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 Ailaros wrote:
Wow, I don't think I've seen such incommensurability before. To put it another way, the argument appears to be similar to:

Person A: Vendettas are super overpowered!

Person B: The guard codex has ogryn and ratlings, and a whole bunch of stuff that isn't OP.

Only because you're missing the point. It's not that the weak FW units make the overpowered ones magically not overpowered, it's that:

1) The few overpowered units are not justification for a blanket FW ban, which would be the equivalent of banning the entire IG codex because of Vendettas.

and

2) Codex balance is already completely broken, so it's ridiculous to hold FW stuff to a much higher standard and demand that all FW units be perfectly balanced before allowing any of them.

What person A needs to understand is that there is a small group of people who DON'T just use codex stuff as a way of playing 40k on the easiest difficulty mode possible, and are only out to win games. Just because some people are sociopaths and take the most abusive stuff possible doesn't mean ALL people who use codex are that way, or that all codex units are necessarily overpowered.

Fixed that for you. Whether or not people play with FW rules and whether or not people play overpowered lists have nothing to do with each other.

As others have demolished this particular argument, I'm going to have a little bit of fun.

Glocknall wrote:


I love Forgeworld arguments. They usually start something like "Played this TFG at my game store and he used something called a Sabre and Vulture and tabled me!" Then you get 14 posts from FW loyalists shouting him down saying 99% of FW is fine and you just need to L2P, FW is actually underpowered and better balanced than 40k etc...

And then someone actually rational begins pointing out specific units to people like the Mantis Warrior Libby, Thudd Guns, Vultures, Sabres, LR Achilles, Artillery, etc and you get a better picture of what FW is. A bunch of cool looking fluffy models, with fluffy rules and a few horrendously broken units which every TFG WAAC douche will relentlessly spam to win games.

Chumby hit it on the head. In tournaments FW will quickly dominate the landscape as competitive players rush to close the gap with the guy on the leading edge.

Codex armies are easy to collect and you know where to go get their rules. FW units are spread over 12 books and do not update well between editions.

There are so many reasons why FW is just not there yet, but all the fanboys do is ignore the actual facts and make broad generalizations.

Translation: Herp derp. Derp? Derpaderp. Herpyderp.

Herp herp herp derp derp derp.

Derp? Derp.

Not a single FW unit even approaches the current utter dominance of the 6e Necrons, IG, and GKs with nothing but codex units, the most infamous ones being the Vendetta, Dread knight, and Night Scythe.

In my opinion, the only real downside to FW is that the rules can be difficult to track down. If you don't really know what you're doing, it can be hard to know which FAQ versus which book is more current, and which unit is available in which book. Thus it can be difficult to track down what you may be facing and you sometimes have to trust your opponent, which can often be terrible. (For example, the first time I played against 6ed Chaos Space Marines, I was told that Mauler Fiends were AP2 and TL....after a lot of dead Grey Hunters with TDAWGs, I was wondering why you didn't see Maulerfiends in every competitive list).

I have since educated myself on Chaos...and on FW (I have a beautiful Vulture, and some of the dreaded Arty Carriages and Sabres, haha)

I just hate how unclear this stuff is.

Like IA 8, after the Dread Mob Codex, they have this random index of all these other units. Can I use them or not? Why can Codex: Orks take 3 Big Traks per slot and the Dread Mob only one? Can my Battlewagons take Supa Kannons now because that battlewagon entry says they can? How do I run a Meka Dread in my codex Orks list, when to do so I need to run a Mega Dread in that list, but theres no way of actually running that Dread in Codex: Orks?

 Dakkamite wrote:
Why can Codex: Orks take 3 Big Traks per slot and the Dread Mob only one?

Why can C:SM only take a special and heavy in a tactical squad, while SW can take two special weapons? Sometimes similar units in different armies have different options.

Can my Battlewagons take Supa Kannons now because that battlewagon entry says they can?

Can my IG veterans take a Razorback because the entry for a C:SM tactical squad says they can?

How do I run a Meka Dread in my codex Orks list, when to do so I need to run a Mega Dread in that list, but theres no way of actually running that Dread in Codex: Orks?

IA:Apocalypse 2 tells you how to take a Mega Dread in a codex list.

 Dakkamite wrote:
I just hate how unclear this stuff is.

Like IA 8, after the Dread Mob Codex, they have this random index of all these other units. Can I use them or not? Why can Codex: Orks take 3 Big Traks per slot and the Dread Mob only one? Can my Battlewagons take Supa Kannons now because that battlewagon entry says they can? How do I run a Meka Dread in my codex Orks list, when to do so I need to run a Mega Dread in that list, but theres no way of actually running that Dread in Codex: Orks?

The thing about IA:8's odd style is that when the signature "May take" says, it's because it's telling you what ELSE you CAN take for it. It won't tell you "You can take X" it'll tell you "You can take X in 1-25" or "You need X to take Y", but it won't tell you "You can take X" it's confusing.

Thankfully now they've got a far easier way of showing things, but here's some answers for some of those troublesome ones.

You can take the Mega-dread normally.

Yes you could take Supa Kannons. (not a big fan of this btw, I mean it makes for a nice shoot wagon, but dang is it expensive!)

Codex Orks is Different from a Dread Mob down to clan and unit base. It's like how the new "Dark Harvest" list for necrons gets different choices because of the way the army works. (Usually by fluff reason)

No battlewagons for Dread Mob then?

Oh well, two out of three is alright in my book. Where did you find those answers anyway? Have they FAQed it somewhere, or is this hobby a bit less anal about RAW than I thought it was?

Glocknall wrote:

Except that Al'rahem only makes his unit outflank so you lose their fire power turn one and the entire platoon must outflank, including the Sabers.

You mean entire platoon and why in the world are you taking the sabres in his platoon when you need another platoon to guard them with your entire 50 man blobb. In fact you probably cannot take vendettas now as you just spent all your points on mantis marines, sabres, and thudd guns. May the emperor not allow any area terrain, LoS blocking terrain, long ways deployment, land raiders, nobz bikers, wraiths, harlequins, etc...or you will loose the game on both kills and objectives.

Glocknall wrote:

Heldrakes are broken, no doubt but no way on earth is a Vendetta "broken". Its undercosted by 25-40 points. That's all. How many 3+ vendetta lists have won a GT? None to my knowledge. When you take thatr many Vends, you realize all your anti tank gets rolled into them and if you put scoring in them you find out you need that firepower for early turns. The rest of your army withers on the vine.

Wow and you claim the vulture is broken? How in the world is a vendetta which is better in every way but vector dancing and cheaper by over 20 points not OP but the vulture is? I play guard and have 4 vendettas and can easily say they are far more important in every battle than the vulture ever has been.
3 vendettas get 2 PCS (4xflamer) and 1 SWS (3xflamer) in them and cost 540 points and have removed the 2x30 point carrier cost and first blood bait that is the PCS from the board so I can now get first blood. The rest of my army gets to be massed infantry behind an aegis and manticores behind LoS blocking terrain. I also get to target alot of side armour turn 2 when I come in at an angle. The lascannon toting infantry and manticores usually do more than enough lifting for me to stay in the game.

Glocknall wrote:

Yes I have heard of Barrage. Have you heard of LoS? Remember your LoS on to T7 models right? Walk up and kill him? Guard Blob Bubble wrap. Remember said Thudd Guns and Sabre are decimating your infantry from turn one on. People just dont understand how good Multiple barrage is with 4+ shots. If you roll a hit, you can place the template anywhere in contact with the others placed. This means you can net 2-3 hits per Hit! rolled. With 12 shots your looking at 4 Hit!s and anywhere from 9-12 hits per shooting phase. And that's assuming maximum displacement.

Have you ever actually used this weapon? I have and can confidently say the griffon is superior. You completely ignore the scatter of the initial shot which 60+% of the time will take you way off you "perfect" placement on those supposedly within 1.5" models. You also ignore the enitre fact that the remaining shots only have a 1/3 chance to roll a hit. Your 12 shot barrage should roll 4 total hits and if one of those is not the first shot you will be a sad panda lets assume then you are going to get your 12 hits. You have S5 so against orks (the ideal enemy to use this against) you will wound 8 times and kill 5 ork boyz as they have a KFF. 5 ork boyz is pathetic and you should have taken a manticore or 2 griffons as this was a semi-ideal case. 8 is only a semi decent kill rate as this is against ork boyz which are the best target for this sort of weapon.

Vindicare assassins don't exist?

Have you heard of nobz bikers? You were so willing to give up your HS slots so I doubt you have S10. Good luck with your speed bumps.

It is also not possible that you are playing tau and they brought a riptide which absolutely loves your bunched up guys.

They also could not have brought a landraider w/ TH/SS terminators or be DA and DWA TH/SS terminators next to you line.

Finally Why did they not bring an artillery with S7 or greater? It is not like one of the most popular artillery models currently being fielded has S10 AP4 and loves to lay large blast templates in the middle of a huge blobb of relatively bunched up models...heck if it doesn't scatter it will even snipe the lord commissar which you can LOS off onto crew but don't forget it also puts all the hits on the lord commissar so you may have to LOS quite a few of those every turn. You can't even choose to move them when the LC dies and you don't like the bunched up deployment.

 Dakkamite wrote:
No battlewagons for Dread Mob then?

Oh well, two out of three is alright in my book. Where did you find those answers anyway? Have they FAQed it somewhere, or is this hobby a bit less anal about RAW than I thought it was?

Most of those were the agreed upon rules by Forgeworld users. Most users use this generally agreed upon list to determine whether or not something can be used within a non-apocalyptic game because it helps newer people to figure out if something is "40k legal" or "Apocalypse only"

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B0VsFRrZtHE2bmFiSmxpeGJSb0E/edit?pli=1

Those without "40K approved" generally come from before they started the standard.

Also you still get the Battlewagon (It's apart of the FW book after all and you can still use them within the list ) but you can't use it as a Dedicated transport with the Cybork slasha mob It'll have to be taken as a Heavy Support slot.

For the FW haters, bring a DKoK or Siege Assault list, go fight a grey knight or neurons cheese list with nothing but Codex units. Enjoy getting pummeled. Your fancy FW tank? Vendetta. Vulture? Night scythe. Sabre platform? Long fangs. DKoK riders? Azrael guard blob. Siege assault marines with typical buffs? Hell drakes. Contemptor dreads? Vendettas/scarabs/any jerk with haywire spam. Decimators? See before. Avengers? Missilesides.

There is no FW unit that can't be trashed by normally spammed GW units in most competetive lists. Even titans can go down like chumps to vendettas with grav chuting melta vets.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Dakkamite wrote:
No battlewagons for Dread Mob then?

Oh well, two out of three is alright in my book. Where did you find those answers anyway? Have they FAQed it somewhere, or is this hobby a bit less anal about RAW than I thought it was?

Most of those were the agreed upon rules by Forgeworld users. Most users use this generally agreed upon list to determine whether or not something can be used within a non-apocalyptic game because it helps newer people to figure out if something is "40k legal" or "Apocalypse only"

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B0VsFRrZtHE2bmFiSmxpeGJSb0E/edit?pli=1

Those without "40K approved" generally come from before they started the standard.

Also you still get the Battlewagon (It's apart of the FW book after all and you can still use them within the list ) but you can't use it as a Dedicated transport with the Cybork slasha mob It'll have to be taken as a Heavy Support slot.

That seems more than fair to me - the doc put those wheels on the Slashaz for a reason after all! Cheers for the list, that simplifies things quite a bit!

Good luck with it then!

 Peregrine wrote:

Wow, a whole 9-12 pulse rifle hits. That's slightly better than basic fire warriors with no markerlights at 30", as long as you don't include the cost of the commissar. What an amazing unit to spend a heavy support slot on.

Also, you only get 9-12 hits if your first shot doesn't scatter so far that even hits on the following shots fail to get very many models under the template.

I was only counting the number of hits gained from HIT! rolled on the scatter die. I didn't add the hits you might have gained from arrow rolls which just flip from the center blast. Not everyone deploys their units in straight lines with max displacement. Many actually like to use terrain and happen to get models closer in displacement. You actual game results will be much better in most cases.

Frankly this discussion is going nowhere. If FW fanboys can't concede that their are at least a few terribly conceived units in Forge World then any discussion over the matter is pointless.

I have two players in my local group who use forge world. One has a beautifully painted Plague Drone in his fluffy Nurgle CSM list. Never had a problem with it and I prefer it to the new GW Plague Drones. The other is our local TFG who has assembled Sabres and Thudds with spare bits, and a converted vulture.. 95% of players have no clue what the units do and then just stand mouth agape when he prosecutes his shooting phase. Guess which player has been pushing for universal acceptance of Forge World in our local tournaments?

Yup.

And in my FLGS the FW users all fart rainbows and ride into the store upon dinosaurs. See? I can make up useless anectdotes too.

The Vulture is at best a wannabe vendetta. The punisher isn't really good unless you really mass it, and even then you'd be better served with Dakka russes if you want to throw bucket of dice. The Vulture is barely competitive with the Vendetta. Because the Vulture's versatility is meaningless in the face of the vendettas absurdly low cost, ability to dump a veteran squad anywhere, and triple twin linked las cannons garaunteeing the bloody demise of whatever it shoots. Oh and you can take them in threes so even Trygons can die in one round shooting.

The saber? Peh, the Vendetta is so ludicrous at attaining air superiority that the Saber can be entirely superflous, and it's not like aegis are expensive. It's nice but no game winner.

The thudd gun? The only thing scary about it is the amount of dice that will need to be rolled for such an underwhelming effect. You want scary? Try advancing under massed basilisks, medusas, colossi or manticores. Now that will shatter your sky. Thudds? Congratulations, you killed fewer gaunts than you would have with their cost in guardsmen. Now cry as my spammed Tervigons replace them with interest in one turn.

Frankly this discussion is going nowhere. If FW fanboys can't concede that their are at least a few terribly conceived units in Forge World then any discussion over the matter is pointless.

Technically your 'discussion' never went anywhere because you've been insulting, condescending, and overall rude when it comes to this debate.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Frankly this discussion is going nowhere. If FW fanboys can't concede that their are at least a few terribly conceived units in Forge World then any discussion over the matter is pointless.

Technically your 'discussion' never went anywhere because you've been insulting, condescending, and overall rude when it comes to this debate.

I like how he dodges around anyone pointing out that all the real powerhouse units are firmly GW made.

 kronk wrote:

cod3x wrote:
I really like alot of the rules they have for all the armies, but each and everyone is OP compared to the GW counterparts. It's like homebrew deathstar factories.

I haven't had this experience at all, actually. There are a few models that are certainly powerful (Sabre Platforms for IG, Contemptor Dreadnoughts with Kheres Assault Cannons, and Lucious Pattern Drop Pods), but most of the units from IA books have higher point costs than comparable units from codices.

The IA army lists are generally worse than what you could make if you ran allies together. For example, I could make a better Tyrant's list using the IG codex for allies and the Space Marine book as the primary, than I could with the rules in Imperial Armor 9. Same for the renegade lists in IA: 5-7 versus what Chaos Space Marines + IG allies could field.

Is someone in your area dominating the store games or tournaments with Forge World lists?

You want OP? For a laugh a gamign friend of mine has kind of merged GW and FW rule sand created a monster. .
Death Company Contemptor Dreadnought. All the fun of a normal Contemptor, but with Blood Talons, Furious Charge, Rage, and other BA gubbins.

Nightmare

 Praxiss wrote:

 kronk wrote:

cod3x wrote:
I really like alot of the rules they have for all the armies, but each and everyone is OP compared to the GW counterparts. It's like homebrew deathstar factories.

I haven't had this experience at all, actually. There are a few models that are certainly powerful (Sabre Platforms for IG, Contemptor Dreadnoughts with Kheres Assault Cannons, and Lucious Pattern Drop Pods), but most of the units from IA books have higher point costs than comparable units from codices.

The IA army lists are generally worse than what you could make if you ran allies together. For example, I could make a better Tyrant's list using the IG codex for allies and the Space Marine book as the primary, than I could with the rules in Imperial Armor 9. Same for the renegade lists in IA: 5-7 versus what Chaos Space Marines + IG allies could field.

Is someone in your area dominating the store games or tournaments with Forge World lists?

You want OP? For a laugh a gamign friend of mine has kind of merged GW and FW rule sand created a monster. .
Death Company Contemptor Dreadnought. All the fun of a normal Contemptor, but with Blood Talons, Furious Charge, Rage, and other BA gubbins.

Nightmare

Terminators and Dreadknights say hi.

 Praxiss wrote:

 kronk wrote:

cod3x wrote:
I really like alot of the rules they have for all the armies, but each and everyone is OP compared to the GW counterparts. It's like homebrew deathstar factories.

I haven't had this experience at all, actually. There are a few models that are certainly powerful (Sabre Platforms for IG, Contemptor Dreadnoughts with Kheres Assault Cannons, and Lucious Pattern Drop Pods), but most of the units from IA books have higher point costs than comparable units from codices.

The IA army lists are generally worse than what you could make if you ran allies together. For example, I could make a better Tyrant's list using the IG codex for allies and the Space Marine book as the primary, than I could with the rules in Imperial Armor 9. Same for the renegade lists in IA: 5-7 versus what Chaos Space Marines + IG allies could field.

Is someone in your area dominating the store games or tournaments with Forge World lists?

You want OP? For a laugh a gamign friend of mine has kind of merged GW and FW rule sand created a monster. .
Death Company Contemptor Dreadnought. All the fun of a normal Contemptor, but with Blood Talons, Furious Charge, Rage, and other BA gubbins.

Nightmare

Except that one exists, there is a BA Contemptor that can get Furious Charge (Has the Red Thirst ability), can get Blood talons for free, but doesn't have the rage.

It's not really that OP, it does very well (if it reaches combat to begin with ) but it's certainly not OP.

he basically took the BA Contemptor and added the the additional POitns and rule syou get withthe Death Company Furioso dread from the codex.

He drops it from the back of his Stormraven and it basicaly blendss anything in PA to paste - and doesn't stop till either the squad is gone or until all of its' S8 Ap3 attacks fail to wound (thanks to Blood talons every successful woudn generates another auto-hit.....which wounds on a 2 and then auto kills a marine - denying armour and FNP thansk to S8).

 Praxiss wrote:
he basically took the BA Contemptor and added the the additional POitns and rule syou get withthe Death Company Furioso dread from the codex.

He drops it from the back of his Stormraven and it basicaly blendss anything in PA to paste - and doesn't stop till either the squad is gone or until all of its' S8 Ap3 attacks fail to wound (thanks to Blood talons every successful woudn generates another auto-hit.....which wounds on a 2 and then auto kills a marine - denying armour and FNP thansk to S8).

And at its base cost, it'd be a 425 combo with nothing else. Not counting anymore points.

Not to mention should it be shot down in transit, as it's a very meaty target to hit. Not to mention it's a Turn 3 assault at best should reserve rolls go badly, not to mention if they decide to move before your able to hover means they'll be at a better position to make it worse for you to head through.

It's also worth nothing that it doesn't have assault grenades, so units in cover are better defended against it.

Glocknall wrote:
I was only counting the number of hits gained from HIT! rolled on the scatter die. I didn't add the hits you might have gained from arrow rolls which just flip from the center blast. Not everyone deploys their units in straight lines with max displacement. Many actually like to use terrain and happen to get models closer in displacement. You actual game results will be much better in most cases.

Hrm, not likely. All this is assuming the 1/3 chance of your initial shot hitting (thus ensuring that the remaining 11 don't get wasted as well). If you assume take into account that a majority of the time it is going off target (and with a Small Blast, any deviation is huge) then its killing potential drops.

Frankly this discussion is going nowhere. If FW fanboys can't concede that their are at least a few terribly conceived units in Forge World then any discussion over the matter is pointless.

You're largely targetting the wrong ones and/or making them out to be far more of a problem than they are. When you're trying to claim that Vultures are far and away more broken than Vendettas, expect to get told otherwise.

I will chip in with my personal experience at the FLGS.

First of all I play Space Wolves and Eldar. I play lots of FW with my Eldar but nothing with my SW.

Hornets are great, love them. Overpowered for their cost? I don't think so.

Warp Hunters, got 2 of them.

The whole psychological barrier of the D Strength is funny to watch. Some people keep screaming that it's abusive. Yet...it needs a 5 to Pen no matter what the AP. Yes it can happen shooting at a DE Venom with a D-Strength weapon only to have it glance because you rolled a '4'. Yeah an autocannon would score a Pen on that. It's a matter of stepping back and comparing effects and then you realize it's not as bad as people make it seem on paper.

Warp Hunters are Falcon Chassis unit with no energy fields like Wave Serpents. They die just the same.

I agree the Warp Hunter is devastating against infantry but when you look at it with perspective, it's basicly a Wraithguard rifle that fires in torrent mode because it's on a tank. Wounds the same, same AP, same effects. As for the large blast versus infantry it wounds on 2 with AP2. How many other weapons do that? The answer is many.

People need to get over the whole D-Strength phobia and actually look at the pros and cons of it. It's not worse than some guard tanks or a vindicator.

Third unit that I own and love is my Phoenix Bomber. I will admit the firepower is awesome and scary. It is a very powerful unit in my eyes BUT is it OP? No. Is it undercosted? No. Is it appropriately costed for what it does? I think so. The price is comparable to a Storm Raven and you get an AV10 flyer with good survivability until someone vector strikes you and then you just die. Heck you can be brought down with Bolters.

As for the expensive tanks that are immune to melta. There are LOTS of ways to get around that. People need to stop clinging to melta like it's a safety blanket. Think outside the box a bit. The Land Raider Achilles is immuned to melta AND lance. But still...can be dealt with in many more ways.

Lucious Assault Drop Pods are good, specially with Ironclads in them but there is a limit. 3 max per army and a tax (point cost) and restrictions (Blood Angels cannot take them). Any army that fields 3 ironclads in Lucious pods will have a lack somewhere else. Gives something to focus on and exploit. Dreadnoughts are limited by their mobility. Not saying their arrival will not be painful but it's not the end of the world either.

By this point I think it's fair to say that what little credibility Glock had is by now utterly destroyed.

Being a player who uses FW and gets FW used against me on a regular basis...the respective power levels of FW units are FAR more balanced than those of 5th Edition Codexes in 6th Edition.

Just my two cents.

I usually field things like Wasp Assault Walkers, Nightwing Interceptors, and Firestorms. Some flavor of fast fire support and AA/Flyers. Sure, my Nightwings don't die often, and they do kill stuff once in a while...but they still aren't as dominating as units like Arks, Flying BK Breakfast Sandwhiches or Vendettas.

And I get items like Contemptors and Lucius Pattern Drop Pods tossed at me on a regular basis. Harder to deal with than equivalents like Vanguard, Teleporting Dreadknights? Hell no.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Erik_Morkai wrote:
I will chip in with my personal experience at the FLGS.

Hornets are great, love them. Overpowered for their cost? I don't think so.

Warp Hunters, got 2 of them.

The whole psychological barrier of the D Strength is funny to watch. Some people keep screaming that it's abusive. Yet...it needs a 5 to Pen no matter what the AP. Yes it can happen shooting at a DE Venom with a D-Strength weapon only to have it glance because you rolled a '4'. Yeah an autocannon would score a Pen on that. It's a matter of stepping back and comparing effects and then you realize it's not as bad as people make it seem on paper.

Warp Hunters are Falcon Chassis unit with no energy fields like Wave Serpents. They die just the same.

I agree the Warp Hunter is devastating against infantry but when you look at it with perspective, it's basicly a Wraithguard rifle that fires in torrent mode because it's on a tank. Wounds the same, same AP, same effects. As for the large blast versus infantry it wounds on 2 with AP2. How many other weapons do that? The answer is many.

Third unit that I own and love is my Phoenix Bomber. I will admit the firepower is awesome and scary. It is a very powerful unit in my eyes BUT is it OP? No. Is it undercosted? No. Is it appropriately costed for what it does? I think so. The price is comparable to a Storm Raven and you get an AV10 flyer with good survivability until someone vector strikes you and then you just die. Heck you can be brought down with Bolters.

As for the expensive tanks that are immune to melta. There are LOTS of ways to get around that. People need to stop clinging to melta like it's a safety blanket. Think outside the box a bit. The Land Raider Achilles is immuned to melta AND lance. But still...can be dealt with in many more ways.

Lucious Assault Drop Pods are good, specially with Ironclads in them but there is a limit. 3 max per army and a tax (point cost) and restrictions (Blood Angels cannot take them). Any army that fields 3 ironclads in Lucious pods will have a lack somewhere else. Gives something to focus on and exploit. Dreadnoughts are limited by their mobility. Not saying their arrival will not be painful but it's not the end of the world either.

QFT on the Eldar items. I'll add that those Skyfire/Interceptor Icarus on ADLs and Bastions do a great job if making that Ironclad in a Lucius a total waste of 225+ points. I'd imagine that Broadsides with Interceptor would have the same effect if not a better one.

Sorry, but this thread lost any credibility when someone suggested the Mantis warrior libby was "reasonable"

If you can't even concede on that point, there is no point discussing any other unit from anything, ever.

Hetelic wrote:
Sorry, but this thread lost any credibility when someone suggested the Mantis warrior libby was "reasonable"

If you can't even concede on that point, there is no point discussing any other unit from anything, ever.

So, are you going to address any of the other myriad of points, or just continue to spout your non-sense?

 Sasori wrote:

Hetelic wrote:
Sorry, but this thread lost any credibility when someone suggested the Mantis warrior libby was "reasonable"

If you can't even concede on that point, there is no point discussing any other unit from anything, ever.

So, are you going to address any of the other myriad of points, or just continue to spout your non-sense?

If you've failed to read every other post I've made in the same way you failed to properly read my previous post, no wonder this discussion is going nowhere :-/

Hetelic wrote:
Sorry, but this thread lost any credibility when someone suggested the Mantis warrior libby was "reasonable"

If you can't even concede on that point, there is no point discussing any other unit from anything, ever.

Your paying +65 points for a librarian who gains:

Seize Initative
One reroll for psyker casts per player turn.
Shroud/disordered charge power.
Chapter Tactics replaced by Infiltrate.
Divination.

That is literally all you are getting. I've seen scarier things within the same book, I'd sooner fear Bray'Arth Ashmantle then I would for Ahazra Redeth.

He's not all that special, nor do I fear him. I see no reason to concede anything.

Hetelic wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

Hetelic wrote:
Sorry, but this thread lost any credibility when someone suggested the Mantis warrior libby was "reasonable"

If you can't even concede on that point, there is no point discussing any other unit from anything, ever.

So, are you going to address any of the other myriad of points, or just continue to spout your non-sense?

If you've failed to read every other post I've made in the same way you failed to properly read my previous post, no wonder this discussion is going nowhere :-/

I've read all four of your posts in this thread. You've contributed nothing, and not addressed any of the other points made by Vakathi, or Peregrine on the various FW units, such as the Thuddgun, that you said was OP.

You posts lack any substance or contribution.