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My next tournament list...pretty similar to what I took to the last one, but with a couple of changes and additions.

Eldrad

5 Fire Dragons w/ Exarch, Crack Shot, Tank Hunters, Fire Pike

10 Dire Avengers w/ Exarch, Dual Cats, Bladestorm
Wave Serpent w/ TL SL, ShuriCannon

10 Defenders w/ SL, Warlock, Embolden

10 Defenders w/ SL, Warlock, Embolden

3 GJB w/ Shuri Cannon, Warlock, SS, Embolden

5 Warp Spiders w/ Exarch, Dual Spinners

5 Swooping Hawks w/ Exarch, Skyleap, Sunrifle
3 War Walkers w/ 6 SL's

Wraithlord w/ EML & BL

Wraithlord w/ EML & BL

Aegis w/ Quad Gun

Any thoughts? Pretty infantry heavy. Tau takes this list apart unless I get first turn.

I had some decent success with this list previously. Not sure about the Shuricannons with the defnders, would like to make them SL's and get a warlock for the 3rd squad. Not sure what to drop. Maybe the hawks, but I love the models too much.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
An alternative list sees the the avengers go down to 5 members (inc exarch), to change a squad of defenders to storm guardians, with 2 flamers and a destructor warlock. They then get the wave serpent. Not as good for the drive-by, but it gives me some CC potential (against GEQ at least)

Honestly, Tau takes apart a lot of lists if they go first, not much to do about it imo, unless you can play the reserve game and get a betastrike.

Ok...not much in the way of responses. I'll take that as some positive feedback.

Let me pose a more specifica question then.

In a list such as this, which do you think would provide a better benefit.

Swooping Hawks - skyleap. Dropping bombs and getting linebreaker.
A Wave Serpent for a squad of Dire Avengers - 8 man squad, bladestorm for drive-bys
5 Man squad of pathfinders to sit on a home objective

Well, the thing that sticks out to me is the powerblades on the spider exarch. Don't get me wrong, they are just fine when you have the points, but they are for filling in, not a must include. Drop these off the bat.

Getting your avenger squad to ten models would be a good idea. Bladestorm is a force multiplier, so best to have as many models as possible to use it.

If you drop one of the warlocks you can get scatter lasers for each guardian squad, and have points leftover. Emboldenlocks are nice for foot lords, but that still leaves you 2 psykers for your lords. You are plenty troop heavy, so losing a squad will suck, but you have 5 troops at 1850, so should be okay.

If you are going to take hawks, upgrade the exarches gun. The turn you touchdown for linebreaker, having the ability to actually hurt a squad is nice. Even if you only kill a couple models, the exarch's gun(talon or rifle) will really help. I have come to favor the talon as my meta mostly T4 and resistant/immune to pinning. Both guns have their merits, choose according to points/meta.

Thanks for the advice!

In a recent re-write, I did ditch the -powerblades on the exarch. He's modelled WITH the blades, so hopefully the TA doesn't take issue. I'd also dropped the 3rd warlock to free up points too. All of that put me at 1853, with nothing left I want to shave off :/

I too am a fan of a weapon for the hawks. I did laugh quite maniacly once, when my hawks dropped in, got linebreaker, and the exarch's sunrifle made a tactical squad holding an objective go to ground. But 15 points? Not sure I can find it anywhere.

Potentially I can drop the SL's on the Serpent to Shuricannon. This lets me take 2 EML's & 1 SL with guardian squads, or another avenger, or maybe a sunrifle/talon for the hawk exarch. Too many micromanagement choices!

EMLs are really expensive for crappy shooting Guardians. You have 2 already on your Wraithlords paired with BLs for an ok amount of anti-tank firepower for 6th ed. The point of the Guardians are to absorb shots and mess with objectives. How much killing do you expect from them?

I know you love the Swooping Hawks minis, I do as well and they are one of my favorite paint jobs, but they just lack any tournament appeal to me. They are crazy over pointed, much like all the Fast Attack options, and you don't get much for those points. The points saved by dropping them (132) can be better used somewhere else. You can buy 2 vanilla GJB squads for those points.

bikeroute wrote:
EMLs are really expensive for crappy shooting Guardians. You have 2 already on your Wraithlords paired with BLs for an ok amount of anti-tank firepower for 6th ed. The point of the Guardians are to absorb shots and mess with objectives. How much killing do you expect from them?

I know you love the Swooping Hawks minis, I do as well and they are one of my favorite paint jobs, but they just lack any tournament appeal to me. They are crazy over pointed, much like all the Fast Attack options, and you don't get much for those points. The points saved by dropping them (132) can be better used somewhere else. You can buy 2 vanilla GJB squads for those points.

I do find them to be quite effective. They guarantee me linebreaker should the game end on turn 5, and they can spend turn 2-5 dropping a large blast bolter on anything hiding in the backfield. I also find them useful as something to support the spiders/jetbikes/flanking avengers. Eldar units are fragile enough, I've had great success through using multiple threats in my opponents backfield. Plus, the look on my opponents face when they see swooping hawks is great. Then I get to explain how skyleap works and it just gets more confusion for them.

Edit: You are right about the EML, I had one with guardians because of an extra 5 points. I really need to find a way to re-model my fire dragon exarch to loose the firepike

Original List amended. Warlock might move from the EML squad to the SL squad...but I think this looks good.

A recent re-write has me ditching the EML squad of guardians in favour of; filling the DA's out to 10 and giving them defend, getting a Warlock on a jetbike for the Jetbike squad (with both destructor and a SS), and a few other cheap upgrages. I like this option, as it's 1 less squishy KP for Purge the Alien.

My only worry is that i'll have a lack of scoring units. Only 4 troops choices. I KNOW that we will not be playing the scouring, nor the relic in this tourney. Any thoughts? How many scoring units is....optimal? With this setup, i've got 2 backfield scoring units (guardians), 1 midfield (Avengers) and 1 forward scoring in the jetbikes. Spiders and Hawks are denial units. And potentially the lords and walkers are scoring.

Original List updated, refer there for the entirity.

The lords make amazing scoring units in big guns. T8, 3W 3+ save on an OBJ is brutal.

As for the 4 scoring units - they're good. 4 is ok for 1850. The problem is their squishiness. It will be a matter of making the other things (lords, walkers, hawks, spiders, etc) seem like bigger threats than your T3 4+ at best infantry units.

Also remember that a denial unit can grab you linebreaker. So fun times there!

syranas wrote:
The lords make amazing scoring units in big guns. T8, 3W 3+ save on an OBJ is brutal.

As for the 4 scoring units - they're good. 4 is ok for 1850. The problem is their squishiness. It will be a matter of making the other things (lords, walkers, hawks, spiders, etc) seem like bigger threats than your T3 4+ at best infantry units.

Also remember that a denial unit can grab you linebreaker. So fun times there!

That's exactly what the Hawks are for. Linebreaker and dropping onto objectives on turn 5. I'm trying to find the points for a sunrifle, in the hope that i can pin a unit to deny scoring. Pinned units cannot score, can they?

EDIT: I checked and they still can. Meh. Still, I like seeing the look on my opponents face when I say he has an assault 6 weapon.

Assault 6 on BS5... thats the killer!!! It's good versus DE and IG... and even SoB to an extent, but suffers against T4 and even worse vs T5.

The times I've used hawks I prefer the talon to the rifle. That said I get my kicks from fleshbane AP2 blasts, pie plate and flamer templates that ID on 6's, so an assault 6 gun isn't up my alley.

Pinned units can score, but the extra shots help. I would drop the powerblades for a hawks talon. I know your metal exarch has powerblades modeled, but most people dont't know eldar, and most people wont care that you don't have the wargear modeled on a metal model. The hawks talon will do far more damage, so unless the tournament is run by a WYSIWYG stickler, should be ok. The sunrifle is nice to spam called shots, on the off chance you kill a sarge...still hard to do against marines.

I run my warp spiders all the time sans powerblades. Nobody has noticed to this day.

Edit: Darn you Syranas, beating me to the punch!

LOL Serling. I think we need to take shifts or something!

syranas wrote:
LOL Serling. I think we need to take shifts or something!

Definitely. I've noticed the two of you and I seem to be the resident Eldar experts.

I have ditched the powerblades, and am going to stick to 2 squads of guardians. This lets me take the Jetlock, who can actually cause some damage.

I'll be keeping the sunrifle, it's too fun to get rid of. I'm thinking of remodelling my exarch with one of the old scatter lasers. You know, the gatling gun looking one.

One other quick Q. I've recently mounted my Hawks to they sit on a short bit of brass wire. about an inch long, to give them the swoop in swooping hawks. They now sit about as high as jetbikes. Do you see this as modelling for advantage?

It's more of a disadvantage, as you need higher terrain to hide behind lol.

It's not like a local in Aus that modeled his flying hive tyrant to be wrapped up in its wings, meaning you couldn't actually see the body. Where the rules state you need to see the body, not the wings to have LOS, but due to the wings wrapping around the body, it was impossible to see the body, so you couldn't shoot it at all.

syranas wrote:
It's more of a disadvantage, as you need higher terrain to hide behind lol.

My stance on the matter entirely. Potentially it can be an advantage if there's a hill they wouldn't otherwise see over, but I doubt that would happen particularly often.

Belly wrote:

syranas wrote:
It's more of a disadvantage, as you need higher terrain to hide behind lol.

My stance on the matter entirely. Potentially it can be an advantage if there's a hill they wouldn't otherwise see over, but I doubt that would happen particularly often.

Standard rule - if you can see them (to shoot them) they can see you and probably shoot you back. Hardly an advantage - it's a double edged sword.

As for your list, it looks ok for what your trying to do. I would rather have two DA squads or two Jetbike squads. If you do Jetbike, run them naked or with a Shuri Cannon. I don't feel you need a Warlock for a 3 man squad.

I like the SLs on the Guardians, as the more shots they get, the more it cancels out the BS 3 (you hit so you feel like they are doing something) but you have to get those Wraithlords in cover, because as awesome as T8 and 3+ armor sound, it means a Lascannon wounds on a 3 instead of a 2. Lascannon spam will crush them. You can move and shoot everything, so give each side of the table a item of cover to place them out of LoS Turn 1. You /need/ those Lords for long range AT, so they are your most important unit.

As for Eldrad, I feel his main role is to give Fortune twice, but with your list it looks like Guide twice (on the Lords?) and Fortune on himself or throwing a Doom out there. Who is he sitting with? Eldrad isn't Fearless or anything, so it would suck if you have him camping with some Guardians and you fail your Ld 10 and he runs off the table.

Personally on the ADL, I would drop the Quad for a Icarus. A) It gives you 15pts. B) It gives your Fire Dragon Exarch a weapon to actually kill a tank with on say Turn 1 when he has no Flyers to shoot at. C) Unless they are doing Squadron spam, your killing a Flyer a turn where with the Quad your lucky to kill one. D) You has scatter lasers, you do not need a quad gun E) Eldrad can make him Twin Linked with Guide if you don't fire on the Intercept phase and wait till your turn. Not that a BS 5 needs to be twin linked. Remember if they Zoom, an immobilize result wrecks the flyer. So in effect, your LC is taking out Zooming flyers on a 4+ due to the +1 from AP on the vehicle chart for every penetrating shot

Your Hawks are Quad gun bait (since you have no other flyers) because when they come in with Skyleap, they are coming in from reserves, which gives them a free Intercept shot on them if they come in within LoS of the gun, which means they can be shot off the table before they even make it on because you may not make that awe-inspiring Ld 9 when you lose 25% of your guys, or have enough left to attempt Skyleap a second time. This is why Hawks are not as hot as you think they are. All it takes is someone at your store to figure this out and then everyone will realize it. Then the jig is up.

With a good Tourney list, you need to double up on stuff so if one is taken out, you have back-ups. To be honest, with what your trying to do, I would run Eldrad, 3 10 man Guardian with SL or Shuri Cannon Platform squads, Icarus ADL + Fire Dragons, 2-3 WraithLords/War Walkers and 2 Warp Spider squads. Fill in the rest with 3 man Jetbike Guardian squads. If you want a CC squad, get clowns or Scorpions, but I think your better off with the Jetbikes. I would even look at a second Farseer and take 4 rolls on the Divination list for a 180+ points. In fact, you might be better off with 3 WraithLords instead of the Walker squad just for the top end (high Str) firepower.

Good luck!

 BlkTom wrote:
As for your list, it looks ok for what your trying to do. I would rather have two DA squads or two Jetbike squads. If you do Jetbike, run them naked or with a Shuri Cannon. I don't feel you need a Warlock for a 3 man squad.

I like the SLs on the Guardians, as the more shots they get, the more it cancels out the BS 3 (you hit so you feel like they are doing something) but you have to get those Wraithlords in cover, because as awesome as T8 and 3+ armor sound, it means a Lascannon wounds on a 3 instead of a 2. Lascannon spam will crush them. You can move and shoot everything, so give each side of the table a item of cover to place them out of LoS Turn 1. You /need/ those Lords for long range AT, so they are your most important unit.

As for Eldrad, I feel his main role is to give Fortune twice, but with your list it looks like Guide twice (on the Lords?) and Fortune on himself or throwing a Doom out there. Who is he sitting with? Eldrad isn't Fearless or anything, so it would suck if you have him camping with some Guardians and you fail your Ld 10 and he runs off the table.

Personally on the ADL, I would drop the Quad for a Icarus. A) It gives you 15pts. B) It gives your Fire Dragon Exarch a weapon to actually kill a tank with on say Turn 1 when he has no Flyers to shoot at. C) Unless they are doing Squadron spam, your killing a Flyer a turn where with the Quad your lucky to kill one. D) You has scatter lasers, you do not need a quad gun E) Eldrad can make him Twin Linked with Guide if you don't fire on the Intercept phase and wait till your turn. Not that a BS 5 needs to be twin linked. Remember if they Zoom, an immobilize result wrecks the flyer. So in effect, your LC is taking out Zooming flyers on a 4+ due to the +1 from AP on the vehicle chart for every penetrating shot

Your Hawks are Quad gun bait (since you have no other flyers) because when they come in with Skyleap, they are coming in from reserves, which gives them a free Intercept shot on them if they come in within LoS of the gun, which means they can be shot off the table before they even make it on because you may not make that awe-inspiring Ld 9 when you lose 25% of your guys, or have enough left to attempt Skyleap a second time. This is why Hawks are not as hot as you think they are. All it takes is someone at your store to figure this out and then everyone will realize it. Then the jig is up.

With a good Tourney list, you need to double up on stuff so if one is taken out, you have back-ups. To be honest, with what your trying to do, I would run Eldrad, 3 10 man Guardian with SL or Shuri Cannon Platform squads, Icarus ADL + Fire Dragons, 2-3 WraithLords/War Walkers and 2 Warp Spider squads. Fill in the rest with 3 man Jetbike Guardian squads. If you want a CC squad, get clowns or Scorpions, but I think your better off with the Jetbikes. I would even look at a second Farseer and take 4 rolls on the Divination list for a 180+ points. In fact, you might be better off with 3 WraithLords instead of the Walker squad just for the top end (high Str) firepower.

Good luck!

Some well thought out stuff, but a few things I disagree with;

The lords will each be sitting behind a guardian squad, so the worst case scenario is a 5+ cover save. Eldrad is for fortune twice each turn. On the walkers, and the fire dragon squad. He's with the dragons and potentially will tank wounds with his 3++ reroll. He casts guide on the walkers, or doom on anything he needs to. Depending on my opponent, he might roll with the avengers. Guide is not needed for the lords, their bs4 is hopefully enough...

I'm always going with the quad. Given its primarily for flyers, it's much more effective. With the Fragon exarch on it at least. You should check the math hammer on it before saying things like that. 4 TL shots at bs5, rerolling pens, too good. I do need the quad, I've got bright lances for anti tank, the quad is for flyers and anything <av12 I want dead. Tau pathfinders too.

Walkers are backup anti air.

Hawks are not quad gun bait. They can't be intercepted. I did a search on it,and the common opinion seems to be that they can leave the table before interceptor can be used, as I am the active player. I forget the page, but its a basic principle of the order of things.

I genuinely would like to take another squad of spiders. I love them very much, but I do not have the models nor the time to paint them now... I am very much set on the list as current, but would certainly invite more critism

>

syranas wrote:

Belly wrote:

syranas wrote:
It's more of a disadvantage, as you need higher terrain to hide behind lol.

My stance on the matter entirely. Potentially it can be an advantage if there's a hill they wouldn't otherwise see over, but I doubt that would happen particularly often.

Standard rule - if you can see them (to shoot them) they can see you and probably shoot you back. Hardly an advantage - it's a double edged sword.

There was a time where I could shoot at a group of Cadians because I could easily see the tops of their helmets, but they were burried against a hill and from their eyes...couldn't see ANYTHING on my side of the board. If I'm not mistaken, RAW I can shoot them and they can't shoot me?

And hey, I wanna be an Eldar expert too? I always field Guardians, Hawks, Vipers and Phoenix Lords. WINNING!

Wasn't Blktom saying that they are getting intercepted when you come in, Not when you leave?

You arrive from deep strike, so why couldn't you be intercepted?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Pardon my ignorance but i don't have my Eldar codex with me atm so I'm unable to see why they'd get to avoid being intercepted.

Yes, when they come in. When you use Skyleap you go back into the reserve, and anything coming in from reserve can be fired on via intercept as long as it is within range and LoS.

The game is set with the thought of your average opponent is a space marine. If you can't hurt 3+ armor or T4 troops, your in trouble. You need either AP 3 weapons or high str weapons (and preferably both) to overcome these factors.

The Vendetta is the standard flyer you need to base flyers off of. It is the space marine of flyers. With a quad gun, you pen AV 12 on a 6 and glance on a 5 and then need a 6 to wreck or a 5 to immobilize (Zooming flyers are wrecked on a immobilize). An Icarus pens on a 4+ and glances on a 3+ and wrecks a zooming flyer on a 4+. Mathhammer tells you that your average roll for a d6 is 3.5. Which is closer to the average?
With a BS 5 you need a 2+ to hit, so we will assume all the shots hit. Crack Shot means they don't get a Cover save so I think the rare Invuln save is the only thing we worry about (watch out for those AV 12 Helldrakes with a 5+ Invuln). Even with a re-roll on armor penetration and glances, your averaging at least 2 glancing shots. One of those glancing shots might be a pen, as we are assuming you get a glance 1 out of three rolls (33%) and a pen 1 out of 6 rolls (15%-ish), so the average roll for a quad is 1 glance out of 4 shots, you re-roll the 3 non-glancing shots and get a pen or at least another glance in 7 total dice rolls.
Now that one pen needs a 33% chance of taking out a glancing flyer (5-6). Your not even glancing it to death.
I will take an Icarus any day of the week unless I need the AC firepower for ground targets, because if something has interceptor and skyfire you do not snap shot ground targets. And your list has 2, count them, 2 bright lances that are depending on cover saves to stay alive to do their job... and a lot of stuff can get around cover saves.

This is why, as much as I love war walkers, I suggested a 3rd Wraithlord (and why the Icarus does double duty for you), because str 8 EMLs suck at taking out AV 14.

How is that for Mathhammer?

 BlkTom wrote:
Yes, when they come in. When you use Skyleap you go back into the reserve, and anything coming in from reserve can be fired on via intercept as long as it is within range and LoS.

Yes, but interceptor happens at the end of the movement phase, not straight after the unit is placed. Skyleap ALSO happens at the end of the movement phase. But because I, the Eldar player, is the controlling, active player, I decide the order these things are resolved. Not sure of the page # for the BRB. I think it's like page 14.

The game is set with the thought of your average opponent is a space marine. If you can't hurt 3+ armor or T4 troops, your in trouble. You need either AP 3 weapons or high str weapons (and preferably both) to overcome these factors.

That makes total sense, if the only thing i'm judging units on is their ability to kill marines. But i'm not.

The Vendetta is the standard flyer you need to base flyers off of. It is the space marine of flyers. With a quad gun, you pen AV 12 on a 6 and glance on a 5 and then need a 6 to wreck or a 5 to immobilize (Zooming flyers are wrecked on a immobilize). An Icarus pens on a 4+ and glances on a 3+ and wrecks a zooming flyer on a 4+. Mathhammer tells you that your average roll for a d6 is 3.5. Which is closer to the average?
With a BS 5 you need a 2+ to hit, so we will assume all the shots hit. Crack Shot means they don't get a Cover save so I think the rare Invuln save is the only thing we worry about (watch out for those AV 12 Helldrakes with a 5+ Invuln). Even with a re-roll on armor penetration and glances, your averaging at least 2 glancing shots. One of those glancing shots might be a pen, as we are assuming you get a glance 1 out of three rolls (33%) and a pen 1 out of 6 rolls (15%-ish), so the average roll for a quad is 1 glance out of 4 shots, you re-roll the 3 non-glancing shots and get a pen or at least another glance in 7 total dice rolls.
Now that one pen needs a 33% chance of taking out a glancing flyer (5-6). Your not even glancing it to death.
I will take an Icarus any day of the week unless I need the AC firepower for ground targets, because if something has interceptor and skyfire you do not snap shot ground targets. And your list has 2, count them, 2 bright lances that are depending on cover saves to stay alive to do their job... and a lot of stuff can get around cover saves.

This is why, as much as I love war walkers, I suggested a 3rd Wraithlord (and why the Icarus does double duty for you), because str 8 EMLs suck at taking out AV 14.

How is that for Mathhammer?

I'm sure you've done it just fine. But I did it a bit more specifically, rather than rounding %ages and using 'ish' terms, and the quad cleans up.

STR 8 EML's are quite rubbish at taking out AV14. Thankfully there's not much of it, and in a pinch I can send my hawks, spiders and wraithlords after it. Why would I ditch the walkers? Ask any Eldar player and they will always call them their MVP's.