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What if all the other alien races were removed, and also, for some strange reason, daemons were dead forever the first time they were killed. So if it was just all of the imperiums forces (marines, sob, ig, etc.), vs all of chaos (daemons, csm, traitor guard, etc.), which now is mortal, who would win? By the way, I made chaos mortal because we all know its impossible to defeat daemons that just keep coming back.

Imperium, easily. Chaos was crushed militarily in the Scourging after the fall of Horus. The survivors were forced to take refuge in a few pockets of unstable space, most notably the Eye of Terror, where the Imperium's forces were unable to follow. In M41 the Imperium has a much larger resource base than Chaos, hampered by having to defend all of it from everyone else. If the Imperium has the luxury of concentrating on the Chaos problem then little short of another surprise mass insurrection could stop them.

Imperium, hands down. They outnumber and can outproduce chaos currently. Chaos only has the advantage as it can pick and choose its fights and can concentrate it's forces to small areas. The Imperium has to defend against everything. Chaos does have daemons and cults going for it, but compared to the scale of the imperium it's not much.

Imperium any day of the week, They are hands down the most harden faction in 40k due to having kill everyone else just to stay alive.

Both would lose, the Imperium would beat Chaos and then descend into civil war because the only thing that keeps the peace is common enemies.

Given that the constraints of this argument makes Chaos not-Chaos, definitely the Imperium.

Imperium. Hundreds of billions of Guardsmen. Nuff said.

 Psienesis wrote:
Given that the constraints of this argument makes Chaos not-Chaos, definitely the Imperium.

This. The scenario presented is the equivalent of saying "What if the Necrons didn't rebuild themselves" or "What if the Tyranids didn't recycle their dead". It's a huge handicap for the forces of Chaos and completely changes the way they operate. If Chaos was the way you described it, it wouldn't be that big of a threat in the first place.

Now let me state this: would it even be possible to defeat chaos if they could come back, like normal? I mean, can the imperium eventually defeat chaos? Because it just seems to me like it would just be an endless war since daemons don't truly die. The only thing the imperium could do is capture them all with those devices the grey knights use.

 Color Sgt. Kell wrote:
Now let me state this: would it even be possible to defeat chaos if they could come back, like normal? I mean, can the imperium eventually defeat chaos? Because it just seems to me like it would just be an endless war since daemons don't truly die. The only thing the imperium could do is capture them all with those devices the grey knights use.

Depends on who you ask. Some believe that the only way to destroy Chaos is for humanity to be destroyed as well. Others say that killing the Emperor will have him be reborn in the Warp so that he can destroy Chaos. Others say that Chaos is destined to consume the Galaxy and (if they are to be believed) it's going to be happening very soon. The fact is, Chaos is born from the emotions, feelings, and thoughts of living things in the material realm; mostly humans. As long as humanity exists, so to will there exist reflections of humanity in the Warp. Most of these reflections manifest as Daemons.

Long story short, no, the Imperium probably doesn't stand a chance defeating Chaos within the confines of the established background material. To me, that has always been the underlying theme of the setting. One way or another, humanity is doomed.



*Edit: Changed some grammar around.

Even if the demons didn't Ank, more would be born from the aether by the emotions of IG.. More to the point would be how could chaos (demons) survive without humans???

GW has said that if the Imperium ever focused its entire military might against any one army, it would completely defeat them. (This includes, Orks and Tyranids and Necrons)

However the Imperium is under siege by 4 major powers trying to destroy them and count less others dedicated to fething them up at least preventing the Imperium from focusing its military might and the best it can do is hold the line.

 Galdos wrote:
GW has said that if the Imperium ever focused its entire military might against any one army, it would completely defeat them. (This includes, Orks and Tyranids and Necrons)

The only time I have ever heard anything like that, it was applied to the Ork population uniting under one, massive Waaagh!, not the Imperium. I would really like to see where you got that from, because I haven't seen an official resource that says anything about the Imperium in this light. Regardless, it doesn't apply to Chaos because of the inherent nature of Chaos. To me, utterly obliterating Chaos would require something more than what any amount of military might could muster. It's like trying to destroy your own thoughts and memories with a gun. They're an abstract concept that is only allowed to exist because you think, remember, and allow them to exist. Thus, as long as you exist as a thinking, feeling human being, so to will your thoughts and memories. The same thing can be applied to humans and the Chaos Daemons that they cause to manifest in the Warp.

Honestly, I only see three ways to completely destroy Chaos:

A) The Emperor dies and is reborn in the warp, where he will proceed to kick Chaotic ass. (Though, we aren't really sure this would really even happen.)
B) Humanity stops thinking/purges themselves of all thought and emotion. (If the entire human population is made up of mindless, emotionless vegetables, then we're not human anymore. Plus this would be practically impossible to do.)
C) Humanity is exterminated. (Although, it's possible inklings of Chaos may still survive off of the other mortal races.)

Otherwise, Chaos can never be completely obliterated. We can hold them at bay and minimize the impact they have on the material realm, but as long as we're here, they'll be there too. The Warp is a mirror that reflects the material realm. Daemons are a reflection of material life. Killing Chaos is like trying to kill your reflection. That's just my thought on it.

It says it in most of the background material Darth.

The Imperium of Man is the single most powerful force in the Galaxy, it just has to run around throwing water on various fires rather than concentrating on one at a time.

In the old book "Realms of Chaos" it mentions in the section on the Emperor that if he dies he will reincarnate, and be far far more powerful than he was due to the billions upon billions of true believers.

 Darth Bob wrote:

 Galdos wrote:
GW has said that if the Imperium ever focused its entire military might against any one army, it would completely defeat them. (This includes, Orks and Tyranids and Necrons)

The only time I have ever heard anything like that, it was applied to the Ork population uniting under one, massive Waaagh!, not the Imperium. I would really like to see where you got that from, because I haven't seen an official resource that says anything about the Imperium in this light. Regardless, it doesn't apply to Chaos because of the inherent nature of Chaos. To me, utterly obliterating Chaos would require something more than what any amount of military might could muster. It's like trying to destroy your own thoughts and memories with a gun. They're an abstract concept that is only allowed to exist because you think, remember, and allow them to exist. Thus, as long as you exist as a thinking, feeling human being, so to will your thoughts and memories. The same thing can be applied to humans and the Chaos Daemons that they cause to manifest in the Warp.

Honestly, I only see three ways to completely destroy Chaos:

A) The Emperor dies and is reborn in the warp, where he will proceed to kick Chaotic ass. (Though, we aren't really sure this would really even happen.)
B) Humanity stops thinking/purges themselves of all thought and emotion. (If the entire human population is made up of mindless, emotionless vegetables, then we're not human anymore. Plus this would be practically impossible to do.)
C) Humanity is exterminated. (Although, it's possible inklings of Chaos may still survive off of the other mortal races.)

Otherwise, Chaos can never be completely obliterated. We can hold them at bay and minimize the impact they have on the material realm, but as long as we're here, they'll be there too. The Warp is a mirror that reflects the material realm. Daemons are a reflection of material life. Killing Chaos is like trying to kill your reflection. That's just my thought on it.

D) A C'tan Shard reconstructs the Pylons near the Cadian Gate and shuts the Warp off completely.

 Endriu Death Coy wrote:
It says it in most of the background material Darth.

The Imperium of Man is the single most powerful force in the Galaxy, it just has to run around throwing water on various fires rather than concentrating on one at a time.

In the old book "Realms of Chaos" it mentions in the section on the Emperor that if he dies he will reincarnate, and be far far more powerful than he was due to the billions upon billions of true believers.

pretty much this yeah,

One thing, since i like to play devils advocate, IoM is not the single most powerful force in the Galaxy, that would fall to the Orks. If all orks in the galaxy united under a single warboss, they would crush every other race.

 Color Sgt. Kell wrote:
Now let me state this: would it even be possible to defeat chaos if they could come back, like normal? I mean, can the imperium eventually defeat chaos? Because it just seems to me like it would just be an endless war since daemons don't truly die. The only thing the imperium could do is capture them all with those devices the grey knights use.

Not in the traditional sense, no. Chaos is a mirror that shows only the worst aspects of sentient life. It's a whole yin/yang thing, can't have one without the other.

 Darth Bob wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Given that the constraints of this argument makes Chaos not-Chaos, definitely the Imperium.

This. The scenario presented is the equivalent of saying "What if the Necrons didn't rebuild themselves" or "What if the Tyranids didn't recycle their dead". It's a huge handicap for the forces of Chaos and completely changes the way they operate. If Chaos was the way you described it, it wouldn't be that big of a threat in the first place.

Also this could be extended to Chaos' mutations and possessed equipment:

-At what point is a Daemon dead? Is it when it's physical manifestation is terminated? When it becomes part of a machine?
-Does that mean daemonic possession of machines cannot work?
-At what point do mutations make you a daemon? Normally a follower of Chaos becomes a daemon when he dies, would that change?
-If a follower of Chaos cannot become daemonkind, then what are they even fighting for?
-Do the Chaos Gods count?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Color Sgt. Kell wrote:
Now let me state this: would it even be possible to defeat chaos if they could come back, like normal? I mean, can the imperium eventually defeat chaos? Because it just seems to me like it would just be an endless war since daemons don't truly die. The only thing the imperium could do is capture them all with those devices the grey knights use.

Yes. The fabric of reality could be sealed. Failing that, just kill all mortal followers. But that could be rather difficult, considering that to ensure this they would have to destroy anything that ever touched the warp (including all ships, psykers and the Emperor).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Psienesis wrote:

 Color Sgt. Kell wrote:
Now let me state this: would it even be possible to defeat chaos if they could come back, like normal? I mean, can the imperium eventually defeat chaos? Because it just seems to me like it would just be an endless war since daemons don't truly die. The only thing the imperium could do is capture them all with those devices the grey knights use.

Not in the traditional sense, no. Chaos is a mirror that shows only the worst aspects of sentient life. It's a whole yin/yang thing, can't have one without the other.

I agree here.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mavlun wrote:

 Darth Bob wrote:

 Galdos wrote:
GW has said that if the Imperium ever focused its entire military might against any one army, it would completely defeat them. (This includes, Orks and Tyranids and Necrons)

The only time I have ever heard anything like that, it was applied to the Ork population uniting under one, massive Waaagh!, not the Imperium. I would really like to see where you got that from, because I haven't seen an official resource that says anything about the Imperium in this light. Regardless, it doesn't apply to Chaos because of the inherent nature of Chaos. To me, utterly obliterating Chaos would require something more than what any amount of military might could muster. It's like trying to destroy your own thoughts and memories with a gun. They're an abstract concept that is only allowed to exist because you think, remember, and allow them to exist. Thus, as long as you exist as a thinking, feeling human being, so to will your thoughts and memories. The same thing can be applied to humans and the Chaos Daemons that they cause to manifest in the Warp.

Honestly, I only see three ways to completely destroy Chaos:

A) The Emperor dies and is reborn in the warp, where he will proceed to kick Chaotic ass. (Though, we aren't really sure this would really even happen.)
B) Humanity stops thinking/purges themselves of all thought and emotion. (If the entire human population is made up of mindless, emotionless vegetables, then we're not human anymore. Plus this would be practically impossible to do.)
C) Humanity is exterminated. (Although, it's possible inklings of Chaos may still survive off of the other mortal races.)

Otherwise, Chaos can never be completely obliterated. We can hold them at bay and minimize the impact they have on the material realm, but as long as we're here, they'll be there too. The Warp is a mirror that reflects the material realm. Daemons are a reflection of material life. Killing Chaos is like trying to kill your reflection. That's just my thought on it.

D) A C'tan Shard reconstructs the Pylons near the Cadian Gate and shuts the Warp off completely.

*The Eye of Terror only.

 Darth Bob wrote:

 Galdos wrote:
GW has said that if the Imperium ever focused its entire military might against any one army, it would completely defeat them. (This includes, Orks and Tyranids and Necrons)

The only time I have ever heard anything like that, it was applied to the Ork population uniting under one, massive Waaagh!, not the Imperium. I would really like to see where you got that from, because I haven't seen an official resource that says anything about the Imperium in this light. Regardless, it doesn't apply to Chaos because of the inherent nature of Chaos. To me, utterly obliterating Chaos would require something more than what any amount of military might could muster. It's like trying to destroy your own thoughts and memories with a gun. They're an abstract concept that is only allowed to exist because you think, remember, and allow them to exist. Thus, as long as you exist as a thinking, feeling human being, so to will your thoughts and memories. The same thing can be applied to humans and the Chaos Daemons that they cause to manifest in the Warp.

Honestly, I only see three ways to completely destroy Chaos:

A) The Emperor dies and is reborn in the warp, where he will proceed to kick Chaotic ass. (Though, we aren't really sure this would really even happen.)
B) Humanity stops thinking/purges themselves of all thought and emotion. (If the entire human population is made up of mindless, emotionless vegetables, then we're not human anymore. Plus this would be practically impossible to do.)
C) Humanity is exterminated. (Although, it's possible inklings of Chaos may still survive off of the other mortal races.)

Otherwise, Chaos can never be completely obliterated. We can hold them at bay and minimize the impact they have on the material realm, but as long as we're here, they'll be there too. The Warp is a mirror that reflects the material realm. Daemons are a reflection of material life. Killing Chaos is like trying to kill your reflection. That's just my thought on it.

They have ALSO said that about the Orks.


That is why there was a Dakka Dakka topic a while back about who would win if both sides unified its entire might against each other with no one else bothering them.

Also B and C wont work because Chaos does not need humanity to exist, they just find Humanity to be the best force to feed off of.

Galdos wrote:GW has said that if the Imperium ever focused its entire military might against any one army, it would completely defeat them. (This includes, Orks and Tyranids and Necrons)

It has? Where did it say that?

 LoneLictor wrote:

Galdos wrote:GW has said that if the Imperium ever focused its entire military might against any one army, it would completely defeat them. (This includes, Orks and Tyranids and Necrons)

It has? Where did it say that?

The idea sounds familiar, but I cannot recall where I read it...

But, then, this is also said for the other factions:

Nids: Far more nids outside the galaxy, if they unite the universe will be eaten.
Orks: If they unite they'll kill everything else with sheer numbers.
IOM: If united, they'll wipe out any single race.

Etc.

Almost every faction has a variation on this.

the unfortunate thing is at least 1/4 of the chaos power siphons from the Eldar. Slaanesh was created by the Eldar and draws off their superhuman emotions. To destroy Chaos would mean to destroy the Chaos gods. Khain the bloodyhanded, the most powerful eldar god couldnt destroy slaanesh. In my opinion is that only Gork and Mork the Ork gods stand a chance against the Chaos gods. either that or CREEEEED! beating them all at chess. http://1d4chan.org/wiki/The_Game_(Tzeentch)

Chaos cultists are widespread throughout the Imperium and even if demons are mortal, that wont stop new demons from coming into existence. The Imperium will certainly destroy most individual chaos threat, but overall I don't think it would be able to wipe it out for good.

GorillaWarfare wrote:
Chaos cultists are widespread throughout the Imperium and even if demons are mortal, that wont stop new demons from coming into existence. The Imperium will certainly destroy most individual chaos threat, but overall I don't think it would be able to wipe it out for good.

That is a good point. I hadn't even thought about that.

In the 40k universe, all emotions pool together in the warp. Everytime someone or something has a new experience, it can form a lesser daemon. They then merge into more powerful daemons etc. Like how the four gods were formed. Eventually they gain enough power to affect reality. Even with mortal daemons, simply the act of fighting the daemons would create new daemons. The same cannot be said for mankind...

ZSO, SAHAAL wrote:
Both would lose, the Imperium would beat Chaos and then descend into civil war because the only thing that keeps the peace is common enemies.

Without the destabilizing influence of chaos, this may not necessarily be the case.

 Selym wrote:

 LoneLictor wrote:

Galdos wrote:GW has said that if the Imperium ever focused its entire military might against any one army, it would completely defeat them. (This includes, Orks and Tyranids and Necrons)

It has? Where did it say that?

The idea sounds familiar, but I cannot recall where I read it...

But, then, this is also said for the other factions:

Nids: Far more nids outside the galaxy, if they unite the universe will be eaten.
Orks: If they unite they'll kill everything else with sheer numbers.
IOM: If united, they'll wipe out any single race.

Etc.

Almost every faction has a variation on this.

Honostly I have no memory where I heard it from. Is it in the Rulebooks or White Dwarf? Could have been a GW article on the site. I know Ive heard it a few times though both here and from a GW person.

Ive only heard that saying said about the Orks and the Imperium

Just though I might throw out that technical faults have been found in the Golden Throne the Techpriests or w/e are incapable of repairing, so once that goes out the Emperor's soul gets permatrapped in the warp and once he "dies" Chaos consumes the galaxy so, yea

That or he becomes a fifth chaos god opposing the other four, or he gets reborn, or etc.