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Waaaghpower wrote:

Ghaz 526932 56 be obliged or bound to by an imperative requirementbe obliged or bound to by an imperative requirement3813 14.jpg wrote:Again, its already been covered that 'must be' does not equal 'can only be' yet so many in this thread can not get past that.

Once again, you must use the icon when you want to reduce the scatter of a unit arriving on the board. If that unit arrives at the beginning of the turn, then you must use the icon at the beginning of the turn. If the unit arrives later in the turn, then you must use the icon later in the turn. You don't use an icon for a unit arriving at the beginning of the turn in the Assault phase, etc. Its really that simple.

Now you're abusing the word 'Must'.
Dictionary Definition: To be required or bound by imperative.

By your logic, every action is a must. I'm shooting at a squad of guardsman? Than 'I must shoot at them.' I'm eating a sandwich? 'I must eat a sandwich.' If I'm moving a squad of boys, 'I must move that squad.'
You are not bound to use the banner at the beginning of the movement phase. You can use it whenever. It's not even an ability, just a passive effect that influences things.

You are required to use some things at the beginning of the turn if it is to be used. You are not required to use the banner at the start of the turn if it is tobe used.

Who'a abusing the word 'must'? Not me. From the MacMillan Dictionary:

2. used for saying that it is necessary or important to do something

Tomato plants must be watered regularly.

People must realize that there are limits to what we can do.

I've told you the truth. Must I keep repeating it?

We mustn't be late.

If you want to reduce the scatter, then yes you MUST use the icon, as in it is necessary to use the icon. If you don't want to reduce the scatter, then no it is not necessary to use the icon. By your defintion you'd be able to reduce the scatter without even having the icon in your army because you don't have to use it at all.

 yakface wrote:
But all that matters per the actual RULES is whether the Icon is an ability or special rule that must be used at the start of the turn.

We all agree that Reserves must arrive at the beginning of the turn, but there is NOTHING that indicates that an Icon is an ability or special rule that must be used at the start of the turn.

So please, someone suggest some or any proof that an Icon is an ability or special rule that must be used at the start of the turn, because there literally is none.

If you want to reduce scatter for units arriving at the beginning of the turn, then yes that is when you must (is necessary to) use the icon at the beginning of the turn. You don't get to reduce your scatter if you don't use the icon. It must be used if you want the desired results, but again that doesn't mean that its the only time it can be used. There is no defintion of the word 'must' that means 'can only be'. You can have something that must be used at different times and with the icon that is whenever you want to reduce the sctter of a unit coming onto the table.

 Ghaz wrote:

If you want to reduce scatter for units arriving at the beginning of the turn, then yes that is when you must (is necessary to) use the icon at the beginning of the turn. You don't get to reduce your scatter if you don't use the icon. It must be used if you want the desired results, but again that doesn't mean that its the only time it can be used. There is no defintion of the word 'must' that means 'can only be'. You can have something that must be used at different times and with the icon that is whenever you want to reduce the sctter of a unit coming onto the table.

That makes no coherent sense.

We have plenty of examples of special rules and abilities that have a specific timing associated with them, such as blessings and maledictions as well as tons of other abilities that have to be utilized at the start of the turn.

The rules for Icons have NO timing involved. They are always in effect, and apply whenever anyone arrives via Deep Strike whether it is at the start of the turn, in the shooting phase or in the assault phase.

What you are trying to say is that if a unit has ANY special rule AT ALL and that unit arrives from Reserve then it cannot possibly affect anything else arriving from Reserve?

So let's say the Grey Knight Warp Quake psychic power was just a special rule that Strike Squads had that was always in effect (any unit arriving by Deep Strike auto-suffers a mishap if it arrives within X inches of them). Would you actually be trying to claim that in this case their Warp Quake ability would not affect other units arriving by Deep Strike after them in the same turn?


So just to be clear...you really literally think that the rule about special rules and abilities that must be used at the start of the turn is not actually referring to abilities and special rules that actually say that they must be used at the start of the turn...you think that rule actually just applies to any and every special rule that a unit has the turn it arrives from reserve (it is unable to affect any other units arriving from reserve)?

 Ghaz wrote:

If you want to reduce scatter for units arriving at the beginning of the turn, then yes that is when you must (is necessary to) use the icon at the beginning of the turn. You don't get to reduce your scatter if you don't use the icon. It must be used if you want the desired results, but again that doesn't mean that its the only time it can be used. There is no defintion of the word 'must' that means 'can only be'. You can have something that must be used at different times and with the icon that is whenever you want to reduce the sctter of a unit coming onto the table.

The way you use the word "use" is irrelevant because of the fact that nowhere in the rules of an Icon says the phrase "must be used at the start of the turn." or any given phase. This is very explicit to many wargear and the icon does not have this phrase.

text removed.
Reds8n

Perhaps you should follow the Tenets of YMDC before you post again. There's no 'ego' involved, it's the way that I (and Nosferatu1001) read the rules. People can disagree and we don't need somebody like you trying to claim that I have some sort of ulterior motives.

So do you have something to add to this conversation or are you just here to break forum rule #1?

Ghaz, please answer what is correct way RAW to handle following hypothetical scenarios:
Assumptions: No model has armour save and all models can deep strike:

1) I Deep Strike Model with a piece of wargear that grants 4+ invuln to model and his unit and the unit hits difficult terrain and must make dangerous terrain test. Are models in unit allowed to use the 4++ invuln save against wounds caused by failed DT tests? Also explain why.

2) I have Deep Struck model with piece of wargear that grants everyone within 3" 4+ invuln save. I Deep Strike next unit within 3" on difficult terrain. Are the models in second unit within 3" of the first model allowed to use 4++ invuln save against wounds caused by failed DT tests. Also explain why.

Please make note that this DT test is done at the start of the turn.

Yak - I am saying that this is an ability that is being used, and because of when reserves arrive this INSTANCE of use must occur at the start of the turn.

This fulfils the text of the rule disallowing its use

You, and others, are parsing this rule as saying only rules which "can only be used" at the start of the turn cannot be used, except that isn't what "must" parses as. Yes, you can use the scatter reduction at other times, but that just emphasises the point the lat must is not the same as can only be.

Can you explain why you are parsing the sentence differently, and why you are limiting "must" to something not defined as the meaning of must?

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Yak - I am saying that this is an ability that is being used, and because of when reserves arrive this INSTANCE of use must occur at the start of the turn.

This fulfils the text of the rule disallowing its use

You, and others, are parsing this rule as saying only rules which "can only be used" at the start of the turn cannot be used, except that isn't what "must" parses as. Yes, you can use the scatter reduction at other times, but that just emphasises the point the lat must is not the same as can only be.

Can you explain why you are parsing the sentence differently, and why you are limiting "must" to something not defined as the meaning of must?

There are obviously rules in this game that are written with a very specific timing that they must be used at the start of a turn. Are you honestly trying to tell me that you think this rule in the rulebook is *NOT* written explicitly to cover these types of rules specifically and really applies to ANY special rule or ability a unit has that happens to be utilized during the 'start of a turn' when they arrive from Reserve?

You seem to keep dodging that question...the post above me puts the ludicrousness of what you're saying into a really good context:

I Deep Strike Model with a piece of wargear that grants 4+ invuln to model and his unit and the unit hits difficult terrain and must make dangerous terrain test. Are models in unit allowed to use the 4++ invuln save against wounds caused by failed DT tests?

In this case the unit has a special rule and it has arrived from Reserves this turn...as part of resolving the 'start of the turn' actions it must take dangerous terrain tests...it is the unit able to utilize its invulnerable save in this case?

And if so, how is this ANY different than what an Icon does?

The Icon has NO timing associated with its rules. It ALWAYS is in effect whenever a unit happens to DS within range of it, regardless of what part of the turn it is. So if you're claiming that ANY special rule or ability that a unit happens to have gets completely ignored during any 'start of the turn' actions, then you're honestly claiming a whole bunch of crazy premises.


And besides...say you're the rules author and you know there are rules that have a specific 'start of turn' timing to them. Say you want to write a rule disallowing such rules from being used by units on the turn they arrive from reserve. Don't you perhaps think you'd write it precisely the way it is written in the rulebook currently (assuming you don't have the knowledge of hindsight)?

No, as I would not use "must be" to mean "can only be".

I note you haven't attacked the basis of the argument, just the result. Are you now, like Luide, just making s hywpi argument? It isn't dodging the question when making a raw argument, I am just trying to not cloud the issue. I am simply showing what is currently written as the rule; if that is deemed unworkable, like others, then it can be changed via house rule. However it isn't particularly productive to lambast a posters argument as ludicrous just because it causes other issues in the game. That isn't attacking the validity of the argument presented as it wanders terribly close to the slippery slope fallacy.

I am not saying this is what they meant to say, as I'm not claiming knowledge of this specific rule, however this is, currently what the rule actually states.

If you disagree then please, show how this sentence does not parse the way we have stated , and show how you are not subconsciously replacing "must" with "can only"

Note: the question on timing of icon has already been answered. Yes it can be used at other times, however that has no bearing on the rule in question. Please do not raise it again, it is irrelevant

New point: You never 'use' the banner. It's always in effect. You never declare that it is being activated or turned on, it just exists. It's not an ability that is used, (at the beginning of the turn or otherwise,) it's just something that exists.

Instead of mass typing I'm going to agree with yak faces interpretations.

I've read both rules and no where does it state in either books that it has to be on the table at the start of the turn to be used.

Oversight by gw or deliberate? Until they clarify, or more likely if the ever clarify it, I guess we play it as reduces the scatter of units coming in within 6 inches of the icon bearer himself.

I'm thinking myself that its intensional on the part of GW.

Waaaghpower wrote:
New point: You never 'use' the banner. It's always in effect. You never declare that it is being activated or turned on, it just exists. It's not an ability that is used, (at the beginning of the turn or otherwise,) it's just something that exists.

So you dont use its ability to reduce scatter?

It may be passive, but you are certainly using an ability

Lung - the point is that this new, 6th edition rule, makes it so you dont need to put "may not be used unless the model is already on the table" - it has a *blanket* rule.

Lungpickle wrote:
I've read both rules and no where does it state in either books that it has to be on the table at the start of the turn to be used.

The aforementioned rule on page 125 says it has to be on the table as any special rule that must be used at the start of the turn can not be used by a unit arriving from reserve.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:
New point: You never 'use' the banner. It's always in effect. You never declare that it is being activated or turned on, it just exists. It's not an ability that is used, (at the beginning of the turn or otherwise,) it's just something that exists.

So you dont use its ability to reduce scatter?

It may be passive, but you are certainly using an ability

Lung - the point is that this new, 6th edition rule, makes it so you dont need to put "may not be used unless the model is already on the table" - it has a *blanket* rule.

If you're referring to the rule on page 125 of the BRB, I don't agree. That only references things that MUST be used at the start of the turn. The Icon has no such limitation. If you're not referring to page 125, please cite your source.

There is a huge difference between MUST be used at the start of the turn, and CAN be used at the start of the turn.

Sigh. its almost like we havent pointed out how your parsing of that sentence is "can only be", and not what is actually written.

Oh wait, we have.

MUST the ability be used at the start of the turn? Yes, because otherwise you arent using it at the start of the turn.

It can be used at other times. Totally not an issue, because the rule states "must be", and not "can only be"

Cite why you are parsing the sentnce as "can only be", page and paragraph.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Sigh. its almost like we havent pointed out how your parsing of that sentence is "can only be", and not what is actually written.

Oh wait, we have.

MUST the ability be used at the start of the turn? Yes, because otherwise you arent using it at the start of the turn.

It can be used at other times. Totally not an issue, because the rule states "must be", and not "can only be"

Cite why you are parsing the sentnce as "can only be", page and paragraph.

The way I read the rule on page 125 is that rules or abilities that contain timing restrictions that limit them to being used at the start of the turn cannot be used on the turn the unit arrives. That is how I parse that sentence.

It sounds like you're parsing it like this: 'rules or abilities that might might be involved in something that must happen in the beginning of the turn cannot be used on the turn the unit arrives'.

Is that accurate?

If the page 125 rule comes into play, why is there a specific exception on locater beacons?

Believe it or not, some wargear that functions similar to wargear in another Codex don't have the exact same rules. Locator Beacons specifically state in their special rule that they have to be on the table at the start of the turn in order to be used that turn. Icons of Chaos say nothing of the sort. Apples and Oranges. These things are similar in that they reduce scatter with Deep Strike (both are Fruit), but they aren't the same (ones an Apple and ones an Orange).

Or, one is a reminder, given we have this NEW 6th edition rule that talks about start of turn abilities.

undertow - you are reading "must" as "can only", when parsing page 125

There is nothing in the Chaos Icon rules to indicate that they must be used at the start of the turn. That is merely one time that they may wind up being used.

This is dumb. Seriously, compare the wording of the Icon to the wording of Teleport Homer. And to the wording of Locator Beacon. And to the wording of the Chaos Daemons Warlord Trait which removes scatter. The difference is obvious.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
undertow - you are reading "must" as "can only", when parsing page 125

I know this, and I honestly don't see anything wrong with that. Can you clarify for me if what I said in my previous post is correct:

'must == can only be' results in this parsing:
Rules or abilities that contain timing restrictions that limit them to being used at the start of the turn cannot be used on the turn the unit arrives.

Your interpretation results in this parsing:
Rules or abilities that might might be involved in something that must happen in the beginning of the turn cannot be used on the turn the unit arrives'.

Does that sound accurate?

Nos & Ghaz:

You guys keep replying without answering the fundamental question I keep asking. So let me try a third time:


You are saying that the rule on pg 125 of the rulebook is *not* specifically referring to special rules and abilities that actually say in their rules text that they must be used at the start of the turn. Instead, you are saying this rule applies to all special rules and abilities that must be used at the start of the turn given the circumstance of when the rule is applied...meaning ANY special rule or ability that would need to be applied while units are arriving from reserve would technically still be the 'start of the turn' and therefore could not be used by a unit that arrived from Reserve that turn.

This IS what you're saying, but I'd like you both to confirm that this is indeed the case.

And given that is what you're saying the following situations would also be true (just to give some absurd examples of what this means):

1) A unit that has a special ability to re-roll its saves Deep Strikes into DT at the start of the turn and fails some Dangerous Terrain tests. Given that their special rule allowing them to re-roll their armor save must, in this case, be resolved 'at the start of the turn' (as the unit is Deep Striking at the start of the turn) then this special rule cannot be used and the unit cannot re-roll its failed saves.

2) A unit has a special rule allowing it to move 12" in the movement phase (not going to try to argue whether the rules for increased movement for Jump Infantry, for example, is a 'special rule' or an 'ability', so for this example let's just pretend the unit actually has a 'special rule' listed that allows it to move 12" in the movement phase). The unit arrives from Reserve, but given that, in this case, the additional movement must be resolved at the start of the turn (as the unit arrives from reserve at the start of the turn), this special rule cannot be used and the unit may only move 6".


If you two can agree that this is what you're talking about, then I can personally bow out from this conversation as it is clear that you're simply arguing for the point of absurdity.

But if you're saying this is NOT what you're arguing, then please VERY CAREFULLY describe how the examples I've posted above are any different than the Daemon Icon situation.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Or, one is a reminder, given we have this NEW 6th edition rule that talks about start of turn abilities.

undertow - you are reading "must" as "can only", when parsing page 125

Like the 6th ed DA codex which states locater beacons must be on the table start of turn, or the 6th ed daemon dex we are talking about now. If one is a reminder why not on the other?

MarkyMark wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Or, one is a reminder, given we have this NEW 6th edition rule that talks about start of turn abilities.

undertow - you are reading "must" as "can only", when parsing page 125

Like the 6th ed DA codex which states locater beacons must be on the table start of turn, or the 6th ed daemon dex we are talking about now. If one is a reminder why not on the other?

can this question be answered please?

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Or, one is a reminder, given we have this NEW 6th edition rule that talks about start of turn abilities.

This, in fact, undermines your argument. The Dark Angles codex (written after the 6th rulebook) says this of the Teleport Homer, p64: "For this to work, the bearer of the teleport homer must have been on the board at the start of the turn." So, a shiny new codex that gives a specific instruction about things that reduce DS scatter. The Daemon codex lacks this wording. Why does the Daemon codex lack this restriction? Because if the restriction isn't there, it is given permission to work whenever it is on the table.

I think the intent is that it is not supposed to be usable for models arriving from Reserve (unless the icon was already on the table) but to help those arriving via Warp Storm.

 Happyjew wrote:
I think the intent is that it is not supposed to be usable for models arriving from Reserve (unless the icon was already on the table) but to help those arriving via Warp Storm.

But why would you even think that?

This is pretty much the ONLY Deep Strike reduction item I can think of that doesn't specifically say that it has to be on the table at the start of turn to be used.

Hell, even in the 4th/5th edition Daemon Codex rules for the Icon said that, so you can't even blame it on bad copy-paste!

 Happyjew wrote:
I think the intent is that it is not supposed to be usable for models arriving from Reserve (unless the icon was already on the table) but to help those arriving via Warp Storm.

Again, if this were true, why would a 6th ed codex (Dark Angels) have wording that clearly states this, while the 6th Daemons book does not have this wording?
Yak's point is further support of this idea: the writers left out that restriction on purpose, so that Daemons can cleverly order their reserves (with an Instrument and an Icon, for example, enabling quite precise DS reserves).

Again, redundant rules do not disprove other rules

Yak - we arent ignoring it. You are using a slippery slope fallacy to ignore the written rules by saying thy are absurd.

I dont think it is what they meant. However that is, so far, what they have written.

undertow - that is what I have said. Your parsing cannot b correct, as the meaning of "must be" is NOT "can only be".

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Your parsing cannot b correct, as the meaning of "must be" is NOT "can only be".

So the sentence:

1+1 must equal 2.

Is incorrect? At least common usage disagrees and I'm waiting for a plane so don't feel like searching dictionaries.