Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Mordekiem wrote:
Stealing babies isn't exactly what I would call "good". They sacrifice human life to try and achieve their goals including literally human sacrifice! Eating the hearts of their enemies is kind of frowned upon by most people. A tree that drinks human blood can't be all good, either.

They claim their overarching goal is to save the world, but they sure are destroying, killing, murdering, sacrificing a lot to do it. And from the fluff I have read most of them are caught up in much more petty things than saving the world. There own politics in particular and gaining more power. And Morvahna is far from the only one.

I think the circle fluff is awesome, but they are far from your goody goody hippy druids forced to do a couple bad things.

You really need to reread the fluff, and what's already been stated in this thread.

They take babies because those babies experience the wilding. They take them in, shelter them, and show them how to reach their potential. If those same babies are left where they are, they become social pariahs or get burned alive. Yep, circle sure is evil.

Druids use blood for a few different things. It's used in the creation of wold structures, which assist them in their goals. They also use it as a means of feeding gallows groves and things like wormwood, both of which are manifestations of the wyrm. The tharn are the heart eaters, and I've already explained why earlier in this thread. Blood is an ends to a means. If they could just make stone guardians without it, or if the trees that assist them in spellcasting could thrive without it, they would never bother with it. Ends to a means. If they don't have blood, they don't have heavy support, and without that they might lose, then everyone dies.

I'm not saying there isn't politics and douchebaggery within the circle. However, it hasn't always been that way and that kind of thing is suggested as being why the druids have failed to keep civilization in check. It states that Kruegar has come to this conclusion, and that's why he told all of the other druids who won't follow him to shove it. He got tired of the games and instead is aggressively pursuing action. This is why Kromac follows him, this is why morvahna hates him, this is why he is the chosen of wormwood. Grayle also came to the conclusion, sorta. He grew up as a wolf of orboros, and when he got his late wilding and become inducted into the druids, he saw with his own eyes that all the stuff he'd been told was sacred, all the rites and proper procedures for things, had been discarded. The current druids have little respect for the old ways.

ALSO! I think I derped when going over the difference between orboros and the wyrm (also reread about how to spell it). I thought they were the same, but they are different. Need to look more into it, but there was a line I glanced last night about how the druids really do not want to draw the the attention of the wyrm, so they usually don't mingle too much with the lord of the feast and such, and instead draw power from the mindless orboros network. And stuff.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Yeah, thats what I meant. I also was saying that if one had to win I'd pick order over destruction, lesser of 2 evils and all.

Gotcha. Idk, personally both choices kind of suck

My take on faction alignments.

Warmachine:


Cygnar: Neutral-to-Good. Cygnar really isn't looking to slaughter much of anyone or anything for that matter, and is for the most part waging war as defensive measure. Certainly of the represented forces they have the most respect for human rights, and allow the most liberties for non-humans among the Iron Kingdoms. Their laws can be surprisingly progressive and the current king is even taking steps to reduce abuse of power by the nobility. That said they kind of dicked the trolbloods pretty hardcore, and their treatment of menite citizens not in the protectorate has been abhorrent in recent years. On the whole though it's not a awful place to live (attackers aside), given the setting.

Khador: Neutral: Khador isn't nearly as progressive as Cygnar, and has a far more authoritarian government. They're certainly guilty of waging aggressive wars of expansion, but as occupiers go they've been relatively light-handed. They're had no ethnic of religious purges of the sort you might see in Cygnar or the Protectorate to my recollection. The government also has an overly utilitarian bent that often flies directly in the face of the needs of the citizenry, but they don't actively try to mistreat the populace.

Protectorate of Menoth: Lawful Evil. On the whole as an entity the Protectorate is a nasty piece of work. They've had large scale religious and cultural purges, it barely even recognize non-humans as "People", it regularly burns it's own citizens to death for minor infractions. While there are a few genuinely good people represented in the faction (Kreoss, Vilmon, Harbinger), they're far outweighed by bloodthirsty psychopaths. These statements really aren't meant to reflect on the general population of the protectorate, or even your average grunt serving his god, they are after all just people. Even Menoth as a god seems to have limits on the amount of scumbag behavior he'll tolerate out of his servants (though this threshold does seem quite high).

Still it remains that protectorate has an entire branch of the millitary that is dedicated to locking people suspected of crimes in their houses, setting the houses on fire, then waiting outside for anyone who might escape so they can chase them down with flame throwers.

Cryx/Lord Toruk: Out right evil. I mean like dragons are literally all that is un-good given phsyical form. They are in all ways, actual world cancer that also give you cancer. The various members that make it up have goals that range from just plain killing every & anything, to trying to become a god.

Retribution of Scryah: Evil. They're trying to wage what is basically a campaign of genocide based on an confirmed hypothesis. Even if the hypothesis was correct the end can't justify the means in this case. I wouldn't take them representative of IoS as a whole, and even their war leaders probably fall on the neutral side of the scale overall. They're a desperate people doing awful things they see as necessary to save themselves, while it's hard to judge that too harshly you can only have so much sympathy for "Kill all humans" or at least "Kill almost all humans to the point where they can't really use magic anymore".

Hordes:

Trollbloods Probably the closest thing to "Good Guys" in Warmahordes. They are for the most part just fighting for their own survival and rights. They've perhaps employed some overly zealous or needlessly violent tactics (lookin' at you doomshaper), but their bad actions are the closest to justifiable in the fiction. The fate of the whelps, considering they are fully sapient beings is perhaps... disturbing but that's an artifact of troll biology I'm not sure we can judge as humans. That said they aren't striving for any particular grand ideal of person-rights in a general sense the way say cygnar is. They probably still fall closer to the nuetral side of the equation.

Skrone Evil. The empire is a conquest-driven destruction engine that deals death for little reason than "It's the thing to do". Torture and worse are a fundamental part of their socieity. Theirs is a wholly destructive and parasitic culture with no redeeming qualities. You could argue this makes them worse than the dragons I suppose, as there is no evidence there is a fundamental natural law governing the skrone that forces them to be this way, it's a cultural view that's been propagated and not challenged.

Legion of Everblight See Cryx. World Cancer.

Circle of Orobos Neutral-to-Evil; Their fundamental mission is a good one, saving the world. However their methods are atrocious, and like the Retribution their central hypothesis is a bit untested (I'll grant you it'd be hard to test and still have a world left to save). Several members of their leadership have shown to have no moral compass, even within their framework of "Destroy Civilization to save the world" goal. However even according to them they're a best delaying the inevitable, which makes their methods even harder to defend.

ALSO! I think I derped when going over the difference between orboros and the wyrm (also reread about how to spell it). I thought they were the same, but they are different. Need to look more into it, but there was a line I glanced last night about how the druids really do not want to draw the the attention of the wyrm, so they usually don't mingle too much with the lord of the feast and such, and instead draw power from the mindless orboros network. And stuff.

Sort of. Remember all the fiction is written from in-universe perspectives that are at best a bit skewed. We get no omniscient views beyond the doug seacat posts on the pp forums. Even then he avoids concrete descriptions.

If Oroboros/The Wurm are wholly separate, different manifestations of the same general "Thing", or aspects of a shared being (in the son-father-holy ghost variety) is a bit muddy. This gets even more potentially complex when you bring Dhunia into the picture.

I'd say Menoth is Lawful-Neutral, Skorne Lawful-Evil, and trolls Chaotic-Neutral with Orboros true Neutral.

Menoth is an oppressive society by our standards, but only because they have the doctrine of the One True Law given by their God (and there is quantitative proof that gods exist in Immoren) with the intent to protect the faithful. The religious elite wield a lot of power, but they are not cruel. Their refusal to recognize the legitimacy of other races, primarily Dhunian ones, stems more from their long history of pitched battles with the same.

Trolls are not so much 'good guys' as just underdogs that by and large want to be left alone. Troll society is very much 'might makes right' with powerful central figures that followers tend to gravitate towards. Some trolls are empathic/good guys like Gunnbjorn and Grissel, but many of the traditionalists like Doomshaper view the humans as a plague that ought be eradicated.

Skorne is a society built on a heavy dosage of cruelty and pain, but it's also quite structured and organized. In their way, they seem to have at least as much social organization as Menoth.

i think its easier to just list every faction as Evil

 Necroshea wrote:


You really need to reread the fluff, and what's already been stated in this thread.

They take babies because those babies experience the wilding. They take them in, shelter them, and show them how to reach their potential. If those same babies are left where they are, they become social pariahs or get burned alive. Yep, circle sure is evil.

Druids use blood for a few different things. It's used in the creation of wold structures, which assist them in their goals. They also use it as a means of feeding gallows groves and things like wormwood, both of which are manifestations of the wyrm. The tharn are the heart eaters, and I've already explained why earlier in this thread. Blood is an ends to a means. If they could just make stone guardians without it, or if the trees that assist them in spellcasting could thrive without it, they would never bother with it. Ends to a means. If they don't have blood, they don't have heavy support, and without that they might lose, then everyone dies.

I'm not saying there isn't politics and douchebaggery within the circle. However, it hasn't always been that way and that kind of thing is suggested as being why the druids have failed to keep civilization in check. It states that Kruegar has come to this conclusion, and that's why he told all of the other druids who won't follow him to shove it. He got tired of the games and instead is aggressively pursuing action. This is why Kromac follows him, this is why morvahna hates him, this is why he is the chosen of wormwood. Grayle also came to the conclusion, sorta. He grew up as a wolf of orboros, and when he got his late wilding and become inducted into the druids, he saw with his own eyes that all the stuff he'd been told was sacred, all the rites and proper procedures for things, had been discarded. The current druids have little respect for the old ways

i think you're giving them too much credit. they're not benefactors.

the circle will steal babies. they will poison wells. they will salt fields. they will destroy towns, and villages and cities when they get a chance. they happily foster plagues that kill thousands-the riplung that devestated the orgoth, and almost did the same to western immoren is just one example. they are neutral, in the grand scheme of things. they give, and they take. there was a great short story of a village that sought the help of the blackclads. they got it. for three years, they grew record crops. then the druids returned for their payback. needless to say, they got it. and basically destroyed the village and took everything in it, leaving the villagers utterly destitute and facing death.

druids use blood sacrifice for a variety of reasons. its not a matter of a a wee slice to the palm. woldwraths, for example require the blood of hundreds of victims to be brought to "life". youre talking about prisoners and captives. dont mince words. they will use you as a resource, just as they use rocks and trees. gallows groves literally suck the life, and nourishment, out of whatever is near. they drain you of life. utterly and completely. heck, wormwood is a carniverous soul eating tree forged, originally from the sacrifice of thousands to open it as a font to the devourers power.
youre wrong when you say blood is an end to a means, and something only reluctantly used. it is the end, and it is the means. it is life. life is nature. life is traded. you fail to understand what the devourer is. the devourer is the primal spirit of predation. whereas dhunia represents fertility, the devourer represents raw predation. it represents the great beasts, the great hunters, the hunt, the savage, primal joy in the kill, and in the domination of the strong over the weak. blood is an offering. blood is the reward. spilled blood means you won - you conquered. you are the predator. what lies broken, defeated and spilling its lifeblood at your feet is your prey. the devourer represents the wild killer, given free reign to lay waste to the world. it is primal joy of sheer and utter destruction, of natural chaos. that is the power the druids tap into. that is the power the tharn worship.
you say given the choice druids wouldnt use blood? i say you are wrong. blood is simply a part of the font of life. druids enjoy their power. those such as krueger and mohsar relish in the destruction they cause. they relish the spilling ofblood. krueger himself sees no difference between orboros and the devourer for example.

 Necroshea wrote:

I'm not saying there isn't politics and douchebaggery within the circle. However, it hasn't always been that way and that kind of thing is suggested as being why the druids have failed to keep civilization in check. It states that Kruegar has come to this conclusion, and that's why he told all of the other druids who won't follow him to shove it. He got tired of the games and instead is aggressively pursuing action. This is why Kromac follows him, this is why morvahna hates him, this is why he is the chosen of wormwood. Grayle also came to the conclusion, sorta. He grew up as a wolf of orboros, and when he got his late wilding and become inducted into the druids, he saw with his own eyes that all the stuff he'd been told was sacred, all the rites and proper procedures for things, had been discarded. The current druids have little respect for the old ways

again, you're a bit misguided here. grayle didnt see the old ways as being discarded - he saw all the sacred things that he believed in as a wolf for what they were - smokes and mirrors - things used to decieve and manipulate the underlings of the circle. deception and manipulation- two cornerstones of the circle's dealings with others. current druids are no different from druids from other ages. theyre a collection of powerful individuals, each with their own goals and objectives and each trying to push themselves to the pinnacle. it was the same when mohsar was a wilder. those with power, ambition and drive, and the skills to lead do just that. the others fall by the wayside. politics is as rife now as it was then. heck, you saw in krueger's trial how all the old ways, and all the old rituals were followed to the letter.

Kromac follows Krueger for two reasons. one - he had a falling out with Morvahna as she needlessly let too many tharn die. morvahna led one faction, so it made sense to join her opposiite (and coincidentally, the guy who trained him) faction. second reason was krueger promised unbridalled bloodshed. that is what kromac wants above all else - to slay in the name of his god. as for krueger - he wanted swift action, with himself at the helm. thats why he sought blightergast and helped push the alliance of dragons into motion. he figures by scouring the world clean in one great apocalypse, you can start afresh from a clean slate. others have differing opinions on how to go about it.

the only difference now is that they know the apocalypse is nigh - hence wurmwoods proclamation of krueger as the oracle of the apocalyse, and kromac as its champion (he has to gi and get rathrok for the job title though!)

and by the way, the reason the circle have failed to keep civilisation in check is civilisation is simply too strong, and grew too fast. essentially, humans got organised, and got bigger. the warlord era of a thousand rcities gave way to the pre-orgoth nations - strong, central, unified entitities, and too big for the circle to crack. things have remained similar since then.

Deadnight wrote:
Lots of words

Is any of this pulled from mk1 books?

 Necroshea wrote:

Deadnight wrote:
Lots of words

Is any of this pulled from mk1 books?

Sounds pretty close to the reading I got from them.

 Necroshea wrote:

Is any of this pulled from mk1 books?

mk1 books, mk2 books, PP short stories, NQ, the old D20 RPG material etc.

Deadnight wrote:

 Necroshea wrote:

Is any of this pulled from mk1 books?

mk1 books, mk2 books, PP short stories, NQ, the old D20 RPG material etc.

Ah. I really need to get around to reading mk1 fluff at some point. Someone once told me there wasn't anything different content wise in mk1, which now sounds like a falsehood.

Reading over grayle again, it's funny how for some reason I completely overlooked that he probably worships the wyrm, and there's not much of a difference between the wolves and the tharn belief wise.

I've only read the Mk 2 stuff and I got most of that as well.