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foolishmortal wrote:


You can't put it on a ruin. The ADL and Quad are placed on the table before normal terrain.

You know what... I think this right here is one of the keys to this argument. The real reason folk are arguing for putting the ADL gun where ever they want is so they can place it on top of another Terrain piece. You throw that Quad gun up on top of a 3 story building that gives it a better Cover save than the ADL wall and better LoS and it is a superior weapon... one can argue it would be unfair. My 2 cents is that it is a upgrade of the ADL and thus must follow the rules given in the FAQ that it must be in base to base contact with the ADL. I, of course, would put it /behind/ a wall segment to give it a cover save but still in base to base contact with it.

This also means that your opponent can now put a piece of terrain in front of your ADL gun to block it's LoS. I do not find this satisfactory at all, as it doesn't make sense that the ADL gun would be placed in such a poor place, much less a building was put up after the ADL and crumbled into ruin (or a big rock was placed there, or what have you for terrain options).

To be honest, despite some people arguing semantics with a incredibly loose use of the word 'attached', the easy thing would be for GW to get off of their ass and FAQ the ADL fortifications. This is really starting to feel like the 5th Ed Chaos marine Dreadnaught 'Fire Frenzy' rule. I would like to see GW...

A) Say the gun has to be in base contact with the wall (I read it as this) or not
1A) Then say where you can or can not place it
B) Place Fortifications /after/ terrain
B1) If B is not allowed, allow for the gun to be placed after terrain so the owner still has a clear field of fire (but still attached to the ADL?)
C) Fix the LoS rules concerning the ADL and counting the ADL as a "Friendly unit" so those Sponson weapons on vehicles folk like talking about actually can shoot past it, since 6th has rules vehicle weapon LoS is the gun.

People place Terrain in front of my ADLs all the time

I don't love it, but, it's a game where you try to kill the other guys toys... fair is fair.

I try to place my ADL in a 2x2' with only 1 terrain piece rolled for it. Baring that, there is a minimum distance of 3" but that is still pretty darn close.

You only place before terrain in non tournament games, I find. In a tournament you may be allowed to place your fortification on existing terrain

nosferatu1001 wrote:
You only place before terrain in non tournament games, I find. In a tournament you may be allowed to place your fortification on existing terrain

Yeah, this is why I was kinda taken aback by the realization that the ADL had to be placed before terrain. The people I play with have been doing it wrong and placing it as part of their army... so it could be on top of a hill and the like. Might have been influenced from Tourney play were terrain is placed first and they just didn't realize it.

 BlkTom wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
You only place before terrain in non tournament games, I find. In a tournament you may be allowed to place your fortification on existing terrain

Yeah, this is why I was kinda taken aback by the realization that the ADL had to be placed before terrain. The people I play with have been doing it wrong and placing it as part of their army... so it could be on top of a hill and the like. Might have been influenced from Tourney play were terrain is placed first and they just didn't realize it.

My FLGS does the pre-placed terrain also, but they require you to remove a piece of terrain to place a Fortification.

This is an important consideration for TOs.

Per standard Fortification setup rules in the rulebook, Fortifications can never be on top of other terrain or within 4” (3”?) of it. If, for speed of setup, a TO is using pre-set terrain and allowing Fortifications to be placed after the other terrain, before deployment, the TO really should retain a minimum distance from other terrain in their rules for placing Fortifications.

If the boards have a lot of terrain (luxury) and this minimum distance makes placing Fortifications difficult, a good additional rule is the one Foolishmortal mentioned. For Fortifications to replace an existing item of terrain on the table (swap that out and put it under the table during the game), as again this mimics the rulebook’s rules, in which a Fortification counts as a piece of terrain for terrain density, so a given board section is normally expected to have one fewer piece of regular terrain if it has a Fortification in it.

I still go with the rule books says "add". And if it is being placed anywhere, then it is not added to the ADL. just like the directions for putting on the Com unit with the wall, shows where to attach it, and is to under the "add" section.
Saying that no where in the rules does it say I can't place it where ever I want, is like saying "No where in the rules does it say I can't throw chicken nuggets at the person I am playing"
The gun is with the ADL entry, you pay for it after you buy the ADL and add it to the ADL, as it is worded in the entry.

Waaaghpower wrote:

My point being...
Adding 'Citation Needed' to any argument you disagree with is not a counterpoint. Respond with a logical, thought out opinion, a quote from the rulebook, sure. But at least have an opinion besides "You're wrong."

Ah, excuse me, but Citation needed please.

Lol couldnt resist. Ok on to the meat of the matter!

As I was reading this it came to me: Dedicated transports. Lets take IG chimeras and squads. You can take the squad without purchasing the chimera.
You can take the squad and purchase the chimera, and at the start of the game start the squad inside of the chimera.
You can purchase the squad and the chimera and you dont have to start the game with them inside of it. (Its an option, right?)

I see the ADL and the quad gun in a similar light (now).

On a personal note though I dont see the point in separating the two, but thats just me.

Right. Some folks believe that you "add" a Gun Emplacement or Comm Relay to an Aegis or Bastion the way you select a Dedicated Transport for a unit. The two are still two separate entities, but only take up one Force org slot.

I disagree with that interpretation, but it's not absurd or the equivalent of throwing chicken nuggets.

 Mannahnin wrote:
Right. Some folks believe that you "add" a Gun Emplacement or Comm Relay to an Aegis or Bastion the way you select a Dedicated Transport for a unit. The two are still two separate entities, but only take up one Force org slot.

I disagree with that interpretation, but it's not absurd or the equivalent of throwing chicken nuggets.

The Chicken Nugget comment, when not taken out of context, makes sense. People keep saying "The rules don't say I cant do it" when in fact it does not say you can or can not do it. There are a lot of things the rules do not say you can not do, it does not mean you can or should do it.
Now if someone can come up with a reason for why they can, that is cool. Just saying "Doesn't say I can't" I find that as silly as Chicken Nugget throwing.
I am going with the gun being part of the ADL because the entry says "add"

 RicBlasko wrote:
People keep saying "The rules don't say I cant do it" when in fact it does not say you can or can not do it.

No, that's not what people are saying at all. The rules say very clearly where you can place components of a fortification: in your half of the table and not within X" of another fortification. The actual argument we're making is that the rules don't give any other limits (besides the unit-specific rule about the walls of the ADL forming a single unbroken chain), so the rules DO say that you can put the gun emplacement away from the rest of the ADL.

(And if you disagree with that general ruling, then why did the ADL require its special "unbroken chain" rule to keep you from placing it in several separate places?)

The FAQ clarified/altered the rule to make it so that the sections of the wall have to be placed all in a contiguous formation, instead of just each piece touching at least one other piece.

Another FAQ question refers to the Gun Emplacement as being "attached" to the wall. Some folks read that as just meaning organizationally, and others think it means physically. The latter view seems to be more prevalent, but it's certainly worth clarifying with opponents and TOs locally to your area.

 DeathReaper wrote:

dkellyj wrote:
I would allow you to put your sponsons anywhere you wanted.
Of course I would then ask how you intend to shoot them since they are not an emplaced gun/gun emplacement (so a troop can't walk up to them and fire them) nor attached to a vehicle.

It is a weapon that was bought as an option for the predator, once you nominate the predator to make a shooting attack, the lascannons can shoot as well, as the lascannons were an option for the predator.

 Grey Templar wrote:
If its not on the model you don't have the upgrade. WYSIWYG.

Citation needed. I can not find the WYSIWYG rule in the book.

Also, permissive rule set. As a fortification I am allowed to put the quad-gun anywhere on my table half.

The quad gun is the same fortification as the ADL.

The ADL itself(the actual wall sections) have been clarified to have to be in BtB with at least one other wall section in an unbroken chain. The Quad-gun has no such restriction.

The quad gun is as much a part of the ADL as Sponsons on a predator are a part of that predator, or a meltagun is a part of the model it is an option for.

Sponsons are not given permission to be anywhere. they simply represent an upgrade for the vehicle.

The same applies for the ADL gun.

Thus by inference they have to be on the vehicle(note you can put them wherever you want on the vehicle, barring MFA rules)

The same inference applies to the ADL.

I just wanna say here, there's no pred in any codex where it doesn't say that you just buy the Lascannons, you buy the sponsons. Sponsons are clearly stated to be on the vehicle for which they are bought as you upgrade THAT vehicle with THOSE sponsons. Your own words are Citation Needed fella.

Back on thread: Yes indeed the ADL is a bit confusing and sometimes you will go like WTFFFF and yes those are grey knights and yes that could be grey knight codex chimeras but it could also be imperial guard allies and then have the nice ass camo netting thus giving this guy a reason to claim a 3+ cover.

 Mannahnin wrote:
The FAQ clarified/altered the rule to make it so that the sections of the wall have to be placed all in a contiguous formation, instead of just each piece touching at least one other piece.

Exactly. The WALL sections have to form a single unbroken chain, but the gun emplacement is not a wall section. And, given that it would be "reasonable" and "fluffy" to have the wall sections form a box with the gun in the center (not touching any walls) it can't really be argued that it must have been intended to cover the gun emplacement as well.

 RutgerMan wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

dkellyj wrote:
I would allow you to put your sponsons anywhere you wanted.
Of course I would then ask how you intend to shoot them since they are not an emplaced gun/gun emplacement (so a troop can't walk up to them and fire them) nor attached to a vehicle.

It is a weapon that was bought as an option for the predator, once you nominate the predator to make a shooting attack, the lascannons can shoot as well, as the lascannons were an option for the predator.

 Grey Templar wrote:
If its not on the model you don't have the upgrade. WYSIWYG.

Citation needed. I can not find the WYSIWYG rule in the book.

Also, permissive rule set. As a fortification I am allowed to put the quad-gun anywhere on my table half.

The quad gun is the same fortification as the ADL.

The ADL itself(the actual wall sections) have been clarified to have to be in BtB with at least one other wall section in an unbroken chain. The Quad-gun has no such restriction.

The quad gun is as much a part of the ADL as Sponsons on a predator are a part of that predator, or a meltagun is a part of the model it is an option for.

Sponsons are not given permission to be anywhere. they simply represent an upgrade for the vehicle.

The same applies for the ADL gun.

Thus by inference they have to be on the vehicle(note you can put them wherever you want on the vehicle, barring MFA rules)

The same inference applies to the ADL.

I just wanna say here, there's no pred in any codex where it doesn't say that you just buy the Lascannons, you buy the sponsons. Sponsons are clearly stated to be on the vehicle for which they are bought as you upgrade THAT vehicle with THOSE sponsons. Your own words are Citation Needed fella.

Okay, how about the case of a Hunter killer missile or Storm Bolter as an option for a predator?

It says "May take any of the following" "a storm bolter" "a hunter-killer missile"(143 Codex SM).

Do these have to be connected to the predator? They have similar rules to the ADL and Gun Emplacement that says "Add one of the following"(114 BRB)

Or a Multi melta on a Land Raider it says "May take any of the following...a Multi-Melta" (142 Codex SM). Following the logic of some, it seems that you do not have to add the weapon to the vehicle.

Lol It would be funny to go against a player that at the beginning of the game tells you he took a multi melta...you and then at the end you go Whoa dude! You remember you took the melta and never used it? To which he replies I didnt forget, the meltas in the trunk of the landraider, and you cant fire if you dont have los!

Doh!

Itd be equally funny to see a new player, who follows the RAW verbatim and sees the point cost of the items you can take (or add) but sees no rules telling you where you may place them, and declines purchasing them due to thinking of them as a waste of points because youd just have to hold them in your hand or something.

Just a funny.

I always deploy my Comms away from my aegis and often behind stuff like buildings, afterall it does say in the description of the aegis it could be a defensive structure that is unpacked, so I can put it where ever I want it, and have never had a player complain!... likewise I have seen people place the aegis Quad gun away from the wall, but why not give it a cover save as well?... If its behind the wall then it gets the 3+ as well as the 4++... Even more stupid is the fact you could place the aegis quad gun around the corner of a building away from LOS, then have the model fire the gun from his position in the open while the gun stays safe from enemy fire (As being able to be targeted independently from unit firing it)... Also isn't terrain actually placed after fortifications during the battlefield setup?, I think this is to deliberately stop people placing it on hills, some on a cliff, the other half on the plateau etc, so the road is really not meant to be there as it could offer cover by raising the wall and also disallowing a quad gun to be 3 storeys high or sideways on a rock...

major_payne wrote:
I always deploy my Comms away from my aegis and often behind stuff like buildings, afterall it does say in the description of the aegis it could be a defensive structure that is unpacked, so I can put it where ever I want it, and have never had a player complain!... likewise I have seen people place the aegis Quad gun away from the wall, but why not give it a cover save as well?... If its behind the wall then it gets the 3+ as well as the 4++..

The wall grants 4+ cover. Obviously whether the wall and any added upgrades to it can be deployed deparately is the subject of this thread.

 Mannahnin wrote:

major_payne wrote:
I always deploy my Comms away from my aegis and often behind stuff like buildings, afterall it does say in the description of the aegis it could be a defensive structure that is unpacked, so I can put it where ever I want it, and have never had a player complain!... likewise I have seen people place the aegis Quad gun away from the wall, but why not give it a cover save as well?... If its behind the wall then it gets the 3+ as well as the 4++..

The wall grants 4+ cover. Obviously whether the wall and any added upgrades to it can be deployed deparately is the subject of this thread.

Think he meant he 3+ armour save on it's profile, and the 4+ cover

major_payne wrote:
Even more stupid is the fact you could place the aegis quad gun around the corner of a building away from LOS, then have the model fire the gun from his position in the open while the gun stays safe from enemy fire (As being able to be targeted independently from unit firing it)...

That would be cool if it were possible, but it is not possible.

The Gun Emplacement is terrain. As terrain the Gun Emplacement can not be "around the corner of a building away from LOS" as you have to place terrain 3 inches or further from other or terrain.