Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Is finally ready!

I'm disappointed they went with the art. It... just doesn't make sense.

Ramos grows giant spider legs and becomes a super-construct himself.
Rasputina embeds herself in a giant ice constuct and rides it (naked) like a mech.

It's like they ran out of ideas for Hoffman's interaction with constructs and tied him to the arm of a robo-samurai.

I guess there are reasons the Avatars have been controversial. Most of them have been Wyrd's worst designs and sculpts to date (Aside from Sonia and Ramos).

Tbh apart from the Neverborn Avatars (sorry Alf ) I quite like most of the Avatars sculpts. Perhaps the Kirai one is a bit meh but I really like the other 3 resser ones. In particular Seamus'!

I've only read a bit of Fluff in regards to the Hoffman Avatar and if I hadn't seen the artwork I wouldn't of expected the wings! Not sure if that comes up later but I'm only a 3rd through the 3rd book!

Its alright, but just that. Average at best.

Personally, I think that Avatars was Wyrds first stumble.

Emperors_Champion wrote:Tbh apart from the Neverborn Avatars (sorry Alf ) I quite like most of the Avatars sculpts. Perhaps the Kirai one is a bit meh but I really like the other 3 resser ones. In particular Seamus'!

I've only read a bit of Fluff in regards to the Hoffman Avatar and if I hadn't seen the artwork I wouldn't of expected the wings! Not sure if that comes up later but I'm only a 3rd through the 3rd book!

It's okay, I find that out of the 3 Avatars I own, I only like the look of 2 of them. I feel that Dreamer's Avatar is literally flat, I like Pandora (only because I have both "Pandora, Avatar of..." models, and use one of them as my regular Pandora. Sonnia's my favorite avatar, I liked Somer and Peaches simply because it was a pig that farted out other pigs, McMourning and Seamus I like, I could take or leave Nicodem's, Kirai's could have been better. I could ramble on, but you get the point.

Fenrir Kitsune wrote:Its alright, but just that. Average at best.

Personally, I think that Avatars was Wyrds first stumble.

Well their rules are changing! But the sculpts aren't . I generally like the avatars, I don't see them enough though, mostly because the masters that I tend to face (and play) don't gain much benefit from Avatars. If my Pandora crew was regularly getting to the point where mobility wasn't needed but center board control was, I would probably take her more often. *shrugs* to each his own ya know?

If they intentionally left Avatars out of the first rulebook and always planned to come back tom them later, I wonder why they now think its a good idea to have them straight in the rules from the word go.

I know that people have already bought the minis and have a right to use them straight off, but it seems like they are ignoring what they thought was a good idea in the first edition - avatars may be too much for the initial rulebook.

Fenrir Kitsune wrote:
If they intentionally left Avatars out of the first rulebook and always planned to come back tom them later, I wonder why they now think its a good idea to have them straight in the rules from the word go.

I know that people have already bought the minis and have a right to use them straight off, but it seems like they are ignoring what they thought was a good idea in the first edition - avatars may be too much for the initial rulebook.

Probably has something to do more with the fact that Malifaux 2.0 isn't just "new Malifaux" is also moving the story forward. So Book 1 we get introduced to the whole city and it's major player, then we are introduced to the Henchmen and some new masters. The Red Cage falls and the Tyrants are "released" and some of them inhabit a few of our favorite masters and the power of the Red Cage falling has changed our masters. Then with the city of Malifaux in the turmoil that it is, Misaki and the Ten Thunders feel that it's appropriate to reveal themselves since the other factions are a little busy with each other. Malifaux 2.0 we'll see more about the Tyrants as well as those that worship them (See the new Henchman, Herald of Oblivion). It's kind of like how in Warmachine and Hordes when they made the jump from mk1 to mk2, Epic casters that already existed weren't kept out of the initial forces of books. Though I don't see Malifaux doing something like that with their books, but the point is similar

I don't think that's particularly analogous: the Forces of ~ books contained every entry in each faction (minus mercs and the very few that counted as two factions and were presented as the other).

The more basic 1:1 comparison would be if they had put epics in the core rules, except the only rule epics actually have specific to them are warjack bonds..

The more appropriate comparison would have been if they added the notably different types of models (cavalry and character jacks are probably most notable) to the core book.

 spiralingcadaver wrote:
I don't think that's particularly analogous: the Forces of ~ books contained every entry in each faction (minus mercs and the very few that counted as two factions and were presented as the other).

The more basic 1:1 comparison would be if they had put epics in the core rules, except the only rule epics actually have specific to them are warjack bonds..

The more appropriate comparison would have been if they added the notably different types of models (cavalry and character jacks are probably most notable) to the core book.

But at the same time they could have staggered mk1 released epics out through the Core, the Forces of, Wrath, Domination, Colossals, Gargantuans, etc... So if you used to play eKreoss in mk2, you might have to wait until Wrath before you could get the mk2 rules of your eKreoss. Instead they released already released material in a book that was released at the same time as the release of Mk2 rules. Malifaux doesn't do that... in the end, my point was. "Avatars exist already in the game." and "Epic Casters already exist in the game" and "Malifaux advances the story with each book" and "Warmachine/Hordes advances the story with each book."

In my mind it doesn't make sense to take something that already exists in the game and to hold off on releasing it until another book if models are all released (they're not resculpting any of them to my knowledge) and all that's happening is a rules and mechanics change.

If they can make it work than fair play to them, but I still feel it has the potential for rules overload in what is going to be the basic starter book.

Fenrir Kitsune wrote:
If they can make it work than fair play to them, but I still feel it has the potential for rules overload in what is going to be the basic starter book.

I don't see Avatars as being a rules overload, look at book 3 (seriously, please look cause I don't have mine on me and I'm also curious) how many rules did the Manifest and Avatar rules actually take up? Like 4 at the most? I don't see 2 extra spreads adding a rules overload to the book.

 Alfndrate wrote:

Fenrir Kitsune wrote:
If they can make it work than fair play to them, but I still feel it has the potential for rules overload in what is going to be the basic starter book.

I don't see Avatars as being a rules overload, look at book 3 (seriously, please look cause I don't have mine on me and I'm also curious) how many rules did the Manifest and Avatar rules actually take up? Like 4 at the most? I don't see 2 extra spreads adding a rules overload to the book.

Well, the avatars themselves are a decent slab of the book (at least 40-45 pages considering minimum two pages per master, been a while since I last looked) and TBH I'm thinking of the interviews I read and listened to at the time of book 3's release where wyrd themselves (Eric J, I think) said that they left avatars out of the main rulebook rules as they thought it was too much for one go.

Still trying to say that Malifaux suffers from rules bloat is a bit Canute at the best of times.

Fenrir Kitsune wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:

Fenrir Kitsune wrote:
If they can make it work than fair play to them, but I still feel it has the potential for rules overload in what is going to be the basic starter book.

I don't see Avatars as being a rules overload, look at book 3 (seriously, please look cause I don't have mine on me and I'm also curious) how many rules did the Manifest and Avatar rules actually take up? Like 4 at the most? I don't see 2 extra spreads adding a rules overload to the book.

Well, the avatars themselves are a decent slab of the book (at least 40-45 pages considering minimum two pages per master, been a while since I last looked) and TBH I'm thinking of the interviews I read and listened to at the time of book 3's release where wyrd themselves (Eric J, I think) said that they left avatars out of the main rulebook rules as they thought it was too much for one go.

Still trying to say that Malifaux suffers from rules bloat is a bit Canute at the best of times.

The avatar model rules of course are going to take up large chunks of the page. I'm talking about the rules on manifesting avatars, and how they work. I also don't see them including all of the model stats in the rulebook, or else we're looking at a BRB 40k style

I wouldn't of thought that they'll be including all the model rules in the book as well. Like Alf said, that'd be huge! Specially with the Faction Packs coming out there isn't really a need. Maybe a few pages of summaries perhaps? Maybe they'll do Faction Books? Actually I'd happily buy the Resser one if only for the artwork and fluff!

 Alfndrate wrote:

 spiralingcadaver wrote:
I don't think that's particularly analogous: the Forces of ~ books contained every entry in each faction (minus mercs and the very few that counted as two factions and were presented as the other).

The more basic 1:1 comparison would be if they had put epics in the core rules, except the only rule epics actually have specific to them are warjack bonds..

The more appropriate comparison would have been if they added the notably different types of models (cavalry and character jacks are probably most notable) to the core book.

But at the same time they could have staggered mk1 released epics out through the Core, the Forces of, Wrath, Domination, Colossals, Gargantuans, etc... So if you used to play eKreoss in mk2, you might have to wait until Wrath before you could get the mk2 rules of your eKreoss. Instead they released already released material in a book that was released at the same time as the release of Mk2 rules. Malifaux doesn't do that... in the end, my point was. "Avatars exist already in the game." and "Epic Casters already exist in the game" and "Malifaux advances the story with each book" and "Warmachine/Hordes advances the story with each book."

In my mind it doesn't make sense to take something that already exists in the game and to hold off on releasing it until another book if models are all released (they're not resculpting any of them to my knowledge) and all that's happening is a rules and mechanics change.

I read this five times. I officially have no idea what you were responding to, because those words don't make sense toi me. And, my level of confusion makes it so I'm not even sure what you were saying before this or after it.

 spiralingcadaver wrote:
I read this five times. I officially have no idea what you were responding to, because those words don't make sense toi me. And, my level of confusion makes it so I'm not even sure what you were saying before this or after it.

Just read the last section.

Oh, that does clarify stuff, yeah, that example/comparison was incredibly confusing.

Yes, I would be surprised if any game held back releases... 40k's 3rd edition is probably the closest I'd ever expect to rules not being available.

 spiralingcadaver wrote:
Oh, that does clarify stuff, yeah, that example/comparison was incredibly confusing.

Yes, I would be surprised if any game held back releases... 40k's 3rd edition is probably the closest I'd ever expect to rules not being available.

It made sense when I wrote it, but at that point I had just finished staring at 2100 different Safety Data Sheets looking for minor discrepancies...

heh, fair enough.

 Absolutionis wrote:

I guess there are reasons the Avatars have been controversial. Most of them have been Wyrd's worst designs and sculpts to date (Aside from Sonia and Ramos).

Personally, I absolutely Love Colette's avatar models . She is by far my favorite master (and only one I've actually bought and played), to each his own and all that.