Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Ok, so I have a buddy of mine at my club who, from time to time, likes to play daemons and invariably ends up with several monstrous creatures some of which are T9 most of the game (through iron arm). For the most part my IG list isn't running around with S9 guns. I'll run three vendettas and some plasma but even then rolling on 4s to wound with not that many guns sucks. I don't want to completely gear my army up against something like that but what else does IG have that works well against high T? I was thinking about throwing in a squad of ratlings. Cheap and get good cover saves but their LD is the pits. Suggestions?

While guard traditionally has a bit of a weak spot when fighting monstrous creatures, ratlings really aren't the answer. The only thing interesting about their firepower is rending, which demon players basically ignore on most of their units.

In this case, you were already on the right track with lascannons and plasma weapons. Wounding on 3's and 4's with plasma guns may not be as good as you'd like, but sniper weapons are still only wounding on 4's, and they don't ignore armor saves on those few demon units who have armor, nor can sniper rifles handle chariots.

Regimental Banner usually solves the LD problem. Honestly, they are a solution to a lot of IG's problems. They snipe special weps out of squads, they kill MCs cost effectively, and they can operate on their own. For only 10 points each, they are a steal. People exalt Rangers, which are almost identical but 19 points each though they are troops.

Edit: While lascannons and plasma can deal with MCs, you are paying a lot more for those options. 115 for vets with 3 plasma that do .8 wounds at 24 or 1.6 within 12 (this was excluding iron arm) or ratlings that do 1.7 at any range for 100 points. Factor in iron arm, and ratlings look a LOT better

You said it already. Ratlings. 10 points for a weapon that hits on 3's and wounds on 4's. If there's an armor save involved, then you also get rends, but that's unusual for Daemons.

You can address the leadership problem in a couple ways. The best answer is probably a Lord Commissar. Not only do you get a 12" bubble of Ld10 Stubborn, you also get a Warlord that doesn't fall over in a stiff breeze. If you've got access to Forgeworld, pick up some Artillery models and stick the Warlord in there -- he'll pick up the unit's automatic "majority" T7 and be much harder to kill. And of course, one of Artillery's primary disadvantages is their poor leadership.

You can also just take the Ratlings in a minimum size squad. Sure, you'll have to take a leadership test every time you lose a model, but you're only losing one or two models anyway.

Good luck with the Daemons.

But rangers rend twice as often, and have an additional source of Ap1. They're much more easily worth the cost, especially since they score, and they come in a codex that doesn't have much else by means of troops choices to get excited about.

Anyways, something else to consider here is HWSs. Normally, these things are awful given their total lack of durability, but you're talking about an army that doesn't have much long range shooting

Rangers dont rend twice as often. They go to AP1 on the TO HIT roll of 6. Which then needs a 4 to wound. Still only rend on 6s to wound, meaning that they rend 1.3 times as much (since the 6 to wound would rend anyways).

HWS with what weapon vs MCs? Lascannons? Autocannons? both wont do much of anything. Even 3x lascannons with Bring It Down. are looking at 1.25 wounds

Ailaros, we're talking about Daemons. A sniper rifle is equivalent to a Lascannon against a T9 model with no armor save. But the lascannon costs 35 points per shot, while the sniper rifle costs 10.

Also, Rangers don't "rend twice as often." They're AP1 on 6 to hit and Rend on 6 to wound. While both of these ignore armor saves (which may have been what you meant), they're not equivalent. And that AP1 shot needs a further 4+ to wound. That's 8/36 of your shots to get either result, which is way less than double.

Your mathhammer has gotten really sloppy lately, and I'm calling you on it.

With ratlings against a monstrous creature with power armor a squad of 10 is only putting down 1.45 wounds. And it can't hurt demon vehicles, nor can it cause instant death onto things like khorne dogs.

Meanwhile, look at a CCS with 4x plasma guns. If they pass BiD, you're spending 110 points (so, basically the same as the ratlings), and you're throwing down over 3 wounds on that bloodthirster. That's the difference between annoying it before it rips your army apart or killing it dead with a little help at close range.

Also, if you're coming across flying demons then perhaps a single hydra is in order. Not so much to do damage by itself, but to force grounding tests, which are more likely to do damage, and if it keeps them walking, then it would certainly be worth it.

.94 unsaved normal wounds
.73 unsaved rends

Ratlings are BS4, not 3

CCS with 4x plasma guns do 3 wounds only when inside 12". Most Demon players understand plasma, and Bloodthirsters have a 13-24" charge range. Also, a CCS with plasma start losing effectiveness after taking only a few wounds (plasma overheats also whittle down the squad fast too). While demons dont have much shooting, putting a few wounds on T3 5+ guardsmen is doable. Even with an aegis line, you are still going to be taking a few wounds. Not only are you the primary target because of order, but you also now have special weps in the highest concentration in your army. There is a reason very few people take lots of special weps on their CCS.

I think one issue here that people are ignoring is that bringing ratlings is basically tailoring towards demons. There is no other time that ratlings are remotely useful (sorry they don't pick out special weapons or sergeants nearly as much as people say).
I guess if you're OK with tailoring, then ratlings might not be a terrible choice. However some people prefer to bring TAC lists that can handle anything, rather than bringing a garbage niché unit for one opponent.

Griddielol: A very fair point. But while people are generally unhappy with tailoring to a specific opponent, tailoring to a meta is often considered kosher. If these daemons are a significant percentage of what he has to deal with, Ratlings may very well be the answer.

That's quite true, and completely understandable. However I believe OP specified that it was a single opponent, so a more TAC approach would be preferable in my opinion.
Not that I have the answer, other than slapping in some SW allies to stop 50% of those iron arms going off...

zephoid wrote:Ratlings are BS4, not 3

Big demons can take power armor.

zephoid wrote:There is a reason very few people take lots of special weps on their CCS.

Not taking cheap weapon upgrades because their carriers might get killed is pretty much the opposite of how the imperial guard works.

Furthermore, "very few people"? Ignoring the ad populum for a moment, I don't think I've ever seen a decent guard list that brought a CCS without weapons, much less all the time.

Griddlelol wrote:I think one issue here that people are ignoring is that bringing ratlings is basically tailoring towards demons. There is no other time that ratlings are remotely useful

True, but the fact that the OP created a post all but entitled "help me beat demons" rather implies that he's looking to do list tailoring.

Not that list tailoring is a bad thing in the first place. If he needs to play the game in easy mode to beat someone, that's his prerogative.

 Ailaros wrote:
Big demons can take power armor.

As a random greater reward, yes. Which happens 1/6 of the time. And even if they get it, they've still got a 5+ invuln behind it, which means you're only doubling your wounds by ignoring the armor save, not tripling it.

 Griddlelol wrote:
That's quite true, and completely understandable. However I believe OP specified that it was a single opponent, so a more TAC approach would be preferable in my opinion.
Not that I have the answer, other than slapping in some SW allies to stop 50% of those iron arms going off...

It's worth noting that Rune Priests also have a force weapon that wounds Daemons on 2's. If you can negate their Iron Arm roll, that same Runic Weapon can kill them outright. Of course, since Great Unclean Ones are also I4, that usually means mutually assured destruction. But if you feed the GUO some sergeants while waiting for the right time to challenge, it can be worth sacrificing the Rune Priest to kill the MC.

 Griddlelol wrote:
That's quite true, and completely understandable. However I believe OP specified that it was a single opponent, so a more TAC approach would be preferable in my opinion.
Not that I have the answer, other than slapping in some SW allies to stop 50% of those iron arms going off...

Yep, it's pretty much just one guy out of 7 or so. Normally I wouldn't 'tailor' my list but 100 points at the 1850 levels didn't seem too significant a point sink to assist in those high toughness situations. It was the "Great Unclean One" that was running around the board giving me fits because I was spending a lot of shooting on him and not getting anywhere.

To be fair, they're not just useful against Daemons. They're also useful against the Tyranids and the Tau's new Riptide.

 Griddlelol wrote:
I think one issue here that people are ignoring is that bringing ratlings is basically tailoring towards demons. There is no other time that ratlings are remotely useful (sorry they don't pick out special weapons or sergeants nearly as much as people say).
I guess if you're OK with tailoring, then ratlings might not be a terrible choice. However some people prefer to bring TAC lists that can handle anything, rather than bringing a garbage niché unit for one opponent.

MC's are popping up more often, and more armies have a way of bringing them. A ratling squad is a cheap throwaway unit that can put wounds on them just as well as far more expensive units can. They have a place in an all-comers list, more now than ever before. It's not a highly recommended place, but it certainly has it's uses.

Ailaros wrote:

Not that list tailoring is a bad thing in the first place.

Remember, your tailoring and most peoples' definition of tailoring are two different things. Although bringing a single squad of ratlings probably wouldn't fall under the "hard tailoring" as I define it.

Personally I've found the flying circus pretty difficult to deal with as an IG/SW list, with the win/loss against the hyper-competitive builds around 50%.
However one thing I have found is that against daemons going first is a huge advantage, especially if you have a drop pod (which in part explains the 50% win:loss). In those games I've gone first, my suicide melta WG tend to net a kill or at least strip most of the wounds from a greater daemon (or TMC) before iron arm is even cast. If only there were a way for guard to do this - since it's an amazing tactic against just about any opponent considering the overlap between anti-MC and anti-tank weaponry.

Remember those 100pts spent on ratlings won't fix the problem. They might help a little, but to really have an effect you'd probably want to spend a little more. Also those FMCs have to be knocked out the sky before you can deal with them. However bringing more plasma/melta could have a similar effect.

10*2/3=6.66 hits, 1.11 rend, 2.77 regular wounds
1.11*2/3=.73
2.77/3=.94
Math, its hard, i know.

Taking special weps in vet squads give you 7 ablative wounds. Taking it in a CCS means possible 2 ablative wounds on the commander, if he isnt ID'd.

Out of the top 5 lists in the army list section
1 has 4 plasma CCS
1 has LC/reg
1 has reg
1 has Commissar lord
1 has AC/vox.

So yes, no one takes no upgrades in a CCS, but putting something on every dude is only 1/4 of the CCS. And that list was mech. Ablative wounds are important, especially if the opponent tries to go for the warlord kill.

As i said, ratlings fill a lot of problems guard have. Not just vs demons. Vs nids they are very effective at putting wounds on MCs.

VS DE they are effective vs both coven and venom spam. They dont hurt venoms much, but they can clean up squads inside at range and most DE are LD8 or worse.

VS marines you have ~2 wounds per turn on any MEQ squad, a pinning check, and an average of a little over 1 precise shot per shooting. Not the best, but that can work vs artillery, devis, or tac/assault squads. In ~3 rounds of shooting they will almost always make their points back and give the guard player a lot of tactical ability in addition to pure damage.

VS demons they are effective, as mentioned

VS Eldar they are good vs any Wraithlord and above average vs wraithguard. Each round of shooting they are killing ~1 wraithguard (5.55/9 regular, 1.111/(4/9) rending)

Ratlings are not tailoring. Ratlings are simply useful and underrated.

Griddlelol wrote:Remember, your tailoring and most peoples' definition of tailoring are two different things. Although bringing a single squad of ratlings probably wouldn't fall under the "hard tailoring" as I define it.

Well right, it's a spectrum. I don't see much point in cutting an arbitrary line and saying that some of it is bad and some of it isn't.

Griddlelol wrote:Remember those 100pts spent on ratlings won't fix the problem.

Right. Let's keep some perspective - 100 point isn't a whole lot of points. You should really only expect them to do a relatively minor amount of damage. A 100 point ratling squad isn't exactly going to one-shot a 180 point riptide.

Especially when they're just armed with sniper rifles.

Avengers are much better at gutting monstrous creatures than Ratlings. An avenger can pretty much point at any of my TMCs and tell me "remove that one" while Ratling squads tend to end up lining my Trygons' gullets.

Well my philosophy is that if you're going to bring snipers at all, you might as well bring ratlings, especially given that those Elite slots for an Imperial Guard Army aren't especially stressed. I usually solve their bad leadership by having a Lord Commissar attached to a Company Command Squad so every order that the CCS issues is tested on Ld10 - also great for issuing orders to Heavy Weapon Squads.

I'm pretty sure daemon princes can buy power armor, and it's not random for them. TBH, I don't own the daemons codex but I know CSM ones can. The point being, that 3+ armor is a real possibility and will ignore a good chunk of your sniper rounds.
However, the real question is this: why, in a codex with vast amounts of plasma and melta, vendettas, and sabre defense platforms (if you're into that) would you choose to take ratlings?! The issue isn't that they won't do anything to a FMC. It's that so many other things will do at least as well and also be more than situationally useful. It sounds like the OP is on the right path, he just needs to bring more of the same. And if it's just the GUO that's giving you problems, you can try to ignore it.

As far as allies go, the rune priest is a good option for negating the iron arm. Another option for the monsters without eternal warrior would be GK allies: Take Coteaz or maybe even a librarian for extra melee punch and a squad of termies with hammers and a warding staff. The librarian can cast hammerhand and prescience, so you'll have S10 AP2 force weapons re-rolling misses with preferred enemy: daemons. Also, if you charge the daemon will be I1 that turn. Have the warding stave tank the attacks on a 2++. Said setup (with libby) will run you 375 pts...but it will do way more damage reliably than 37 ratlings ever will.

Well if allies are on the table, then just take a dreadknight. A jumping monstrous creature with a torrent weapon and a special ability that strips demons of all their gifts.

 Griddlelol wrote:
I think one issue here that people are ignoring is that bringing ratlings is basically tailoring towards demons. There is no other time that ratlings are remotely useful (sorry they don't pick out special weapons or sergeants nearly as much as people say).
I guess if you're OK with tailoring, then ratlings might not be a terrible choice. However some people prefer to bring TAC lists that can handle anything, rather than bringing a garbage niché unit for one opponent.

A squad of Dark Angels snipers took out my Biker Painboy in one round of shooting 1st turn which radically altered the effectiveness of that unit. I still won but it was dicey there for awhile and it made me a nervous Warboss.

Ok, but what about all those times the snipers don't get ridiculously lucky? Anecdotal evidence is great for highlighting something that needs to be rethought, but snipers are demonstrably weak.

The best thing the Snipers have going for them is that there cheep. 3 guys for 30pts they can fire the Agies guns with a decent BS. And there Space Hobbits so you can name them Bilbo or Frodo or some other cool name.

The 2 previous comments are good. Yes it was very lucky for them, and unlucky for me, but since IG snipers are so cheap, 10 for 100, it they perform "meh" who cares? But when they do perform well, they can do incredible, pinpoint things that other units can't, at range, in cover.

I started using Lobbas as "grot snipers" thanks to the barrage rules. 84 points for 3 Str 5 AP 5 small blasts a turn was enough of a nuisance for a Demon Prince to assault them just to get rid of the (they also happen to be scoring that game due to Big Guns Never Tire). This is after they not only more then made their points back 3 times over, but also got me First Blood and took 2 Troops units out sitting on 2 separate objectives.

Don't have my Codex at work. Do ratings start off with Camo Cloaks or Stealh or do they pay for it?

Point is for IG it just one more cheap MSU PITA unit sitting in cover that can change the game that an opponent has to deal with at some point.

Ratlings come with stealth standard.

Problem with Ratlings is, like everything else in the Guard codex if its not troops, artillery, or fliers its overcosted.

Ratlings are almost worth it to take in small squads just to deny enemy infiltrators their choice terrain. The sniper rifle is underwhelming and the ratling with T2 and LD6 means they will not be in the fight for long.

Ratlings is still one of my favorite units but in competetive games they need to stay on the shelf with my Stormtroopers and Ogyrns.

e; redundant answer to the stealth question sorry, ignore this~