Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

im generally new to menoth, im not new to warmachine or hords ( owning khador and legion ) and this is the list im generally going for.

i do not own the wrath, merk, or colossal books, so if you mention something from there your going to have to give me the jist of what it, does so i can at least have an idea what it does, other then the menoth colossal i know the general bits about that


caster :
p high exemplar kreoss 5 : wj points

warjacks :
castigator : 8
guardian : 9

soldiers :
choir of menoth : 3
exemplar cinerators : 8
temple flameguard + ua : 8

solos :
hierophant : 2
reclaimer : 2
vassal mechanik : 1

total 35 points

the way i will deploy this will be the cinerators , castrator, and guardian go to the head of the line near each other,
choir , reclaimer will be in the middle with kreoss to support everyone, and obously hierophant with the caster
flameguard will be the 2nd rank right behind the cinerators and the ua behind the flameguard unit
the mechanik will be with the jack that i want to be the main one to do damage, either one will do, with the buffs on that one
the castigator will be the infantry or the light killer, or the big killer depending what im fighting
the guardian will be the heavy jack or spell caster jack so that i can take things out from range or hit the big jack they have hard
flame temple will be jack of all trades and the cinerators will tank for them, and if they survive hit the opponent hard as well as my jacks can and set them on fire

thats how i would set this list, what should i do difrent opinions please

It's an interesting list, certainly, though I'm not sure it really gels with pKreoss all that well.

First things first, I'm not a huge fan of the Castigator - it looks cool, but it can't beat face as well as a Templar, doesn't have the threat range or gun of a Reckoner, can't clear infantry as well as a Vanquisher, and it's one claim to fame is that it can make 2 handed throws, but we're a faction that can generally just beat anything to death, so throws are generally more corner case, and can usually be done one handed when needed. I'm not saying it's useless (far from it), but while it can perform a few different rolls, at any roll you put it in it performs slightly under par compared to other options.

Next, the Mechanik. I have him, he's not a bad point spent, but I'll always spend a point on Wracks before a Mechanic, unless you have thematic reasons or don't like the look of them (Some people don't, and I can understand that). If you don't mind the look of Wracks, then always put wracks in before a Mechanik - you'll use them every turn, while you'll only get use out of your mechanik maybe once a game, or every second game (and even then, you're relying on him passing his skill check, something I have terrible luck with ).

You also probably want a Vassal of Menoth (from your tactics discussion, I think you might have gotten him confused with the Vassal Mechanik) in your list, which is a 2pt solo that really helps your jacks. I would probably take him instead of the Heirophant or Reclaimer.

Choir. It's great, but I generally find you only need a min choir, unless you have 4+ jacks. Save that extra point, and put it towards something more handy.

Ok, lets look at the list in total.

pKreoss can do well with a number of things, but I generally find he does best as a ranged assassin, using his feat to allow easy shots at the enemy caster. Even having a single shooting jack can make this a real possibility in any game, even if you prefer to focus on melee jacks. A Reckoner, Vanquisher or Redeemer all make him a potent ranged threat with his feat. I wouldn't generally take a Guardian with him, it's a good jack with some casters (Severius and Reznik love him), but pKreoss isn't really much of a spell slinger, and he'd often prefer just to have shooty jacks instead of arcing spells. I mean, with Wracks and a Heirophant, he can sling a few spells, but just having shooty jacks is usually more efficient for him.

TFG is great for pKreoss, and does very well with Defenders Ward. Cinerators are OK, if you got them in the boxed set then definitely keep them in the list, but if you were going to buy them separately, I'd suggest getting Bastions instead, as they're a little more flexible as troops.

So, there's a lot of things to think about there. Generally, I'll say your units are OK, but you probably want to rethink your battlegroup and solos a little.

 Maddermax wrote:
It's an interesting list, certainly, though I'm not sure it really gels with pKreoss all that well.

First things first, I'm not a huge fan of the Castigator - it looks cool, but it can't beat face as well as a Templar, doesn't have the threat range or gun of a Reckoner, can't clear infantry as well as a Vanquisher, and it's one claim to fame is that it can make 2 handed throws, but we're a faction that can generally just beat anything to death, so throws are generally more corner case, and can usually be done one handed when needed. I'm not saying it's useless (far from it), but while it can perform a few different rolls, at any roll you put it in it performs slightly under par compared to other options.

Next, the Mechanik. I have him, he's not a bad point spent, but I'll always spend a point on Wracks before a Mechanic, unless you have thematic reasons or don't like the look of them (Some people don't, and I can understand that). If you don't mind the look of Wracks, then always put wracks in before a Mechanik - you'll use them every turn, while you'll only get use out of your mechanik maybe once a game, or every second game (and even then, you're relying on him passing his skill check, something I have terrible luck with ).

You also probably want a Vassal of Menoth (from your tactics discussion, I think you might have gotten him confused with the Vassal Mechanik) in your list, which is a 2pt solo that really helps your jacks. I would probably take him instead of the Heirophant or Reclaimer.

Choir. It's great, but I generally find you only need a min choir, unless you have 4+ jacks. Save that extra point, and put it towards something more handy.

Ok, lets look at the list in total.

pKreoss can do well with a number of things, but I generally find he does best as a ranged assassin, using his feat to allow easy shots at the enemy caster. Even having a single shooting jack can make this a real possibility in any game, even if you prefer to focus on melee jacks. A Reckoner, Vanquisher or Redeemer all make him a potent ranged threat with his feat. I wouldn't generally take a Guardian with him, it's a good jack with some casters (Severius and Reznik love him), but pKreoss isn't really much of a spell slinger, and he'd often prefer just to have shooty jacks instead of arcing spells. I mean, with Wracks and a Heirophant, he can sling a few spells, but just having shooty jacks is usually more efficient for him.

TFG is great for pKreoss, and does very well with Defenders Ward. Cinerators are OK, if you got them in the boxed set then definitely keep them in the list, but if you were going to buy them separately, I'd suggest getting Bastions instead, as they're a little more flexible as troops.

So, there's a lot of things to think about there. Generally, I'll say your units are OK, but you probably want to rethink your battlegroup and solos a little.

thank you sooooooooooo much for your help, ill re-tune my list and see if that works better with him, also question can spells that has the range of self can be used on arc nodes? such as the engine of destruction spell?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
1 more thing, i dont not like the wracks, its just that how am i supposed to play them? i dont want my army to be half dead from those guys death blasting, focus is good but, when should i use them? because with my luck they will all die the moment i use them

No, sadly 'self' spells can't be used by arc-nodes (it would be insanely good if they could - oh man, that'd make Reznik soooo awesome).

As for wracks, I suggest the flying V. One at the back of your deployment zone, right behind your caster, one on each flank (remember, they have advanced deploy, and they're a set of solos, so they don't care about coherency), where your caster can move to them to grab a focus as he moves up. Remember, your caster only has to be with CTRL range (so 14" for pKreoss) of them to use it, so they don't have to be that close to him. Just don't put them anywhere that your troops will have to stop, to prevent unnecessary casualties if they do go boom, and preferably behind a bit of terrain to keep them safe (though honestly, if your opponent is shooting at your wracks, shout with glee as they're not shooting your more expensive stuff).

so if i went

kreoss - 5 wj

templar - 8

fire of salvation - 9

choir - 3

deliverers - 5 ( these guys any good? i know they are rat 1 when they dont combined ranged attack, but still raining 6 small blast templates on light infantry that has to do something right? plus its 16 range, and has continuous fire when i use covenant of menoth on them )

temple flame guard + ua - 8

hierophant - 2

reclaimer - 2

wrack - 1

the covenant of menoth - 2

total - 35

looking at the covant and delivers i know they are piss poor at shooting unless they combined range attack and fire the 1 shot, but if it rains 6 templates that will scater a little off, but will still hit the general area and cause continuous fire, am i missing something or can i actually do that?

also can the choir stack its effects onto 1 jack? say the battle hymn can that all go onto 1 jack and give it + 12 on dice to attack and damage?

cant stack chior effects on one jack, but they can each bless 1 jack with what they have. 3 chior members = 3 jacks blessed.

For the Jacks, I wouldnt go with the templar. Reckoner is generally better for kreos, or any jack with guns. If you just want a heavy beatstick jack you might as well just get a crusader. dirt cheap with the same damage.

The only thing I dont agree with outside of the jack mentioned above is shooting vs melee. Both your jacks are melee, and your flameguard are melee but kreos is more ranged oriented and deliverers are your only ranged option. I would either shift a bit more one way or the other, or take jacks that can do both. your current shooting does not force your opponent to come after you, and I dont think your melee is strong enough at 35 points. Maybe switch over to errants who can fill shooting and melee roles or trade out jacks for a reckoner or vanquisher.

Delivers are pretty good at killing light infantry, you're right, but be prepared for working out a lot of scatters the time that takes is generally why they're not seen much competitively. They're great with pKreoss though, as when everything is knocked down, it's all DEF 5, so they can hit directly on 4s.

While the Templar and FoS are both very solid choices with Kreoss, I'd still recommend having at least one ranged jack though - the Templar and FIres of Salvation are both awesome jacks with Kreoss, but the threat of even a single ranged jack on his caster will help keep your opponent cautious, which will give you he edge (and shooting from Jack is much more threatening to casters, as you can boost their hit and damage when needed).

Now, looking at Focus support solos, I think you might be overloading them a little. You have a Heirophant, Wracks and a Reclaimer. Now, having extra focus is nice, but if you're only going to take two jacks, Kreoss can get away with just the Wracks, and save the points from the Heirophant and Reclaimer for more actual fighting models. If he were running 3-4 jacks in a 50pt game, getting the Reclaimer or Heirophant is great, but you can get by without the extra focus support at this sort of level. Turn one of those into a Vassal of Menoth, and the other, along with a point saved from minimizing the Choir could become a combat solo like Nicia or Vilmon.






Automatically Appended Next Post:

meneroth2 wrote:

For the Jacks, I wouldnt go with the templar. Reckoner is generally better for kreos, or any jack with guns. If you just want a heavy beatstick jack you might as well just get a crusader. dirt cheap with the same damage.

The Templar is actually not a bad jack to go with Kreoss, if you were planning on using a Melee jack anyway. On feat turn, you're auto-hitting knocked down targets in melee, which means you can, with 3 focus on him, use Beatback to push his way into the backfield.

 Maddermax wrote:
Delivers are pretty good at killing light infantry, you're right, but be prepared for working out a lot of scatters the time that takes is generally why they're not seen much competitively. They're great with pKreoss though, as when everything is knocked down, it's all DEF 5, so they can hit directly on 4s.

While the Templar and FoS are both very solid choices with Kreoss, I'd still recommend having at least one ranged jack though - the Templar and FIres of Salvation are both awesome jacks with Kreoss, but the threat of even a single ranged jack on his caster will help keep your opponent cautious, which will give you he edge (and shooting from Jack is much more threatening to casters, as you can boost their hit and damage when needed).

Now, looking at Focus support solos, I think you might be overloading them a little. You have a Heirophant, Wracks and a Reclaimer. Now, having extra focus is nice, but if you're only going to take two jacks, Kreoss can get away with just the Wracks, and save the points from the Heirophant and Reclaimer for more actual fighting models. If he were running 3-4 jacks in a 50pt game, getting the Reclaimer or Heirophant is great, but you can get by without the extra focus support at this sort of level. Turn one of those into a Vassal of Menoth, and the other, along with a point saved from minimizing the Choir could become a combat solo like Nicia or Vilmon.






Automatically Appended Next Post:

meneroth2 wrote:

For the Jacks, I wouldnt go with the templar. Reckoner is generally better for kreos, or any jack with guns. If you just want a heavy beatstick jack you might as well just get a crusader. dirt cheap with the same damage.

The Templar is actually not a bad jack to go with Kreoss, if you were planning on using a Melee jack anyway. On feat turn, you're auto-hitting knocked down targets in melee, which means you can, with 3 focus on him, use Beatback to push his way into the backfield.

thank you so much for your help, ill re-edit the list now


Automatically Appended Next Post:
p - kreoss unless there is another champion with alot of focus, denial, support spells, and can damage the enemy with magic attacks that im missing XD - 5 wj

rekoner/vnguisher - 8 i can decide on what to choose :<

templar/fire of salvation - 8/9 again i cant deside because fire is stronger melee, but templar is generally more defensive and can ignore shields, ( also with fire storm when is holy fervor a good idea, when your close to the enemy, or when they are taking pot shots at you, i think its best to keep in formation )

choir - 2

delivers - 5 to make it rain contoious fire effect rockets

temple flame guard + ua - 8 men who set stuff on fire

the covenant of menoth 2

hierophant - that d3 heal can turn games 2

if im taking the fire of salv then ill add a repenter - 4
if im taking the templar then ill add daughters of the flame - 5

repenter gives the temple of flame some backup

daughters of flame just make a mad dash to the caster and just charge unless that is not how you play them at all

unless you tell me something different

Deliverers aren't used very much due to their inaccuracy and no real way of improving it. They're good at killing light infantry, but a Vanquisher is far better at it while also being a decent all round heavy.

the Templar is a good melee jack, and also the most durable of our heavies, but it can take some practice to get the most use out of Beat Back. Which is an amazing ability, especially on something with Reach.

Every Menoth player should have at least one Reckoner. Its easily the best jack we have. P+S17 reach weapon, Spd5, a good gun that gives a debuff to what it hits, and built in Ashen Veil.


And the Covenant only gives Fire on a direct hit. A scatter will not get you Continuous Fire on the guys hit. This ability is best used on a target that doesn't have a chance to scatter and/or has a high chance of hitting. Errants and their crossbows are a good target. If the bow fails to kill the target it has a 2/3 chance of suffering Fire damage next turn, which is usually the kiss of death for most infantry and can even put a couple points of damage on a jack with above average rolling. A couple weeks ago I saw a Hunter get destroyed by fire damage.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Deliverers aren't used very much due to their inaccuracy and no real way of improving it. They're good at killing light infantry, but a Vanquisher is far better at it while also being a decent all round heavy.

the Templar is a good melee jack, and also the most durable of our heavies, but it can take some practice to get the most use out of Beat Back. Which is an amazing ability, especially on something with Reach.

Every Menoth player should have at least one Reckoner. Its easily the best jack we have. P+S17 reach weapon, Spd5, a good gun that gives a debuff to what it hits, and built in Ashen Veil.


And the Covenant only gives Fire on a direct hit. A scatter will not get you Continuous Fire on the guys hit. This ability is best used on a target that doesn't have a chance to scatter and/or has a high chance of hitting. Errants and their crossbows are a good target. If the bow fails to kill the target it has a 2/3 chance of suffering Fire damage next turn, which is usually the kiss of death for most infantry and can even put a couple points of damage on a jack with above average rolling. A couple weeks ago I saw a Hunter get destroyed by fire damage.

ok sounds like i need to re edit this list... again -_- but thanks for your info glad i didnt spend the money to buy them yet XD


Automatically Appended Next Post:
p - kreoss

rekoner - 8

rekoner - 8

crusader - 6

choir - 2

temple flameguard + ua - 8

hierophant - 2

vassal of menoth - 2

vassal of menoth - 2

reclamer - 2

ok so i just want your opinions im sure you'll say no but the rekoners get 2 shots thanks to vassal and get def 14 and arm 21 from vassal and crusader is just there to smash people's face in, while the choir makes them unable to be shot at ( exept by magic ) or boost their shooting and melee hit and damage, heiro helps keross heal and use spells, vassals keep the rekoner in check and alive, flame guard does what it does and reclamer eats the souls of what ever infantry dies

i just got this idea when editing the list


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jbsnv wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Deliverers aren't used very much due to their inaccuracy and no real way of improving it. They're good at killing light infantry, but a Vanquisher is far better at it while also being a decent all round heavy.

the Templar is a good melee jack, and also the most durable of our heavies, but it can take some practice to get the most use out of Beat Back. Which is an amazing ability, especially on something with Reach.

Every Menoth player should have at least one Reckoner. Its easily the best jack we have. P+S17 reach weapon, Spd5, a good gun that gives a debuff to what it hits, and built in Ashen Veil.


And the Covenant only gives Fire on a direct hit. A scatter will not get you Continuous Fire on the guys hit. This ability is best used on a target that doesn't have a chance to scatter and/or has a high chance of hitting. Errants and their crossbows are a good target. If the bow fails to kill the target it has a 2/3 chance of suffering Fire damage next turn, which is usually the kiss of death for most infantry and can even put a couple points of damage on a jack with above average rolling. A couple weeks ago I saw a Hunter get destroyed by fire damage.

ok sounds like i need to re edit this list... again -_- but thanks for your info glad i didnt spend the money to buy them yet XD


Automatically Appended Next Post:
p - kreoss

rekoner - 8

rekoner - 8

crusader - 6

choir - 2

temple flameguard + ua - 8

hierophant - 2

vassal of menoth - 2

vassal of menoth - 2

reclamer - 2

ok so i just want your opinions im sure you'll say no but the rekoners get 2 shots thanks to vassal and get def 14 and arm 21 from vassal and crusader is just there to smash people's face in, while the choir makes them unable to be shot at ( exept by magic ) or boost their shooting and melee hit and damage, heiro helps keross heal and use spells, vassals keep the rekoner in check and alive, flame guard does what it does and reclamer eats the souls of what ever infantry dies

i just got this idea when editing the list

apopn re reading the vassal i complty miss interpretated what it does.

so ignore above and i am again redoing the list -_-


Automatically Appended Next Post:
p kreoss unless somone suggests something else that might be better - 5 wj

2 rekoner - 8 each / 16 total

fire of salvation - 9

choir - 2

temple flameguard + ua - 8

hierophant - 2

reclamier - 2

wrak - 1


is this any better? i have alot of focus gaining skills, i have 2 good range jacks, i have an infantry fire/tar pit unit, i have choir to support the jacks, hierophant to heal and assist spells, wrak to be bombs or to give focus, fire of salvation to be the punch in the face, and kreoss for denail and spell shooting.

what could i possibly to do make this better?

First off, I would put two vassals back in the list. Enilven and ancillary attack are absolute gold. On to the battlegroup. I like double reckoners , though I might not play 3 heavies at 35, though I have done it. My preferred battlegroup is generally reckoner/redeemer, and I would go for the vanquisher or second reckoner if I had the points/felt like it. I've never tried fire with pKreoss, though I do enjoy him. I'm just not sure that you'll have the focus to run three jacks at 35 (though the reclaimer helps), and if you did I would suggest a redeemer before fire of salvation

EDIT: personally the redeemer goes in as the second jack, so what I should have said was I would throw in a second reckoner instead of FoS

BTNeophyte wrote:
First off, I would put two vassals back in the list. Enilven and ancillary attack are absolute gold. On to the battlegroup. I like double reckoners , though I might not play 3 heavies at 35, though I have done it. My preferred battlegroup is generally reckoner/redeemer, and I would go for the vanquisher or second reckoner if I had the points/felt like it. I've never tried fire with pKreoss, though I do enjoy him. I'm just not sure that you'll have the focus to run three jacks at 35 (though the reclaimer helps), and if you did I would suggest a redeemer before fire of salvation

EDIT: personally the redeemer goes in as the second jack, so what I should have said was I would throw in a second reckoner instead of FoS

well that list is dead and i re-edited it XD

I think you might like E kreoss better he gives you 1 more wjp and well as being immune to cuntinuos and making your explars immune and healing if a freindly dies and a melee weapon that havles the armor of med base and larger and give you a +2 to damage against small bases and the abillity to hand out fearless and the feat is pretty nice too all melee attacks in his controll area auto hit and gives a bonus hit which also auto hits

eKreoss is good, but he really requires a specialized list. Usually only 1 warjack at most and the rest of the points spent on Exemplar of various types to get the most mileage out of his Feat.

muagenreaper wrote:I think you might like E kreoss better he gives you 1 more wjp and well as being immune to cuntinuos and making your explars immune and healing if a freindly dies and a melee weapon that havles the armor of med base and larger and give you a +2 to damage against small bases and the abillity to hand out fearless and the feat is pretty nice too all melee attacks in his controll area auto hit and gives a bonus hit which also auto hits

Grey Templar wrote:eKreoss is good, but he really requires a specialized list. Usually only 1 warjack at most and the rest of the points spent on Exemplar of various types to get the most mileage out of his Feat.

yea if i had alot more money i would go e because his exemplar spam list seems pretty cool but for now i prefer reguler p version

 Grey Templar wrote:
Deliverers aren't used very much due to their inaccuracy and no real way of improving it. They're good at killing light infantry, but a Vanquisher is far better at it while also being a decent all round heavy.

Kreoss' feat turn. But that's only 1 turn. Isn't the vanquisher also aoe 4 and causes fire?

TechMarine1 wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Deliverers aren't used very much due to their inaccuracy and no real way of improving it. They're good at killing light infantry, but a Vanquisher is far better at it while also being a decent all round heavy.

Kreoss' feat turn. But that's only 1 turn. Isn't the vanquisher also aoe 4 and causes fire?

yes it does but its aoe 3 i belive ( dosnt have the book at hand atm )

 jbsnv wrote:

TechMarine1 wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Deliverers aren't used very much due to their inaccuracy and no real way of improving it. They're good at killing light infantry, but a Vanquisher is far better at it while also being a decent all round heavy.

Kreoss' feat turn. But that's only 1 turn. Isn't the vanquisher also aoe 4 and causes fire?

yes it does but its aoe 3 i belive ( dosnt have the book at hand atm )

Nope, its AoE4. And the Continuous Fire makes it great against things immune to blast damage, they still get set on fire.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 jbsnv wrote:

TechMarine1 wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Deliverers aren't used very much due to their inaccuracy and no real way of improving it. They're good at killing light infantry, but a Vanquisher is far better at it while also being a decent all round heavy.

Kreoss' feat turn. But that's only 1 turn. Isn't the vanquisher also aoe 4 and causes fire?

yes it does but its aoe 3 i belive ( dosnt have the book at hand atm )

Nope, its AoE4. And the Continuous Fire makes it great against things immune to blast damage, they still get set on fire.

7
that and with choir it goes from rat 5 to rat 7 and pow 14 to pow 16, and also adds + 2 to blasts so instead of 7 or 8 it would be 9