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What's the current view on the Daemon Icons....if an Icon bearer comes in from Reserves, is that Icon effective immediately for the next unit(s) coming from Reserve in the same turn? There's basically no current Daemons FAQ.

Being a Daemons player, I will argue that since the Icon (just arriving from Reserves) is in fact on the table before those other units are rolled for, then it should work.
What do other peeps say?

The wording of the icon seems to indicate that it applies and can be used immediately.

Yet there is the rule stating any ability that must be used at the start of the turn cannot be used the turn you arrive from reserves.

 Lord Krungharr wrote:

Being a Daemons player, I will argue that since the Icon (just arriving from Reserves) is in fact on the table before those other units are rolled for, then it should work.

That unit is not on table before other units are rolled for. When you arrive from reserve, you first roll for all units. Only after you have rolled for all units in reserve, those units start to arrive.

Relevant rule quotes from page 124:
roll a D6 for each unit being held in reserve .... If the roll is a 3 or more, that unit arrives this turn.
When Reserves arrive, the player picks any one of the units arriving and deploys it....
This is something that many players play wrong.

As far as the actual issue goes, other similar pieces of equipment have "X must have been on the battlefield at the start of the turn in order for it to be used", language which is lacking from Icon. So I'd say it works.

nosferatu1001 wrote: Yet there is the rule stating any ability that must be used at the start of the turn cannot be used the turn you arrive from reserves.

I see no mention that Icon of Chaos is an ability that must be used at the start of turn.
"In addition, if the first model from a friendly unit arriving by Deep Strike is placed within 6" of at least one model with an Icon of Chaos , the following rules apply:... (page 64, C:CD)

Also, that specific rule has been very much undermined by the BRB FAQ:

Q: Blessings are manifested ‘at the start of the Psyker’s Movement phase’ – does this mean they happen simultaneously with Reserves rolls, Outflanking rolls etc and if so which is resolved first? (p68)
A: They do occur simultaneously – as such, the player whose turn it is decides in what order these things occur as per page 9 of the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook.

edit: On second thought, this FAQ doesn't actually negate the "cannot use start of turn abilities while coming from reserves", even though at glance it would seem like it does.

Luide wrote:
I see no mention that Icon of Chaos is an ability that must be used at the start of turn.

It doesn't have to. If you want to use it to bring in reserves then you must use it at the start of the turn because that's when reserves arrive.

 Ghaz wrote:

Luide wrote:
I see no mention that Icon of Chaos is an ability that must be used at the start of turn.

It doesn't have to. If you want to use it to bring in reserves then you must use it at the start of the turn because that's when reserves arrive.

The Icon doesn't specify "Reserves;" it specifies "arrives from Deep Strike." For Daemons, that's not precisely the same thing (see Warp Storm #12).

Right. Icons aren't always used at the start of the turn.

I'd say that yes, if it arrives from reserves then it can immediately be used for other deep strikers.

Things arrive from reserve in a particular order, which order is significant. (For example, a DS unit may mishap on a unit that has also just arrived via DS. After DS, the unit is, for all purposes, on the table.)

If the Chaos Icon model is on the table, any unit arriving via DS within a set distance has permission to alter its scatter. The only restriction given is for the Icon to be present when physically placing the DS unit. So if the Icon arrives first, then the next unit may utilise the Icon.

 Ghaz wrote:

Luide wrote:
I see no mention that Icon of Chaos is an ability that must be used at the start of turn.

It doesn't have to. If you want to use it to bring in reserves then you must use it at the start of the turn because that's when reserves arrive.

You're categorically wrong here. Please read the actual Icon rules.
Icon of Chaos is not used to bring reserves in any way or form. In fact, rules for Icon of Chaos don't mention Reserves anywhere.

Icon just reduces DS scatter in some circumstances, no matter what time the DS is done.

No. You're wrong when you try and define 'must be' as 'can only be'. You can not use the icon on other units arriving on the board at the start of the turn on the same turn that the icon arrived on the table. In order for the other unts to use the icon it must be used when they arrive and per page 125 of the main rulebook that is not possible.

In order to reduce scatter, you must use the icon at the start of the turn and you can't "... use any abilities or special rules that must be used at the start of the turn in the turn it arrived from reserve".

 Ghaz wrote:
No. You're wrong when you try and define 'must be' as 'can only be'. You can not use the icon on other units arriving on the board at the start of the turn on the same turn that the icon arrived on the table. In order for the other unts to use the icon it must be used when they arrive and per page 125 of the main rulebook that is not possible.

In order to reduce scatter, you must use the icon at the start of the turn and you can't "... use any abilities or special rules that must be used at the start of the turn in the turn it arrived from reserve".

The icon isn't used at the start of the turn, the only stipulation is that if a unit enters via DS within 6 inches.

Which uses the Icon to reduce scatter. How is that NOT using the icon?

The Icon is used, but it isn't a "start of the turn" item.
It doesn't effect reserves, it reduces DeepStrike scatter, and DeepStriking isn't specially a reserve thing (Gate psychic power for example).

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Which uses the Icon to reduce scatter. How is that NOT using the icon?

The Icon's ability is not one that MUST be used at the start of the turn?

I see both sides of the argument here:
Pro: The Icon isn't solely used at the start of the turn, so the ability to reduce DS scatter is not one that must be used at the start of the turn.
Con: If you use the Icon to reduce scatter for a unit arriving from Reserves, that must be done at the start of the turn, so this particular usage of the icon must be used at the start of the turn.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Which uses the Icon to reduce scatter. How is that NOT using the icon?

Icons ability is not something that must be used at the start of the turn. This is the crux of the issue. Unless you argue that Icon only works at the start of the turn and not in any other case.

"Unless stated otherwise, a unit cannot charge, or use any abilities or special rules that must be used at the start of the turn, in the turn it arrives from reserve."

"must" does not equal "can only", as was already pointe out

MSUT the ability, in this instance, be used at the start of the term? Yes. By definition.

You are reading "can only", and making a mistake based from that.

The Icon of Chaos can be used on the turn it comes in from Reserves. Daemons use the same Deep Strike rules (BRB p.36) as everyone else, which use the same Reserves (BRB p.124) rules as everyone else. We are never told that Reserves arrive simultaneously, from Deep Strike or otherwise. In fact, we are told to place them one at a time:

"When Reserves arrive, the player picks anyone of the units arriving and deploys it, moving it onto the table as described below. Then he picks another unit and deploys it, and so on until all arriving units are on the table. The player can then proceed to move his other units as normal."

The rules for the Icon of Chaos (Codex p.64) don't state anything about needing to be on the table at the start of the turn. A Warlord trait in the same book ("Warp Beacon" on p.26) however makes this distinction quite clearly.

So until GW changes it in a FAQ/Errata update, so long as you place the unit with the Icon of Chaos down first, none of the other units will scatter if they meet the required criteria.

Absolutely. Icons that have arrived from reserve that turn can be used by further units to reduce their scatter.

The fact that models cannot use abilities or special rules that are required to be used at the start of the turn is irrelevant.

An Icon of Chaos can be used in the Shooting Phase as well, 'Summoned from the Warp'.

Again: you are reading "must be" as "can only be"

That isnt the correct parsing of that sentence. Until you address that, your argument continues to miss the point.

nosferatu1001: Who are you replying to? XT-1984? And out of curiosity, what sentence are you referring to exactly? Its not in reference to Icons of Chaos as far as I can tell so I'm wondering where it is coming from.

No where in the icons rules does it say it is activated or used. All it states is that if you place a model within 6" this happens. There is nothing to use or activate therefore the cannot be used doesn't even come into question. Also nowhere in the rules does it state all things in the phase happen simultaneously. That's like saying all your units fire at the same time so if unit a and b were both in range at the beginning of the phase and unit a kills enough models to put them out of range unit b can still fire.

There is absolutely no reason to assume that Daemon Icons cannot be used the turn they arrive. Again the rule in the rulebook that this whole question is about is (pg 125):

"Unless stated otherwise, a unit cannot charge, or use any abilities or special rules that must be used at the start of in the turn it arrives from reserve."

So the question is: Is an icon a special rule or ability that must be used at the start of a turn?

The answer is most clearly no. Special rules or abilities that must be used at the start of the turn say so right in their rules...they say 'at the start of the turn' or 'at the start of the movement phase' etc.

Icons, Teleport Homers, etc, all do not have any specific timing, which is why they normally all need to have the text in their rules specifically preventing them from being used on the turn they arrive, because without that, they are fair game to be used.


For anyone who thinks that an Icon is actually an ability or special rule that must be used at the start of the turn, please attempt to answer this question:

Can a Daemon Icon be used on the turn it arrives to reduce the scatter of a Deep Striking unit that arrives in the shooting phase (due to the Warp Storm table)? If no, why? If yes, what exactly has changed in the rules of the Icon that you now think it can be used on the turn it arrives in the shooting phase?

Because remember, all that matters is whether the ICON is a special rule or ability that must be used at the start of the turn...which is clearly not the case with an Icon, as it can be used in ANY phase to help reduce scatter from units arriving from Reserve.

To further clarify saying it is a used ability would be akin to saying that if a Big Mek with kff came in from reserves you would not get the 5+ cover for all units within 6" . Now if the icon entry said " at the begining of the turn this warhead may be activated to allow units arriving by deepstrike within 6" not to scatter". You would be completely correct.

What happens if you get a free unit from warp storm table on double 6, it deepstrikes in. It can use the icon to not scatter so it doesnt only have to be used beginning of the turn.

Again, its already been covered that 'must be' does not equal 'can only be' yet so many in this thread can not get past that.

Once again, you must use the icon when you want to reduce the scatter of a unit arriving on the board. If that unit arrives at the beginning of the turn, then you must use the icon at the beginning of the turn. If the unit arrives later in the turn, then you must use the icon later in the turn. You don't use an icon for a unit arriving at the beginning of the turn in the Assault phase, etc. Its really that simple.

Ghaz, your argument flies in the face of the text. Neither page 125 of the rulebook, nor the wording of the Icon, support the argument that the icon will not function. It's not a special rule that "must be used at the start of the turn".

Note that a Teleport Homer isn't either, which is why it has explicit language stating that it has to start the turn on the table in order to be used.

Ghaz 526932 56 be obliged or bound to by an imperative requirementbe obliged or bound to by an imperative requirement3813 14.jpg wrote:Again, its already been covered that 'must be' does not equal 'can only be' yet so many in this thread can not get past that.

Once again, you must use the icon when you want to reduce the scatter of a unit arriving on the board. If that unit arrives at the beginning of the turn, then you must use the icon at the beginning of the turn. If the unit arrives later in the turn, then you must use the icon later in the turn. You don't use an icon for a unit arriving at the beginning of the turn in the Assault phase, etc. Its really that simple.

Now you're abusing the word 'Must'.
Dictionary Definition: To be required or bound by imperative.

By your logic, every action is a must. I'm shooting at a squad of guardsman? Than 'I must shoot at them.' I'm eating a sandwich? 'I must eat a sandwich.' If I'm moving a squad of boys, 'I must move that squad.'
You are not bound to use the banner at the beginning of the movement phase. You can use it whenever. It's not even an ability, just a passive effect that influences things.

You are required to use some things at the beginning of the turn if it is to be used. You are not required to use the banner at the start of the turn if it is tobe used.

 Ghaz wrote:
Again, its already been covered that 'must be' does not equal 'can only be' yet so many in this thread can not get past that.

Once again, you must use the icon when you want to reduce the scatter of a unit arriving on the board. If that unit arrives at the beginning of the turn, then you must use the icon at the beginning of the turn. If the unit arrives later in the turn, then you must use the icon later in the turn. You don't use an icon for a unit arriving at the beginning of the turn in the Assault phase, etc. Its really that simple.

But all that matters per the actual RULES is whether the Icon is an ability or special rule that must be used at the start of the turn.

We all agree that Reserves must arrive at the beginning of the turn, but there is NOTHING that indicates that an Icon is an ability or special rule that must be used at the start of the turn.

So please, someone suggest some or any proof that an Icon is an ability or special rule that must be used at the start of the turn, because there literally is none.

Reserves are rolled at the start of the turn. Then any successful reserves are placed. Like shooting at different targets in turn, the owning player gets to choose this order, right?

I'm fairly sure that the Icon just says scatter is reduced within 6", so to me that would mean they have an effect the instant they hit the board themselves.