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 ghastli wrote:
I run vets in chimeras in every list and I have one suggestion: Don't get out too early. I have had problems with jumping the vets out the first chance I got and not having any scoring units left in the late turns. They are not eldar fire dragons, you actually want them to stick around.

Also, some feedback I received on a battle report I posted was to not spread out the tank line. If you concentrate your force in an area and dominate it, you might not get picked apart. A lot of armies think twice before charging into a parking lot.

Then the only problem is you're a setting duck for pie plates. They love parking lots.
Not to mention deep strikers could making it hard to spread out later.

You should never have your vets leave a chimera period. The only time you break this rule is turn 5 to jump on an objective.

BrotherOfBone wrote:

 RegulusBlack wrote:
Vendetta's are a good to great unit but have drawbacks.

you have a maximum of 4 turns in a 5 turn game.
allying with anyone that can affect reserve rolls (guard CCS) makes your Vendetta's much weaker. if against warlord trait that affects reserves, might not get them in at all.
even if you take 3 vendetta's (approx 20% of a 2k list) thats only 3 vehicles that "usually" arrive sporadically.
even with BS3 twin linked you are only hitting 4-5 times out of 6 shots (with my luck it was 3 shots ), you can count on some getting through but even against AV12 they arent automatic killers, vs. hordes they are abyssmal
tactically "always going second" seems a bit trite when dealing with other flier armies.
New Tau can eat a flier army for breakfast, lunch and dinner.
positioning/angling for maximum effective attacks can be a bit cumbersome as the models take up a lot of room.
i have found 1st-2nd turn shooting makes a world of differnece in guard (game is usually won there) with Vens possibly out for those critical turns things can turn nasty quick.

(2) Hydra's (1 with camo) behind a quad gun give them as much survivability as 2 Vens for almost the same cost, and they are on the field turn 1.
Hydra can zap those pesky FMC much better than a Vendetta (volume of fire vs. inv save) point for point, and if you get necron focusing on hydra's for a turn thats usually only 2 turns remaining of getting shot at by other stuff.
Hydra's destroy Skimmers.

personal opinion, i switched from vendetta's (3) to flamer tanks and Hydra's (Tau are wrecking me), i believe the loss of Scout severley hurt the way i played my plasma/melta airborne ranger units, a flanking vehicle that drops its payload litterally anywhere on the field and killy troops to zap whatever you need was what made the Vendetta primo.

Hydra's are not "better" they just do the job differently.

If you need to get troops deployed for maximum effectiveness, Drop Pod GH work much better than Vendetta grunts.

Name a single horde army that doesn't have an AV14 vehicle (COUGH ORKS), big, killy MCs (COUGH TYRANIDS) or some nice tank squadrons to crack (COUGH IMPERIAL GUARD). There's no such thing as an army without heavy support, if they don't have it, they'll lose anyway. In my opinion, Vendettas are much better than Hydras because they're harder to kill, have a transport capacity, and have 3 TL Lascannons! What's there to not want?? And, if you're worried about hordes then give them missiles.. -_- And I think Vendettas are worth the wait to be honest, as they'll be coming on around the same time your opponent's flyers will (and even if its a turn later, flyers are just hard to kill, they're not normally heavy-hitters), and, if all else fails... THEN TAKE AN AEGIS DEFENSE LINE. I don't understand why people never take these for anti-air in an Imperial Guard army, they provide a neat cover save for your tanks and artillery, and they can shoot down aircraft! What's not to like? Well, just a few tips from a long-time Imperial Guard player..

You've really never seen a horde army without armoured support? Granted I've read a lot more from 5th edition than 6th edition, but I read of plenty of instances of Imperial Guard armies in particular running zero vehicles, and more instances where the only armour was a Basilisk sitting behind cover behind the whole horde army. One of the theoretical strengths of an all-foot list, especially in IG, was that it invalidated a lot of your opponent's choices. Granted in 6th edition it seems like lower-strength, more frequently firing weapons like Autocannons are preferred over high-strength, slower weapons like Lascannons unlike 5th edition, I would think that the theory still holds water. 'sides, drowning the enemy in bodies is a really cool way to play IG ^_^

Actually autocannons are largely considered useless in 6th. Most people have moved on to lascannons now.

Also your own example (basilisk behind aegis) is a great target for a vendetta as you will probably not get a cover save from the vendetta due to not having 25% of it in cover from a vendetta's vantage.

Most lists besides orks now have something worth targeting with a vendetta. Even orks usually have a battle wagon, mega nobz, or if you are desperate the quadd gun/lootas behind their aegis line. Honestly the transport capacity on an AV12 flyer is worth about as much as 2 chimeras (it takes 2 to get a squad where it needs to go with the same surety as a vendetta). The 3 TL lascannons are really just gravy on top and if someone actually bothered to bring AA then you now have a target worth killing.

I always take the HB sponsons on my Dettas for just the reason mentioned above. They will clear out light Infantry so much better than Lascannons do and being a flyer it can shot 4 guns when moving anyways so if your targeting somthing with AV10-11 you can pull off a lucky pot shot anyways. Also if you by chance suffer a weapon destoied result there is a 2/5 chance you will keep a Lascannon. Worth the 10pts if ask me I always get use out of mine.

My previous post was not to dismiss Vendetta's as a solid choice for the FA slot, i think between that and anything else in the FA slot hands down Vens outperform.

My post was to try and help clarify to original poster that Vens are not an automatic i win button, and that they do have drawbacks (which for most people is negated by their tremendous upsdie)

I personally hate playing them without the flanking ability, front armor against 13, or even 12 is sporadic at best (for my rolling anyway) i would rather have more plasma weapons on the ground than anything else since my tournament meta is necrons/marines/GK, superior firepower wins more games for me than sporadic anti tank weapons.

again how i play is not necessarily the best for everyone.

 Guardsmen Bob wrote:
HQ: Company Command Squad
3 Company Command Squad, = (Meltagun x3)
1 Company Commander,
1 Chimera, = (Multi + Heavy Flamer)

Troops: Veteran Squad
8 Veteran Squad, = (Meltagun x2 + Plasma gun x1)
1 Veteran Sergeant,
1 Chimera, (Multi + Heavy Flamer)

Troops: Veteran Squad
8 Veteran Squad, = (Meltagun x3)
1 Veteran Sergeant,
1 Chimera, (Multi + Heavy Flamer)

Troops: Veteran Squad
8 Veteran Squad, = (Meltagun x3)
1 Veteran Sergeant,
1 Chimera, (Multi + Heavy Flamer)

Heavy Support: Leman Russ Squadron
1 Leman Russ Squadron,
1 Leman Russ Exterminator, = (Lascannon + Multi-melta Sponsons x2)

Heavy Support: Leman Russ Squadron
1 Leman Russ Squadron,
1 Leman Russ Exterminator, = (Lascannon + Multi-melta Sponsons x2)

1000 points, highly mobile, many scoring units, and packing a lot of Melta. Your list seems fine. At 1000 points you won't see many flyers.

 Guardsmen Bob wrote:
This is the list I am currently running. Also to clarify a bit about my battles, all have been team. My first one (a 3v3) I had to leave early and they lost. The next was a 2v2 (IG vs IG) and our side lost by one point. The next was a 2v2 (IG vs the new Tau) And the last one was also a 2vs1, me and another newish guy verse a veteran (who helped out with the rules we forgot) in a 2k battle against his necron (IG+DA vs Nec).
Mainly the list I ran previously was this one; minus the tanks, one vet team, and with melta and flamers. Hope this helps clearing some things up.

...

Haven't had a 1v1 yet, perhaps it's just dice roll luck and my more experienced opposition instead of just my tactics?

And now we found the problem. Few questions:

1) For these multiplayer games were they organized a head of time (so everyone knew they were multiplayer) or were they just pick up games because of lack of table space?
2) Any idea if any of your allies had any Flyers or Skyfire units of their own?

Your list is a strong 1000 point list. But you are playing 2000 and 3000 point games as part of a team. Particularly with regards to the 2v1 game, you are potentially at a disadvantage because your team's lists have no synergy.

Really, I think you are putting the cart before the horse here. You are still learning. Multiplayer games isn't the best way to learn IMO, since the game isn't really designed for it (though the Allies rules helps a bit with that). Also, you are only a few games in so you'll be surprised later when there were tricks you possibly could have done that would have made a difference, and you just didn't know about them.

If it were me, I'd try to get in more 1v1 games first or get the games organized with some of the other players so you and your team can build a list that works together.


With regards to the Vendetta argument: Vendettas w/ Heavy Bolters are an awesome deal at 140 points. They open up a lot of things. Its the most efficient unit for anti-air for IG. That said, they aren't going to just magically blow away every enemy Flyer. Heck, two Vendettas firing 6 TL Lascannons at a Helldrake have only a 40% chance of destroying it outright, and its likely to heal some of the HP lost if you don't pull that off.

I mostly play Space Wolves, and for me maneuvering of my forces and volume of S7 fire has been far more reliable and overall better at dealing with enemy Flyers than relying on a squadron of Allied Vendettas. The enemy Flyer isn't coming on the board until Turn 2 at the earliest, so move it quick with those Chimeras. Keep in mind where there is busy terrain (like small forests or ruins) and flat terrain, and the enemy's board edge.

You'd be surprised at how easy it is to limit the available movement of a Flyer. They have to move minimum 18 inches, in a straight line. If you can't put the base down because trees are in the way then you have to move enough to avoid it. It also has to remain 1" away from your units. Even with somewhat sparse terrain you can funnel enemy Flyers into sub-par flight paths and limit what shooting they can do.

Really, Vector Striking Helldrakes and bombs are almost all you have to worry about. I think the Death Ray can fire behind the Necron Flyer so this will be less useful for him, but its still AV11 only. All those S6+ weapons can just unload on him once he is on the board. Even with Snapfire you have enough shots you are likely doing something to him, and he only has 2-4 turns to make an impact.

Really, I think you are putting the cart before the horse here. You are still learning. Multiplayer games isn't the best way to learn IMO, since the game isn't really designed for it (though the Allies rules helps a bit with that). Also, you are only a few games in so you'll be surprised later when there were tricks you possibly could have done that would have made a difference, and you just didn't know about them.

If it were me, I'd try to get in more 1v1 games first or get the games organized with some of the other players so you and your team can build a list that works together.


With regards to the Vendetta argument: Vendettas w/ Heavy Bolters are an awesome deal at 140 points. They open up a lot of things. Its the most efficient unit for anti-air for IG. That said, they aren't going to just magically blow away every enemy Flyer. Heck, two Vendettas firing 6 TL Lascannons at a Helldrake have only a 40% chance of destroying it outright, and its likely to heal some of the HP lost if you don't pull that off.

I mostly play Space Wolves, and for me maneuvering of my forces and volume of S7 fire has been far more reliable and overall better at dealing with enemy Flyers than relying on a squadron of Allied Vendettas. The enemy Flyer isn't coming on the board until Turn 2 at the earliest, so move it quick with those Chimeras. Keep in mind where there is busy terrain (like small forests or ruins) and flat terrain, and the enemy's board edge.

You'd be surprised at how easy it is to limit the available movement of a Flyer. They have to move minimum 18 inches, in a straight line. If you can't put the base down because trees are in the way then you have to move enough to avoid it. It also has to remain 1" away from your units. Even with somewhat sparse terrain you can funnel enemy Flyers into sub-par flight paths and limit what shooting they can do.

Really, Vector Striking Helldrakes and bombs are almost all you have to worry about. I think the Death Ray can fire behind the Necron Flyer so this will be less useful for him, but its still AV11 only. All those S6+ weapons can just unload on him once he is on the board. Even with Snapfire you have enough shots you are likely doing something to him, and he only has 2-4 turns to make an impact.

Thanks for this bit of advice. Also, the team games were not organized ahead of time. Either it was an odd number people lookin' for a game, or table space. The one time my opponent had a flyer, we did not either.

Based on what others said, I've decided I'll just run whatever I think would be fun. I've replaced 2 vet squads with a Inf. Platoon plus 2 HWT, and a psyker battle squad lead by a Primeris (replacing CCS). Also, replaced a Exterminator with a Basilisk (because my brother dared me.)

I've always thought a good combo for a teams event would ne Dark Eldar Venom Spam with Cronair list lead by the guy who can turn night fight on and off.

 Guardsmen Bob wrote:
Based on what others said, I've decided I'll just run whatever I think would be fun.

So three pages of advice and the conclusion you come to is "I'll just run whatever I want"? What's the point of making a thread asking for help with tactics if you're just going to ignore all the advice and take random stuff because it's "fun"?

"you can lead a horse to water...."

 Peregrine wrote:

 Guardsmen Bob wrote:
Based on what others said, I've decided I'll just run whatever I think would be fun.

So three pages of advice and the conclusion you come to is "I'll just run whatever I want"? What's the point of making a thread asking for help with tactics if you're just going to ignore all the advice and take random stuff because it's "fun"?

Didn't mean to sound like I was disregarding all the advice, I've read plenty of things that would up my game no matter what I was running. That is what I was looking for to begin with, perhaps I didn't word it well enough, but yeah. Thanks for your insights on vendettas, Peregrine. I also learned how to make other things (things I don't have yet) more useful/survivable. I'm not ungrateful.