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Not true. It pivots on the spot, and then makes its move. Cite where it says what you claim.

 BarBoBot wrote:
Not true. It pivots on the spot, and then makes its move. Cite where it says what you claim.

Yep... this has been debated to death multiple times 40knoob... It is legal to do it although there are a lot of people who think it goes against RAI and is not 'fair'. However GW has had ample opportunity to FAQ it (or even write it into new editions) but haven't... The practice seems 'wrong' to me but there isn't anything saying you can't do it and it complies with the movement rules...

 grendel083 wrote:

 Drunkspleen wrote:
You still appear to be adding in an extra 12 inches that aren't warranted.

12" deploy
3" rotate
6" move
6" disembark
12" lucky assault roll
Total = 39"

Ah thanks for clearing up, evidently I misread "from your board edge" on the first pass.

Personal favorite of mine: Scarabs.
The spider creates a new one, placed within coherency 2" into the middle. That plus the base means you only need about 9" charge. Still have to get a little lucky, but it's better then nothing.
And thank goodness they FAQ'd it so you can't conga spawn them across the map. That was just ridiculous.

40k-noob wrote:
...must stay it that 12" bubble that was measure before moved or pivoted.

Referenced rule suffers critical existence failure.

40k-noob wrote:

Beast wrote:
They are (I think) referring to the practice of deploying a long vehicle sideways and then using 'free' pivoting before movement to gain a few inches before they measure for movement.

That what I do not understand, how does pivoting give you 3 free inches.

The rules say if vehicle only pivots, then it doesn count as moving. It doesn't say that you free inches.

if a vehicle starts the turn sideways, you measure from any point on that hull, lets say 12", no part of that vehicle can extended outside of that twelve 12"

If all it does is pivot, then it still counts and stationary, if it pivots then moves, it can pivot any amount it wants there after but must stay it that 12" bubble that was measure before moved or pivoted.

It's easy.

1. Deploy where the clear disc of the stand is right up against the line and the raider is turned sideways.
2. Pivot such that the raider is now facing forward (note that the stand has NOT moved).
3. Move forward 12". At this point, although the stand has only moved 12", the front is actually 3" further in front. The effect of which is that you have an extra 3" forward position which the wyches can launch off of - open top transport, they exit from any point of the hull. That front piece is hull.

OR you could even:
1. Deploy where the clear disc of the stand is right up against the line and the raider is turned sideways.
2. Simply move the raider, measuring 12" from the edge of that disc in any direction.
3. Pivot the raider such that the very front pointy piece is pointing straight at whatever you are trying to assault. You now have 3" of "free" movement.

40k-noob wrote:
[if a vehicle starts the turn sideways, you measure from any point on that hull, lets say 12", no part of that vehicle can extended outside of that twelve 12"

There's no rules basis for this statement.

rigeld2 wrote:

40k-noob wrote:
[if a vehicle starts the turn sideways, you measure from any point on that hull, lets say 12", no part of that vehicle can extended outside of that twelve 12"

There's no rules basis for this statement.

No he could be talking about some necron vehicle, do they have zero point ships in they codex. I mean they did finish science.

I had a first turn assault yesterday actually, unit of Flesh Hounds scouts up, I seize, my Assault Marines jump forward and get a first turn charge.

If a Land Raider was a square, deploying sideways then pivoting 1st turn would not gain any inches. But since it's longer from front-to-back than aross the sides, you can gain half of that distance in forward distance without even counting as moving. I haven't measured my Raider lately, but I don't think it would be 3 inches, as the pivot must be from the center point. But Khorne units with an Icon of Wrath might be able to pull off a 1st turn assault, especially if an Allied Fateweaver gets them a lucky reroll on one of those dice.

I've also gotten the 1st turn charge with Bikers and a Maulerfiend and Soul Grinder after some Flesh Hounds and Bloodcrushers Scouted. Those Khorne Daemons can be impatient sometimes, I've done the same thing too!

When they were saying 3", they were referring to a Dark Eldar Raider, which is much narrower than it is long.

That said, I suspect 3" may be a slight exaggeration.

Personally I would call it closer to 1.5" for a pivoting Raider. But that's because I don't treat the prow as part of the hull. But that's a whole separate debate.

There's a rather hilarious way to get in to combat from the otherside of the board when playing as Orks by abusing the 2" inch rule. Line up your Death Koptas till one end is within assault distance of your enemy and the Warboss at the other. Get into combat with your front unit and you can catapult the Warboss across the board straight into the middle of combat. The look on your opponents face...

 CommisarGlitch wrote:
There's a rather hilarious way to get in to combat from the otherside of the board when playing as Orks by abusing the 2" inch rule. Line up your Death Koptas till one end is within assault distance of your enemy and the Warboss at the other. Get into combat with your front unit and you can catapult the Warboss across the board straight into the middle of combat. The look on your opponents face...

Well, only if the Warboss is within range to get engaged in combat.

If he is more than 5 inches from a model, that is in his unit and in base contact with the enemy, then he can not get into combat.

If he is on "the otherside of the board" he can not make any attacks as he will be too far from anyone in base contact with the enemy.

rigeld2 wrote:

40k-noob wrote:
[if a vehicle starts the turn sideways, you measure from any point on that hull, lets say 12", no part of that vehicle can extended outside of that twelve 12"

There's no rules basis for this statement.

Wheres your rules basis for moving a vehicle more than 12"?

None is needed. Movement is clearly defined. You pivot on the spot THEN move. Your not moving over 12". Your allowed to pivot as many times as you want during movement. It doesn't say to start subtracting inches from your move if you pivot.

40k-noob wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

40k-noob wrote:
[if a vehicle starts the turn sideways, you measure from any point on that hull, lets say 12", no part of that vehicle can extended outside of that twelve 12"

There's no rules basis for this statement.

Wheres your rules basis for moving a vehicle more than 12"?

Where is your understanding of the difference between displacement and movement?
The rules for movement are clear, and when pivoting the pivot CANNOT reduce your movement. Thus this move is strictly legal

Parts of the tank displace more than 12", some less. THis is different to saying the tank has moved.

Oh, and this has been known as a consequence of the simplified tank rules since 3rd edition, and known by the studio. Do not attempt an RAI argument

 BarBoBot wrote:
None is needed. Movement is clearly defined. You pivot on the spot THEN move. Your not moving over 12". Your allowed to pivot as many times as you want during movement. It doesn't say to start subtracting inches from your move if you pivot.

That is right it is clearly defined. You have MAXIMUM move distance. You are not allowed to go beyond your MAX..
No one is saying you subtract from your move because of pivots. I am saying that you measure from your starting position and that is your bubble of movement.
You can pivot all you want inside that bubble but no part of that model can extend beyond that bubble of Max movement.

The rules clearly state that you cannot have any part of the model over the X" limit.

Page 10 in the bottom left corner has an illustration with an infantry model which states that placing a model beyond your measurement is incorrect. It then goes on to say that while this error is relatively minor with inf models it can be major with vehicles.

Page 71 then states since vehicles dont have bases, you measure to and from the Hull.

So then the vehicles hull cannot extend beyond the movement bubble just like an Inf models base cannot extend beyond.

Edit: spelling + sketch added (the pink is what i mean by not allowed.)

Sorry but none of that matters since the crux of your argument is false. There is no place where it tells you that a vehicle that pivots can not make a full move after the pivot. (Your example about measuring from the front to the back of a base does not apply as that's not at all what's happening, and its not a vehicle)

Lets stick with VEHICLE rules.

 BarBoBot wrote:
Sorry but none of that matters since the crux of your argument is false. There is no place where it tells you that a vehicle that pivots can not make a full move after the pivot. (Your example about measuring from the front to the back of a base does not apply as that's not at all what's happening, and its not a vehicle)

Lets stick with VEHICLE rules.

Excuse me? I think you have read something that I did not type.

At no point am I saying that vehicle that pivots cannot makes its full movement. It indeed can. As my illustration shows.

At the start of the movement phase a vehicle is in its starting position and has a 12" max bubble around it measured from any point of its hull. That vehicle can move anywhere within that bubble of movement.

That vehicle cannot have any part of its hull further out than 12" as that would be going beyond it maximum allowable movement.

40k-noob wrote:
At the start of the movement phase a vehicle is in its starting position and has a 12" max bubble around it measured from any point of its hull. That vehicle can move anywhere within that bubble of movement.

That's not anywhere in the Movement rules.
I don't want to use the phrase "made-up", but it's definitely not a rule.

 grendel083 wrote:

40k-noob wrote:
At the start of the movement phase a vehicle is in its starting position and has a 12" max bubble around it measured from any point of its hull. That vehicle can move anywhere within that bubble of movement.

That's not anywhere in the Movement rules.
I don't want to use the phrase "made-up", but it's definitely not a rule.

What is the maximum distance any vehicle can move? (not including Walkers/Flyers).

How do you measure distances with Vehicles?

Put those two answers together and you get a bubble of movement for a vehicle.

Reread vehicle movement.

"Vehicles can turn any mumber of times as they move, just like any other model. Vehicles turn by pivoting on the spot about their center point, rather than wheeling round. Turning does not reduce the vehicles movement. Pivoting on the spot alone does not count as movement."

"Pivoting on the spot does not count as movement".... Even if what you said was backed by the rules,(movement bubble before moving) that last line says it doesn't count.

On the other side, from your assertion, a raider that pivots but does not move will have in fact moved several inches since you measured before the pivot and its final position changed.

 BarBoBot wrote:
Reread vehicle movement.

"Vehicles can turn any mumber of times as they move, just like any other model. Vehicles turn by pivoting on the spot about their center point, rather than wheeling round. Turning does not reduce the vehicles movement. Pivoting on the spot alone does not count as movement."

"Pivoting on the spot does alone not count as movement".... Even if what you said was backed by the rules,(movement bubble before moving) that last line says it doesn't count.

On the other side, from your assertion, a raider that pivots but does not move will have in fact moved several inches since you measured before the pivot and its final position changed.

How do you misquote the rule you just posted yourself? I fixed it for you. in RED

IF, and that is IF all the vehicle does is pivot and only pivot, it does not count as movement.

IF you pivot then move, that does indeed count as moving. But that wouldn't matter anyway , pivoting and not moving is still within the maximum allowable distance.

Edit: spelling

"Turning does not decrease the vehicles movement" seems pretty clear to me, but if you still disagree, there is 3 editions worth of discussion on this for you to read. If it hasn't been changed in 3 editions, there's a good chance it's working as intended.

The pivot itself is not a move. The actual moving forward is what counts as movement. That the vehicle now gains roughly half its length in additional reach is a side-effect of the physics of the model and the rules provided for pivoting it.

How do you measure distances with Vehicles?

From "the hull". This is defined as any part of the model that is not a weapon or decoration.

 BarBoBot wrote:


"Turning does not decrease the vehicles movement" seems pretty clear to me, but if you still disagree, there is 3 editions worth of discussion on this for you to read. If it hasn't been changed in 3 editions, there's a good chance it's working as intended.

Well, I do not have the 3 previous edition rule books, so I cannot refer to them.

Anyway. This getting off topic from the OP's question. I will just end it here.

Sorry for the thread stealing

Eldercaveman wrote:
I had a first turn assault yesterday actually, unit of Flesh Hounds scouts up, I seize, my Assault Marines jump forward and get a first turn charge.

Darn Assault marines, soon followed by a double 6 wiping out the near full health flesh hounds...

MarkyMark wrote:

Eldercaveman wrote:
I had a first turn assault yesterday actually, unit of Flesh Hounds scouts up, I seize, my Assault Marines jump forward and get a first turn charge.

Darn Assault marines, soon followed by a double 6 wiping out the near full health flesh hounds...

Haha and a swift wiping out of my Death Company

If theres a rule banning first turn assaults, I'm quitting the game. That would be the last straw in the heaping pile of straws that is the 6th edition rules