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 IHateNids wrote:
To those of you who are complaining about Necrons.

Am I right in stating that you are complaining because of two builds in particular: Bakery and Wraithwing?

I play Necrons, and only have 2 Flyers, and do not intend on getting more. I also have never fielded Wraiths outside of obscene point games. I also hate the models for them. *ducks under the butthurt*

I rely more on luck and good commanding than WAAC-ish 'TAC' lists. As such, I am frequently completely crushed (as happygolucky will back up, ive lost count of how many times hes tabled me). On the flipside, I have an unfortunate habit of rolling too many 6s (yes you just read that) and in doing so perform a lot better than I should in certain situations. A time comes to mind when I one-shotted (well, one-solvo'd, but that dosent have the same ring to it XD) an Iron Arm'd Flyrant out of the air with an Annibarge, my first shot in that match. (again, happy will verify)

These type of things lend the game the enjoyment for me, and I think its such a shame when too many people just play WAAC.

But I agree, it is more the mindset of the player than the list. For instance, CSM. Happy could go and bring triple turkey, triple Fiend, Lucius Blastmasters everywhere if he was WAAC. He dosent, because he plays for the fun, as do I. His usual list is a Warpsmith, Cultist Blob, 3 nilla squads and then custoimisation. Quite fun to see across the field, as opposed to most of what this thread is complaining about.

Yes all these are true but you do seem to bring the habit of putting MSS too all your lords

Although I must say IHateNids you are getting the advantage over me atm as im using my Orks atm and they keep running into gunline ...

But I do say the game becomes more fun when we don't play competitively as it doesn't seem too limit us too our choices, which makes the game and armies more... balanced but this is just my opinion...

Happy, when have I ever played Gunline?

Not even in the old dex where thats all I could do...

and MSS is kind of a necessity, its all we have against assault...

Well, no they arent, but I do think that it makes for a more fun list. All mine ever do is make a squad leader run himself through. They havent ever done what they were designed for, the crippling of MCs

 IHateNids wrote:
Happy, when have I ever played Gunline?

Not even in the old dex where thats all I could do...

and MSS is kind of a necessity, its all we have against assault...

Well, no they arent, but I do think that it makes for a more fun list. All mine ever do is make a squad leader run himself through. They havent ever done what they were designed for, the crippling of MCs

Calm down man, im only having a bit of a giggle hence the .

But in all honesty we both play fun games, we should play more narrative scenarios that would be cool

have ya thought about getting IA12? that might have some good scenarios for my CSM to pit against your crons...

Agreed. a Meat Grinder as the Tomb World awakens would be funny as hell

Well... id say more of a campaign for us to play were in fluff we could both have the potential to win instead of "the fall of etc,etc,etc"

But anyho back to topic, I think its all about competitiveness that make people cry OP as if you play competitive the game becomes a crippling match of rock, paper, scissors however if you play the game more along the lines of beer and pretzels the game becomes a lot more in-depth and you forget about winning and watch as your stuff doing epic things, imo this is what makes people cry OP to everything you see, as I see more people cry OP in the competitive area than the beer and pretzels area, but that just my opinion.,,

People blame the army because people are dimwitted, Also shifting the blame seems to be in fashion.

The most a new army and it's latest rules can do is give an "easy mode" for which units to pick that require the least effort for best results on the part of the player. The units that many people "auto-include" are just the one which are easiest to get to do what they are supposed to do, so most players are too lax to go any further.

Its because the fact that meltaguns are too easy to get so people get angry, for 10 pts, you can kill almost anything bar a landraider

All you have to do is get within 1/5 of that Land Raider's gun range, without it's supporting troops toasting you.

I play for fun, and only fun. Same as all my friends i game with. We have cool themed armies, not power gaming lists. I just don't see 40k as something to be taken so seriously!

 stargasm wrote:
I play for fun, and only fun. Same as all my friends i game with. We have cool themed armies, not power gaming lists. I just don't see 40k as something to be taken so seriously!

Have an exalt for being a fellow beer and pretzel gamer.

Drew

It is frustrating being a Necron player and hearing people groan when you tell them. And then having to explain you started before the codex release back in 5th....

No one seems to realize that its only 1 certain list that is WAAC and the codex is actually pretty balanced and very beatable!

Necrons certainly don't rolfstomp everything instantly!!

 AegisGrimm wrote:

If they don't blame the army, they'd have to blame themselves.

Exactly. Nerds are the kings of shifting the blame away from themselves, and of the knee-jerk reaction. I know, I am a Nerd.

What really??? Holy gak a nerd on dakka.. GET 'IM BOYZ!!!!

bosobo wrote:
Its because the fact that meltaguns are too easy to get so people get angry, for 10 pts, you can kill almost anything bar a landraider

QFT: mine have a habit of sniping HQs you know, its dastardly when an enemy warlord cops it to a meltagun shot.

Though people will balme anyhting to hide their mistakes on both a tactical and strategic level...

take a game i played last week. My GK Vs IG, Mission Emperors will (happy campers!- now where did i put the deck chair and a good book... ). Now the strategy for me was simple as he was going first deny, him first blood and get it myself. then he has to wipe me out to win...

Suffice to say it took him 4 turns to kill my Landriader, despite having 3 vendettas, 2 vanquishers, oh and lots of meltas that could not hit a barn door despite being veterans. i buggered him up my blowing up a chimera with first blood and then i hid behind cover so i avoided most of his firepower, and as my objective was placed in a bunker with my termres and HQ sitting on it, it was going to be a hard job for him to actually see them let alone shoot them out of it.

I won in the end, jammy rolling on turn 5

He whined about the stupidity of the mission when the balme rested on him using his army wrong on many levels, if i was playing his army i could have won, oh and me placing my units carefully from the start .

After the game he said he had expected me to attack him with the army he had... err no chance, that would have been suicide for no good reason- hence the sweet victory, 3 vendettas didn't win him the game there then

Some never learn to think logically....

To be fair, I am a notorious complainer, but I seldom complain in games.

For Instance, I think the Heldrake is an awful piece of game design, and really sucks the fun out of the more competitive scene for me. Why is this you ask?
1) its fast enough so that you can place that template pretty much anywhere on the board the turn it comes in, with no RISK (except from interceptor). Compare this to Deep Striking with Flame Templates, which is an incredibly risky gambit, and not ap3.
2) It costs less than 200 points for av12, it will not die, 5++, and Flyer.

I think the Heldrake is stupidly over powered for the points you end up paying for it, and I think that providing a crutch like the Heldrake to make CSM competitive is over centralizing and truely emphasises piss poor game design. As for over centralization, try posting a decent sized CSM list without a Heldrake, I can almost guarentee the first 5 posts or so will tell you to get a Heldrake, its pathetic.

As a result I make my position on the Heldrake very clear, and refuse to add them to my Chaos Space Marine lists- for better or for worse as a statement.

NOW, that is not to say that I wouldn't play against someone with a Heldrake, and its not to say that I wouldn't be a good sport losing to Drake Spam. But the point is Heldrakes are still at the end of the day an over powered crutch to the CSM army, and I firmly believed that Phil dropped the ball big time in their implementation.

I feel similarly about Necron French Bakery, but aside from troop fliers with tl tesla destructors costing less than a Wave Serpent, I think Necrons are generally fine.

 akaean wrote:
To be fair, I am a notorious complainer, but I seldom complain in games.

For Instance, I think the Heldrake is an awful piece of game design, and really sucks the fun out of the more competitive scene for me. Why is this you ask?
1) its fast enough so that you can place that template pretty much anywhere on the board the turn it comes in, with no RISK (except from interceptor). Compare this to Deep Striking with Flame Templates, which is an incredibly risky gambit, and not ap3.
2) It costs less than 200 points for av12, it will not die, 5++, and Flyer.

And other flyers are not? a Vendetta is 130pts which is cheaper than a Helldrake you get 3 twin-linked lascannons and it is a transport and AV12, a storm raven has a Technically Skyfire twin-linked multi-melta that has a possible threat range of 36" (24" for moving, 12" for melta range), oh yeah it can also house dreadnoughts as well as a squad and has the immune to melta rule IIRC.

Both these units are more than capable of taking the Helldrake down, also Quad-guns are very effective at taking these things down, as well as Tau have a lot of Skyfire now, to take it down and Skyfire is becoming more frequent now as more codex's are being produced or can get access to getting them easily imo.

I think the Helldrake is stupidly over powered for the points you end up paying for it, and I think that providing a crutch like the Helldrake to make CSM competitive is over centralizing and truely emphasises piss poor game design. As for over centralization, try posting a decent sized CSM list without a Helldrake, I can almost guarantee the first 5 posts or so will tell you to get a Heldrake, its pathetic.

Isn't that with the majority of the posts are on list making on on Dakka? you ask for help and all they say is use "Netlist X or Y" and if you say you like other units they say its usually a bad list and you should feel ashamed for using it, yes I understand that it is frustrating as well, but then that is a shared blame half for the codex, half for the competitive players...

Now I don't know if you played the codex before the latest one but its elder edition was terrible, its sucked so bad that every CSM player used too bend over and get slapped repeatedly with a cricket bat with rusty nails attached to it, it got to a point where you either used "Lash spam/Nurgle and Slannesh or GTFO" and even then it was very difficult to pull off a victory, a new codex with nice stuff was needed (including the Helldrake).

Now with the new codex the army is balanced, even with the Helldrake there are many methods of taking it out with ease, the only thing that really makes it scary is its torrent flamer but that's only one weapon compared to other flyers, and as more hardback come out there are more ways to deal with these flyers and all codex's are becoming more balanced imo mainly because no unit is terrible and in the list making area there are people with a variety of lists and its is not just simply "Netlist X or Y" anymore which is great also we are seeing a wider variety of lists on the battle reports and even in YouTube battle reports because of these gradually new books coming out, which is a great privilege imo.

Also I only play with one Helldrake and I never use it a "A clutch" in fact I never rely on it to do anything, I more think of it as an added bonus to my army then the centre of my army like other players do (that title belongs to my other beasties in the heavy support section ), but like I say I feel like your saying that the Helldrake in indestructible when yet there are multiple ways of taking them down.

 happygolucky wrote:
And other flyers are not? a Vendetta is 130pts which is cheaper than a Helldrake you get 3 twin-linked lascannons and it is a transport and AV12, a storm raven has a Technically Skyfire twin-linked multi-melta that has a possible threat range of 36" (24" for moving, 12" for melta range), oh yeah it can also house dreadnoughts as well as a squad and has the immune to melta rule IIRC.

Both these units are more than capable of taking the Helldrake down, also Quad-guns are very effective at taking these things down, as well as Tau have a lot of Skyfire now, to take it down and Skyfire is becoming more frequent now as more codex's are being produced or can get access to getting them easily imo.

Really? the Vendetta? Unquestionally one of the most undercosted models in the entire game right now. I wasn't talking about Guard, I was talking about Chaos. OBVIOUSLY the Vendetta is overpowered- it was priced to be an av12 skimmer in 5th edition, and even then it was too cheap for the amount of fire power it had. The flier rules just made it completely OOT. Storm Ravens are balanced because the things cost as much as a landraider, and have underwhelming fire power for that cost (albiet decent anti air). A Heldrake can take decent Anti Air as well, but they don't because the Bale Flamer is too good. Saying that a Baleflamer should cost about 60 points on top of the Heldrake's cost, is absolutely not an argument that Vendettas aren't stupidly undercosted, and I have no idea how you could interpret it as such.

I also think you totally missed my point. Its not that the Heldrake is unkillable, as you have aptly pointed out, it is very killable. The problem is that you have a 170 point flier, that is still unquestionably difficult to kill, which can easily kill entire squads of Space Marines every turn it is allowed to fire, and totally ignoring your enemy's tactics (for example, cover will not help, even with the best positioning possible you will still take nearly 6 hits due to torrent, field position is meaningless since it has flier movement and torrent, and most transports aren't the most helpful, since the Heldrake can easily strip 2 hullpoints from a Rhino with Vector Strike before flaming the inhabitants). Pretty much the only way to protect a squad is to hide it in a Land Raider until a direct counter can kill the Heldrake. This is obnoxious.

As for Sky Fire, TAU have a lot of skyfire, nobody else really does, outside their own fliers. Quad Guns are limited to 1, and need an excellent gunner (here is looking at you Crack Shot + Tank Hunter Fire Dragon Exarch) to have a solid chance at killing a fresh Heldrake (glancing on a 5, vs a 5+ invuln and it will not die is tricky) Havocs can buy Flack Missiles, but once again only s7 vs av12, 1 shot per model, expensive, and incredibly vulnerable to the Bale Flamer. At this point in time, only Tau truely have access to plentiful enough sky fire outside of their own fliers to truely counter fliers with skyfire. Tau are only 1 army, you have been given no reason to believe that any of the new codexes down the line will be given more anti air than CSM or Dark Angels were given. The only thing that is certain, is everybody will probably get some fliers of their own, which at least balances the field a bit.

 akaean wrote:

 happygolucky wrote:
And other flyers are not? a Vendetta is 130pts which is cheaper than a Helldrake you get 3 twin-linked lascannons and it is a transport and AV12, a storm raven has a Technically Skyfire twin-linked multi-melta that has a possible threat range of 36" (24" for moving, 12" for melta range), oh yeah it can also house dreadnoughts as well as a squad and has the immune to melta rule IIRC.

Both these units are more than capable of taking the Helldrake down, also Quad-guns are very effective at taking these things down, as well as Tau have a lot of Skyfire now, to take it down and Skyfire is becoming more frequent now as more codex's are being produced or can get access to getting them easily imo.

Really? the Vendetta? Unquestionally one of the most undercosted models in the entire game right now. I wasn't talking about Guard, I was talking about Chaos. OBVIOUSLY the Vendetta is overpowered- it was priced to be an av12 skimmer in 5th edition, and even then it was too cheap for the amount of fire power it had. The flier rules just made it completely OOT.

Exactly my point, There are worse flyers that can do more damage at your army than the Helldrake.

A Heldrake can take decent Anti Air as well, but they don't because the Bale Flamer is too good. Saying that a Baleflamer should cost about 60 points on top of the Heldrake's cost, is absolutely not an argument that Vendettas aren't stupidly undercosted, and I have no idea how you could interpret it as such.

I also think you totally missed my point. Its not that the Heldrake is unkillable, as you have aptly pointed out, it is very killable. The problem is that you have a 170 point flier, that is still unquestionably difficult to kill, which can easily kill entire squads of Space Marines every turn it is allowed to fire, and totally ignoring your enemy's tactics (for example, cover will not help, even with the best positioning possible you will still take nearly 6 hits due to torrent, field position is meaningless since it has flier movement and torrent, and most transports aren't the most helpful, since the Heldrake can easily strip 2 hullpoints from a Rhino with Vector Strike before flaming the inhabitants).

Exactly, it is meant to be a massive daemonic dragon that pouts warp fire into the foe, it should be a weapon to fear, but on top of that it will do that for one turn before it is most likely shot down by something so this can be a one turn thing.

As for Sky Fire, TAU have a lot of skyfire, nobody else really does, outside their own fliers. Quad Guns are limited to 1, and need an excellent gunner (here is looking at you Crack Shot + Tank Hunter Fire Dragon Exarch) to have a solid chance at killing a fresh Heldrake (glancing on a 5, vs a 5+ invuln and it will not die is tricky) Havocs can buy Flack Missiles, but once again only s7 vs av12, 1 shot per model, expensive, and incredibly vulnerable to the Bale Flamer. At this point in time, only Tau truely have access to plentiful enough sky fire outside of their own fliers to truely counter fliers with skyfire. Tau are only 1 army, you have been given no reason to believe that any of the new codexes down the line will be given more anti air than CSM or Dark Angels were given. The only thing that is certain, is everybody will probably get some fliers of their own, which at least balances the field a bit.

Now with the flyers currently out the only one that will have trouble with the Helldrake is the Dakkajet, now including that 11 armies have flyers that means that most armies have a counter against the Helldrake and add to the fact of Armies that don't will have access to a ADL. Most likely a Helldrake will survive is 2 turns before being shot down by high Str weapons in Skyfire or none at all due to intercept, and as said before the Helldrake has only one weapon as opposed to the many weapons on other flyers, also adding in that the Baleflamer is a infantry killer meaning it will only damage the small guys and very weak transport (as you have said) but it will wont take out those big things that it needs to take out for its own protection, hence why it is balanced, it kills things that can be important to the game if the situation calls for it but it cannot defend itself for the big guns in your army.

 happygolucky wrote:


Most likely a Helldrake will survive is 2 turns before being shot down by high Str weapons in Skyfire or none at all due to intercept, and as said before the Helldrake has only one weapon as opposed to the many weapons on other flyers, also adding in that the Baleflamer is a infantry killer meaning it will only damage the small guys and very weak transport (as you have said) but it will wont take out those big things that it needs to take out for its own protection, hence why it is balanced, it kills things that can be important to the game if the situation calls for it but it cannot defend itself for the big guns in your army.

One thing I cannot help but notice, is that you are confusing overpowered in general, with being able to destroy an entire army by itself. I have never said that the Heldrake was capable of destroying an entire army by itself, but that does not change the fact that it is too cheap for what you get no matter how you slice it. A unit doesn't need to be able to kill landraiders if it can land s6 ap3 templates anywhere on the board the turn it comes in, and Vector Strike something to boot. If you play Tau, and your skyfire has a 2+ armour save, then yea, Heldrakes are fairly easy to counter, if you play Marines... 2 Heldrakes can kill pretty much your entire Troops Selection and leave you unable to claim objectives unless you squirell them away in Land Raiders or Storm Ravens. Also Heldrakes are capable of dealing with many of their counters (Havocs: Bale Flamer before they even get a chance to fire flakk, same with Long Fangs, etc, Hydra can be killed with Vector Strike, although good deployment can give you a round of shooting) The only things in the game the Heldrake cannot muscle through are Land Raiders, other av12 fliers, and 2+ saves.

You make it sound like most armies in the game can easily kill multiple Helldrake in a single turn. This is misguided at best. By the time most armies can clear the skies of Heldrakes, they have lost all of their troops, and are playing to Draw the game at best. That is why Heldrakes are so scary.

If a Unit is so powerful that it shifts the entire metagame to "Unit" vs "lists built around countering Unit". Something is wrong. If a Unit is so powerful that every list built out of that codex needs to include 2-3 or be scoffed at as uncompetitive, you have a problem. If you have a Unit that is consistantly seen in top tournament tables accross the world, you have a problem. None of these facts explicitly show that the Heldrake is overpowered, but they sure do point in that direction.

 akaean wrote:


You make it sound like most armies in the game can easily kill multiple Helldrake in a single turn. This is misguided at best. By the time most armies can clear the skies of Heldrakes, they have lost all of their troops, and are playing to Draw the game at best. That is why Heldrakes are so scary.

That may well be my fault... I have taken out both of Happy's drakes within 5 minutes of each other in one game.

If a Unit is so powerful that it shifts the entire metagame to "Unit" vs "lists built around countering Unit". Something is wrong. If a Unit is so powerful that every list built out of that codex needs to include 2-3 or be scoffed at as uncompetitive, you have a problem. If you have a Unit that is consistantly seen in top tournament tables accross the world, you have a problem. None of these facts explicitly show that the Heldrake is overpowered, but they sure do point in that direction.

Necrons have the same problem with Wraiths. only problem is, they are just 2W Marines, and die just as easily

 akaean wrote:

 happygolucky wrote:


Most likely a Helldrake will survive is 2 turns before being shot down by high Str weapons in Skyfire or none at all due to intercept, and as said before the Helldrake has only one weapon as opposed to the many weapons on other flyers, also adding in that the Baleflamer is a infantry killer meaning it will only damage the small guys and very weak transport (as you have said) but it will wont take out those big things that it needs to take out for its own protection, hence why it is balanced, it kills things that can be important to the game if the situation calls for it but it cannot defend itself for the big guns in your army.

One thing I cannot help but notice, is that you are confusing overpowered in general, with being able to destroy an entire army by itself. I have never said that the Heldrake was capable of destroying an entire army by itself, but that does not change the fact that it is too cheap for what you get no matter how you slice it. A unit doesn't need to be able to kill landraiders if it can land s6 ap3 templates anywhere on the board the turn it comes in, and Vector Strike something to boot. If you play Tau, and your skyfire has a 2+ armour save, then yea, Heldrakes are fairly easy to counter, if you play Marines... 2 Heldrakes can kill pretty much your entire Troops Selection and leave you unable to claim objectives unless you squirell them away in Land Raiders or Storm Ravens. Also Heldrakes are capable of dealing with many of their counters (Havocs: Bale Flamer before they even get a chance to fire flakk, same with Long Fangs, etc, Hydra can be killed with Vector Strike, although good deployment can give you a round of shooting) The only things in the game the Heldrake cannot muscle through are Land Raiders, other av12 fliers, and 2+ saves.

You make it sound like most armies in the game can easily kill multiple Helldrake in a single turn. This is misguided at best. By the time most armies can clear the skies of Heldrakes, they have lost all of their troops, and are playing to Draw the game at best. That is why Heldrakes are so scary.

If a Unit is so powerful that it shifts the entire metagame to "Unit" vs "lists built around countering Unit". Something is wrong. If a Unit is so powerful that every list built out of that codex needs to include 2-3 or be scoffed at as uncompetitive, you have a problem. If you have a Unit that is consistantly seen in top tournament tables accross the world, you have a problem. None of these facts explicitly show that the Heldrake is overpowered, but they sure do point in that direction.

Ok so you mention Marines well what do marines have to combat Helldrakes? simple ADL, the Stormtalon and the Stormraven one has a twin-linked lascannons and the other has a twin-linked melta, and another has interceptor twin linked and Skyfire. These usually do the trick against the Drakes...

Yes they do kill troops but that's their role in the army to kill infantry and small man units, they don't do anything else, as well as that they don't kill hordes of troops as well as people think as I have used mine to set alight a Eldar blob once killed quite a few as well, but they still didn't budge and more importantly the whole squad did not die, the same applies to any horde blob such as Ork mobs, Gaunt blobs, etc.

Also, do I really need to mention Hyperios platforms?

Helios? what do they do?

basically they are skyfire Twinlinked Krak Missiles IIRC

LOL, the argument over can you kill a heldrake/vendetta is ludicrous. Sure you can, the much maligned Nephilim would be excellent at killing one. My issue is you have an 1850 list but now you have to shell out 150$ + to purchase the counter plus you have to reduce your army to 1500 points to counter the possible game changing effect of 2+ helldrakes or + vendettas. This is not whinning at the player but whinning against GW for the overt money-grab that this has turned into.