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My friend uses GK, and he will often activate hammerhand, which he says is from the justicar, and then turn on the force weapons using the squad, or vice versa. I don't see anything in his codex that allows this, am I missing something?

He can't do it with Justicars, but if if an Independent Character (or I think Thrawn allows this) joins the squad, then it is allowed.

No, the Justicar does not have his own mastery level to cast with, he's part of the squad.

Justicar Thawn is an exception. He is Mastery Lvl2 and doesn't have BoP. So he can cast HH and effect the squad and then the squad activates their force weapons. He will have to activate his NFW separately.


And any character that joins the squad can help as well. In fact you can get HH cast multiple times from different sources and get multiple strength buffs.

A Librarian joined to Justicar Thawn's terminator squad can get you a total of +3 str from three hammerhands. One from the Libby, one from Thawn, and one from the squad. And if the Libby has Might of Titan he can cast that for another +1str(and 2D6 armor penetration)

A GK squad using brotherhood of psykers has to choose, they can only cast one psychic power a turn. The only way to get both hammerhand and force weapons is to join an IC with the hammerhand power to the squad, the rules for hammerhand specifically state that the power applies to the entire unit.

 Grey Templar wrote:


A Librarian joined to Justicar Thawn's terminator squad can get you a total of +3 str from three hammerhands. One from the Libby, one from Thawn, and one from the squad. And if the Libby has Might of Titan he can cast that for another +1str(and 2D6 armor penetration)

GK p21. "A GK unit uses the Ld of its Justicar or KotF (if he's alive), or the unit (if he's dead) for Psychic tests." Thawn does not have the BoP rule, and the model is not called "Justicar," but rather, "Justicar Thawn." Does this mean, then, that a GK unit with Thawn does not have a Justicar? The unit can only use its own Ld if the Justicar is "dead." Since there is no Justicar in the first place, he cannot have died. Does this mean that a Termie unit w/ Thawn can never cast HH or NFW, and only Thawn can cast it? When Thawn dies and comes back, does this mean that that Termie squad is left w/o psychic powers?

As he doesn't have the BoP rule, they don't use his Ld nor will a Perils be resolved against him. They revert to the rule of what a squad without a Justicar does to cast psychic powers.

You guys should probably re-read the Nemesis Force Weapon rules. In the case of Thawn, following the mastery level rules, Thawn may use 1 warp charge to activate Hammerhand for his squad at the start of CC, but before initiative steps are followed. As soon as 1 unsaved wound is dealt by his squad, both Thawn and his squad use 1 warp charge each (total of 2 warp charges) to activate their Nemesis Force Weapons on a single psychic check at Ld10. If any Perils are generated, the wound would assign to Thawn as he is the squad's Justicar per his own rules.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
You guys should probably re-read the Nemesis Force Weapon rules. In the case of Thawn, following the mastery level rules, Thawn may use 1 warp charge to activate Hammerhand for his squad at the start of CC, but before initiative steps are followed. As soon as 1 unsaved wound is dealt by his squad, both Thawn and his squad use 1 warp charge each (total of 2 warp charges) to activate their Nemesis Force Weapons on a single psychic check at Ld10. If any Perils are generated, the wound would assign to Thawn as he is the squad's Justicar per his own rules.

SJ

This has absolutely no rules basis.

Justicar Thawn is not their Justicar - he doesn't have the Brotherhood of Psykers rule also, so if the squad suffered a Perils! it would have to be assigned to one random member of the Terminator Squad (barring Thawn).

Grey Templar wrote: No, the Justicar does not have his own mastery level to cast with, he's part of the squad.

Justicar Thawn is an exception. He is Mastery Lvl2 and doesn't have BoP. So he can cast HH and effect the squad and then the squad activates their force weapons. He will have to activate his NFW separately.


And any character that joins the squad can help as well. In fact you can get HH cast multiple times from different sources and get multiple strength buffs.

A Librarian joined to Justicar Thawn's terminator squad can get you a total of +3 str from three hammerhands. One from the Libby, one from Thawn, and one from the squad. And if the Libby has Might of Titan he can cast that for another +1str(and 2D6 armor penetration)

This is the correct way to play it.

Iranna.

 Iranna wrote:

Grey Templar wrote: No, the Justicar does not have his own mastery level to cast with, he's part of the squad.

Justicar Thawn is an exception. He is Mastery Lvl2 and doesn't have BoP. So he can cast HH and effect the squad and then the squad activates their force weapons. He will have to activate his NFW separately.


And any character that joins the squad can help as well. In fact you can get HH cast multiple times from different sources and get multiple strength buffs.

A Librarian joined to Justicar Thawn's terminator squad can get you a total of +3 str from three hammerhands. One from the Libby, one from Thawn, and one from the squad. And if the Libby has Might of Titan he can cast that for another +1str(and 2D6 armor penetration)

This is the correct way to play it.

Iranna.

This might not be true. See my post above for rules quote.
Summary: The Justicar casts the psychic power (if alive) or the squad casts it (if the J is dead). Since the Termie squad has never had a "Justicar" model (it was replaced with a model called "Justicar Thawn"), he cannot be either alive or dead. There is, therefore, no way for the Termie squad to cast a psychic power.

GK codex, pg. 91, under "Justicar Thawn"

One Grey Knight Terminator squad can upgrade their Justicar to Anval Thawn.

GK codex, pg. 54, under "Nemesis Force Weapons"

Note that a unit of Grey Knights with the Brotherhood of Psykers special rule needs to take only a single Psychic test to 'activate' all of its force weapons ...

As far as the rules as written are concerned, Thawn is the Justicar for his unit as he is an upgraded squad Justicar. However, Thawn does not have BoP while his squad does. Per the actual rules as written, when Thawn's squad activates their NFW, only a single activation roll is made. Also per the rules as written, any Peril wounds will be assigned to Thawn as he is the squad's Justicar. To put a finer point on this question, Grand Master becomes the 'Justicar' of his squad as soon as any Ghost Knight models are on the table; Ghost Knights have BoP while Mordrak is not an Independent Character ... just like Thawn.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
GK codex, pg. 91, under "Justicar Thawn"

One Grey Knight Terminator squad can upgrade their Justicar to Anval Thawn.

GK codex, pg. 54, under "Nemesis Force Weapons"

Note that a unit of Grey Knights with the Brotherhood of Psykers special rule needs to take only a single Psychic test to 'activate' all of its force weapons ...

As far as the rules as written are concerned, Thawn is the Justicar for his unit as he is an upgraded squad Justicar. However, Thawn does not have BoP while his squad does. Per the actual rules as written, when Thawn's squad activates their NFW, only a single activation roll is made. Also per the rules as written, any Peril wounds will be assigned to Thawn as he is the squad's Justicar. To put a finer point on this question, Grand Master becomes the 'Justicar' of his squad as soon as any Ghost Knight models are on the table; Ghost Knights have BoP while Mordrak is not an Independent Character ... just like Thawn.

SJ

as he is an upgraded squad Justicar

Please can you show me where it says he functions as a justicar for the squad? Just because he has Justicar in his name does not make him the squad's Justicar. Just as a Heavy flamer is not actually Heavy.

Per the actual rules as written, when Thawn's squad activates their NFW, only a single activation roll is made

Yes, the unit takes one test to activate their Force Weapons as per Brotherhood of Psykers (BoP). However, Thawn does not have the BoP rule and so, must activate his Force weapon, and indeed any other psychic power, by himself. Thus 2 rolls are made: 1 for the squad and 1 for Thawn.

Also per the rules as written, any Peril wounds will be assigned to Thawn as he is the squad's Justicar.

Please see my first point. Furthermore, he does not have the BoP rule, how can he therefore abide by it and be allocated the Perils! wound?

Grand Master [Mordrak] becomes the 'Justicar' of his squad as soon as any Ghost Knight models are on the table; Ghost Knights have BoP while Mordrak is not an Independent Character ... just like Thawn.

Completely and utterly false. Quick frankly, I'm astounded you could make such a logical leap.

Iranna.

 Iranna wrote:

Yes, the unit takes one test to activate their Force Weapons as per Brotherhood of Psykers (BoP). However, Thawn does not have the BoP rule and so, must activate his Force weapon, and indeed any other psychic power, by himself. Thus 2 rolls are made: 1 for the squad and 1 for Thawn.

The Justicar casts the psychic power (if alive) or the squad casts it (if the J is dead). Since the Termie squad has never had a "Justicar" model (it was replaced with a model called "Justicar Thawn"), he cannot be either alive or dead. There is, therefore, no way for the Termie squad to cast a psychic power.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

 Iranna wrote:

Yes, the unit takes one test to activate their Force Weapons as per Brotherhood of Psykers (BoP). However, Thawn does not have the BoP rule and so, must activate his Force weapon, and indeed any other psychic power, by himself. Thus 2 rolls are made: 1 for the squad and 1 for Thawn.

The Justicar casts the psychic power (if alive) or the squad casts it (if the J is dead). Since the Termie squad has never had a "Justicar" model (it was replaced with a model called "Justicar Thawn"), he cannot be either alive or dead. There is, therefore, no way for the Termie squad to cast a psychic power.

How then, by your theory, do Paladins cast a psychic power? They have the BoP rule, and never have a Justicar.

Iranna.

RAW, Paladins cannot cast psychic powers. Bummer.

I suppose, to keep GK from being broken we should allow both Paladins and Thawn's squad to cast powers.

Or, you actually don't need a Justicar or KotF to cast. Its just if you have one any perils are resolved against him(along with any psyker targeting attacks/effects) if he's still alive.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Or, you actually don't need a Justicar or KotF to cast. Its just if you have one any perils are resolved against him(along with any psyker targeting attacks/effects) if he's still alive.

For the squad to be able to cast a psychic power, the Justicar/KotF must be either 1) alive, or 2) dead. If he never came to the battle (because he was upgraded to "Justicar Thawn," which isn't one of the two named models), then he cannot be either of those two states. There is no permission for a BoP unit to cast psychic powers without a living or dead Justicar/KotF.

So yes, a unit can cast a power without a Justicar/KotF, but only if that model is "dead." If he was never on the table, he can't be dead.

I agree that Thawn is for all intent and purpose a Justicar.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Or, you actually don't need a Justicar or KotF to cast. Its just if you have one any perils are resolved against him(along with any psyker targeting attacks/effects) if he's still alive.

For the squad to be able to cast a psychic power, the Justicar/KotF must be either 1) alive, or 2) dead. If he never came to the battle (because he was upgraded to "Justicar Thawn," which isn't one of the two named models), then he cannot be either of those two states. There is no permission for a BoP unit to cast psychic powers without a living or dead Justicar/KotF.

So yes, a unit can cast a power without a Justicar/KotF, but only if that model is "dead." If he was never on the table, he can't be dead.

False. Re-read the Brotherhood of Psykers in the rulebook pg. 34.

"The unit uses the leadership of its character, if there is one..."

All your assertions about being unable to cast psychic powers in this thread are wrong.

Iranna.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
RAW, Paladins cannot cast psychic powers. Bummer.

Actually, even strict RAW you're wrong here.
Strict RAW, Paladins cannot use BoP to determine what Leadership they should use for resolving psychic power, which is major difference from not being able to use Psychic powers.

Remember that the proper procedure is 1. Expend Warp Charge 2. Declare target 3. Take a Psychic Test. 4. Deny The Witch and 5. Resolve power.
There is nothing that stops Paladins from using psychic power RAW. Steps 1 and 2 work perfectly, strict RAW game just breaks at step 3 as there is no way to know what LD value to use for Psychic Test. Also note that "Game breaks" is different from "cannot use". ("Game breaks" is completely valid endpoint for strict RAW interpretation. Which is why it is seldom used.)

Also remember that strict RAW models without eyes cannot draw LOS.
"For one model to have line of sight to another, you must be able to trace a straight, unblocked line from its eyes to any part of the target's body (the head,torso,arms or legs)." (BRB, page 8)

Basically, anyone who argues view that GK terminator squad with Justicar Thawn cannot use Psychic powers (actually, they should argue that GK terminator squad cannot know what LD to use for resolving the Psychic test) while not arguing that models without eyes cannot draw LOS is basically being a hypocrite, using strict RAW interpretation in one case and not in other.

To make matters worse, they're not even using correct strict RAW interpretation, instead they're making up rules, changing "can't know what LD to use" to "Cannot use psychic powers" which are two completely different things.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Or, you actually don't need a Justicar or KotF to cast. Its just if you have one any perils are resolved against him(along with any psyker targeting attacks/effects) if he's still alive.

For the squad to be able to cast a psychic power, the Justicar/KotF must be either 1) alive, or 2) dead. If he never came to the battle (because he was upgraded to "Justicar Thawn," which isn't one of the two named models), then he cannot be either of those two states. There is no permission for a BoP unit to cast psychic powers without a living or dead Justicar/KotF.

So yes, a unit can cast a power without a Justicar/KotF, but only if that model is "dead." If he was never on the table, he can't be dead.

"Absent" is not, afaik, a synonim for "Dead", just for "not present".
So, the term "there is no justicar" could mean either "justicar is absent" (ergo, he is alive - somewhere else but alive) or "justicar is no dead".
Ta-dah, we know the Ld to take tests agains.

Another brief semantic juggle:

Iranna wrote:Please can you show me where it says he functions as a justicar for the squad? Just because he has Justicar in his name does not make him the squad's Justicar. Just as a Heavy flamer is not actually Heavy.

Let's compare the couple items "Flamer-Heavy Flamer" with the items "Justicar-Justicar Thawn", looking at the recurring word(s)
True, a heavy flamer is not heavy. Curiously enough, it is still a flamer.
In the same way, Justicar Thawn is still a Justicar. A particular, unique one, yet a Justicar. (As Yarrick is still a commissar, or, staying with GK, as Valeria or Karamazof are still Inquisitors)

 Iranna wrote:

Please can you show me where it says he functions as a justicar for the squad? Just because he has Justicar in his name does not make him the squad's Justicar. Just as a Heavy flamer is not actually Heavy.

You upgrade the Justicar to Anval Thawn. Nothing tells you that he's no longer a Justicar. It's strictly speaking not even another model. Think of it as buying wargear for the Justicar, except you also get extra rules.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:




You upgrade the Justicar to Anval Thawn. Nothing tells you that he's no longer a Justicar. It's strictly speaking not even another model. Think of it as buying wargear for the Justicar, except you also get extra rules.

So, correct me if I'm interpreting your post wrong here, what you're saying is that he is a Justicar, and at the same time, he is Justicar Thawn?

Nothing tells you that he's no longer a Justicar

So that part that says "Upgrade the Justicar to Anval Thawn" doesn't mean "Change the Justicar to Anval Thawn"?

Think of it as buying wargear for the Justicar, except you also get extra rules

Except it's nothing like buying wargear for the Justicar. If you buy the Justicar a Halberd, he is a Justicar with a Halberd.

If you upgrade him to Justicar Thawn, he's no longer a Justicar - he's Justicar Thawn.

That, coupled with the fact that he doesn't have the BoP special rule means two things:

1) The unit must use their own Ld for psychic tests.

2) Thawn may cast Hammerhand and Activate his Force Weapon independent of his squad, due to his lack of BoP and ML2.

Iranna.

Well I think I figured it out. I have to agree Thawn is a justicar (it's in his name lol). It says "Upgrade" not "Replace" if it said "Replace" then I would assume it to completely change the model and the rules surrounding the model (such as buying wargear with the "replace" wording). HOWEVER, the upgrade in question is turning the "squad leader type guy" into an IC which has its own rules regarding the brotherhood of psykers rule. According to it, a squad with this rule will always get 1 warp charge and cannot use the leadership of an independent character to cast psyker spells. This means that Thawn's psyker abilities act independently of the squad; so yes technically no justicar for rule purposes but logically yes there is a justicar......thus if you cast hammerhand using the squad (not Thawn) any perils would be resolved against the squad not Thawn. This means you technically have 3 warp charges in that squad (2 from Thawn and one from the squad itself). With the hammerhand spell you could technically get a +3 strength in CC (which I think is what GW was trying to do in the first place with that 75 point hit for him).

That being said there are two examples below to show why I believe the above to be right:

#1 (I am wrong and Thawn is the justicar for the purposes of rules): that means you cannot use his leadership to use psyker abilities but yet if you roll perils against the squad you target him. Clarification: you can't use him to make tests but if you peril the test it target him. Doesn't make sense to me.

#2 (I am right): Thawn would be an IC giving 2 warp charges as well as 1 warp charge from unit due to the BoP rule, any perils done by him target him, any perils done by the squad target the squad. Clarification: Thawn is independent of the unit he is in.

I hope that clears it up a bit for everyone

EDIT: I was going through the FAQ trying to find more proof, this is the only I could find

Q: If Justicar Thawn is dead at the end of a game involving Kill
Points, does he only give away one Kill Point regardless of how
many times he was killed? (p43)
A: Yes. It is also worth noting that if he does come back, he is
treated as a separate unit from that point on and as such both
he and his unit will each be worth a Kill Point.

This shows indirectly he is independent of the squad he is upgraded from. IE, if he is the justicar of the squad he wouldn't be worth a kill point himself he would be worth a point if him and his squad were wiped out.

Gwan123 wrote:
Well I think I figured it out. I have to agree Thawn is a justicar (it's in his name lol). It says "Upgrade" not "Replace" if it said "Replace" then I would assume it to completely change the model and the rules surrounding the model (such as buying wargear with the "replace" wording). HOWEVER, the upgrade in question is turning the "squad leader type guy" into an IC which has its own rules regarding the brotherhood of psykers rule. According to it, a squad cannot use the leadership of an independent character to cast psyker spells. Thawn is an IC so you would treat him as so. This means that Thawn's psyker abilities act independently of the squad......thus if you cast hammerhand using the squad (not Thawn) any perils would be resolved against the squad not Thawn. That being said this means you technically have 3 warp charges in that squad (2 from Thawn and one from the squad itself). With the hammerhand spell you could technically get a +3 strength in CC (which I think is what GW was trying to do in the first place). I hope that clears it up a bit for everyone

I have no idea what you are talking about here.

Thawn isn't an IC and never becomes one.

You contradict yourself by saying he is the squad's Justicar but doesn't abide by BoS.

The unit would generate 1 Warp Charge, and Thawn would generate two for himself. At no point is Warp Charge ever "pooled".

As a general rule, no psyker can cast the same power twice. eldrad and Ahriman are the only ones that come to mind who can.

The max you could get is +2 (+1 from the Squad's Hammerhand and +1 from Thawn's) without an IC being joined to the unit.

Iranna.

 Iranna wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:




You upgrade the Justicar to Anval Thawn. Nothing tells you that he's no longer a Justicar. It's strictly speaking not even another model. Think of it as buying wargear for the Justicar, except you also get extra rules.

So, correct me if I'm interpreting your post wrong here, what you're saying is that he is a Justicar, and at the same time, he is Justicar Thawn?

Correct.

 Iranna wrote:

Nothing tells you that he's no longer a Justicar

So that part that says "Upgrade the Justicar to Anval Thawn" doesn't mean "Change the Justicar to Anval Thawn"?

Correct. It means that you're making the Justicar more powerful by making him Anval Thawn. He doesn't cease being the Justicar.

 Iranna wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:




You upgrade the Justicar to Anval Thawn. Nothing tells you that he's no longer a Justicar. It's strictly speaking not even another model. Think of it as buying wargear for the Justicar, except you also get extra rules.

So, correct me if I'm interpreting your post wrong here, what you're saying is that he is a Justicar, and at the same time, he is Justicar Thawn?

Nothing tells you that he's no longer a Justicar

So that part that says "Upgrade the Justicar to Anval Thawn" doesn't mean "Change the Justicar to Anval Thawn"?

Think of it as buying wargear for the Justicar, except you also get extra rules

Except it's nothing like buying wargear for the Justicar. If you buy the Justicar a Halberd, he is a Justicar with a Halberd.

If you upgrade him to Justicar Thawn, he's no longer a Justicar - he's Justicar Thawn.

It's exactly the same. If you buy the Justicar a Halberd, he is indeed a Justicar with a Halberd. If you upgrade him to Justicar Thawn, he is now a Justicar following the rules for Anval Thawn.

 Iranna wrote:

That, coupled with the fact that he doesn't have the BoP special rule means two things:

1) The unit must use their own Ld for psychic tests.

2) Thawn may cast Hammerhand and Activate his Force Weapon independent of his squad, due to his lack of BoP and ML2.

The Justicar is still alive and so the unit uses his Leadership. Your second point, however, is correct. As he doesn't have BoP he won't have used his instance of Hammerhand and as such can cast it even if his squad has already cast it.

 Iranna wrote:

Gwan123 wrote:
Well I think I figured it out. I have to agree Thawn is a justicar (it's in his name lol). It says "Upgrade" not "Replace" if it said "Replace" then I would assume it to completely change the model and the rules surrounding the model (such as buying wargear with the "replace" wording). HOWEVER, the upgrade in question is turning the "squad leader type guy" into an IC which has its own rules regarding the brotherhood of psykers rule. According to it, a squad cannot use the leadership of an independent character to cast psyker spells. Thawn is an IC so you would treat him as so. This means that Thawn's psyker abilities act independently of the squad......thus if you cast hammerhand using the squad (not Thawn) any perils would be resolved against the squad not Thawn. That being said this means you technically have 3 warp charges in that squad (2 from Thawn and one from the squad itself). With the hammerhand spell you could technically get a +3 strength in CC (which I think is what GW was trying to do in the first place). I hope that clears it up a bit for everyone

I have no idea what you are talking about here.

Thawn isn't an IC and never becomes one.

You contradict yourself by saying he is the squad's Justicar but doesn't abide by BoS.

The unit would generate 1 Warp Charge, and Thawn would generate two for himself. At no point is Warp Charge ever "pooled".

As a general rule, no psyker can cast the same power twice. eldrad and Ahriman are the only ones that come to mind who can.

The max you could get is +2 (+1 from the Squad's Hammerhand and +1 from Thawn's) without an IC being joined to the unit.

Iranna.

I have no idea what you are talking about here.
Please be more specific

Thawn isn't an IC and never becomes one.
Your right, i reread the codex lol

You contradict yourself by saying he is the squad's Justicar but doesn't abide by BoS.
It was an assumption based on idea he was an IC and so BoP doesn't affect him

The unit would generate 1 Warp Charge, and Thawn would generate two for himself. At no point is Warp Charge ever "pooled".
Again assumption he was an IC he would have his own pool of warp charges seperate of the unit he is in. That actually changes the number of psyker abilities of that squad to 2 spells a turn since the BoP says the squad can cast 1 power a turn, not the squad is considered mastery level 1 (unless FAQ'd)

As a general rule, no psyker can cast the same power twice. eldrad and Ahriman are the only ones that come to mind who can.
It was just to use as an example, but yes your right

The max you could get is +2 (+1 from the Squad's Hammerhand and +1 from Thawn's) without an IC being joined to the unit.
Yes your right

With that I have to say yes he is a justicar and follows all rules with it

 Iranna wrote:

False. Re-read the Brotherhood of Psykers in the rulebook pg. 34.

"The unit uses the leadership of its character, if there is one..."

All your assertions about being unable to cast psychic powers in this thread are wrong.

Iranna.

I don't know what GK codex you're looking at, but my BoP rule is on p21. It does not use the word "character," as the codex was written before 6th ed, and there were no characters!
You may be referring to the BRB USR "Brotherhood of Psykers/Sorcerers," but there is no errata on the GK rule telling us to refer to the BRB. While the BRB rule and the GK rule have the same name, they are different rules and have different wording.

Also, saying "False" does not negate my argument, and is in fact quite rude. Please try to refute it with some salient points, rather than...whatever it is you're doing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kerrathyr wrote:

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Or, you actually don't need a Justicar or KotF to cast. Its just if you have one any perils are resolved against him(along with any psyker targeting attacks/effects) if he's still alive.

For the squad to be able to cast a psychic power, the Justicar/KotF must be either 1) alive, or 2) dead. If he never came to the battle (because he was upgraded to "Justicar Thawn," which isn't one of the two named models), then he cannot be either of those two states. There is no permission for a BoP unit to cast psychic powers without a living or dead Justicar/KotF.

So yes, a unit can cast a power without a Justicar/KotF, but only if that model is "dead." If he was never on the table, he can't be dead.

"Absent" is not, afaik, a synonim for "Dead", just for "not present".
So, the term "there is no justicar" could mean either "justicar is absent" (ergo, he is alive - somewhere else but alive) or "justicar is no dead".
Ta-dah, we know the Ld to take tests agains.

The BoP GK rule never uses the word "absent," nor does it say, "There is no Justicar." It says, "A GK unit uses the Ld of its Justicar or KotF (if he is alive), or the unit (if he is dead) for Psychic tests." So if there's no Justicar in the squad, then the Justicar must be dead in order for the squad to use its Ld. If there was never a Justicar in the squad, then he cannot be dead, and thus the squad does not have permission to use its Ld.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gwan123 wrote:

With that I have to say yes he is a justicar and follows all rules with it

If he is both a "Justicar" and a "Justicar Thawn," how do you know which stat line to use?

Let's look at a different codex for a similar situation. Eldar Dire Avengers: "One model in the squad may be upgraded to an Exarch." Does this mean that that model is both a "Dire Avenger" and an "Exarch"? This cannot be! A model can only be one thing. "Justicar Thawn" can only be that, and not a "Justicar."

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

It does not use the word "character," as the codex was written before 6th ed, and there were no characters!

Except that all the unique characters in the GK Codex are labeled as Infantry (Character). If characters don't exist in the Codex, why are they labeled as such?

If he is both a "Justicar" and a "Justicar Thawn," how do you know which stat line to use?

Let's look at a different codex for a similar situation. Eldar Dire Avengers: "One model in the squad may be upgraded to an Exarch." Does this mean that that model is both a "Dire Avenger" and an "Exarch"? This cannot be! A model can only be one thing. "Justicar Thawn" can only be that, and not a "Justicar."

RAW, nothing to support your assertion that a model can't be two things at once and the BRB provides three examples where that is false: Jump Infantry, Jump Monstrous Creature and Flying Monstrous creature. Nowhere in the rules does it say that an Exarch in a Dire Avenger squad ceases to be a Dire Avenger. By your argument then, we could upgrade the Dire Avenger to a Swooping Hawks Exarch. He HAS to remain a Dire Avenger. He was upgraded, not replaced. Better stat line, better wargear, but still a Dire Avenger. If the text said "replace" you would have an argument. As it is it says "upgrade". An upgraded Dire Avenger is still a Dire Avenger just like an upgraded Justicar is still a Justicar. You know which stat line to use in just the same way you know what stat line to use for any other upgrade. To follow your logic further, a Grey Knight Terminator squad could never use a psychic power anyway since they don't have a Justicar. They have a Terminator Justicar and according to you, that isn't a Justicar.

They did not list BoP under his special rules but they did under the unit that he must be chosen as part of and he is still the Justicar for that squad. Where you would run into problems RAW is when he "dies" and comes back and is no longer part of the squad; but he isn't dead either. The bigger dilemma is the Combat Squads rule since according to that rule, once that unit is split, it is treated as two separate squads leaving one without a Justicar.

helotaxi wrote:

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

It does not use the word "character," as the codex was written before 6th ed, and there were no characters!

Except that all the unique characters in the GK Codex are labeled as Infantry (Character). If characters don't exist in the Codex, why are they labeled as such?

"It" in my quote referring to the GK rule "Brotherhood of Psykers." Iranna made a claim that the rule used the word "character," and I pointed out that it did not. I did not, and will not, say that there are no characters in the GK codex. Please do not leave out parts of my post, and then claim I said something I did not say. Please do read my entire post and respond to what I argued, not what I did not argue.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
If he is both a "Justicar" and a "Justicar Thawn," how do you know which stat line to use?

Let's look at a different codex for a similar situation. Eldar Dire Avengers: "One model in the squad may be upgraded to an Exarch." Does this mean that that model is both a "Dire Avenger" and an "Exarch"? This cannot be! A model can only be one thing. "Justicar Thawn" can only be that, and not a "Justicar."

RAW, nothing to support your assertion that a model can't be two things at once and the BRB provides three examples where that is false: Jump Infantry, Jump Monstrous Creature and Flying Monstrous creature.

I was, and still am, referring to the stat lines and names of models. Nowhere did I claim that there's no such thing as an FMC. You are contorting my argument into a straw man, which is most unkind.

Nowhere in the rules does it say that an Exarch in a Dire Avenger squad ceases to be a Dire Avenger. By your argument then, we could upgrade the Dire Avenger to a Swooping Hawks Exarch. He HAS to remain a Dire Avenger. He was upgraded, not replaced. Better stat line, better wargear, but still a Dire Avenger. If the text said "replace" you would have an argument. As it is it says "upgrade". An upgraded Dire Avenger is still a Dire Avenger just like an upgraded Justicar is still a Justicar. You know which stat line to use in just the same way you know what stat line to use for any other upgrade.

If you upgrade a Dire Avenger to an Exarch, he stops using the Dire Avenger stat line and starts using the Exarch stat line. This also changes the name of the model from "Dire Avenger" to "Exarch," the two labels next to the two unique stat lines. So in this way, he does stop being a "Dire Avenger," and becomes an "Exarch." It's quite clearly labelled.
It may be problematic that the Dire Avengers, and many other Eldar squads, all have a model called an "Exarch." It it easy to tell them apart, though, because each of those models have different wargear. So it is not as confusing as it may appear to you.

To follow your logic further, a Grey Knight Terminator squad could never use a psychic power anyway since they don't have a Justicar. They have a Terminator Justicar and according to you, that isn't a Justicar. Where you would run into problems RAW is when he "dies" and comes back and is no longer part of the squad; but he isn't dead either. The bigger dilemma is the Combat Squads rule since according to that rule, once that unit is split, it is treated as two separate squads leaving one without a Justicar.

These are several good points. I suppose you're right, Terminators can never cast psychic powers because they don't have a "Justicar." But I think that, if the GK unit is combat squadded, and the Justicar is alive, then strictly according to the rule, the half without a Justicar would still use the Justicar's Ld. If he is dead, then they would use their own Ld.

It's all rather sloppily written, and strict RAW results in some re-tarded stuff.
HIWPI: "Terminator Justicar" functions as a "Justicar" for the BoP. "Justicar Thawn" is the squad's Justicar, and functions as the Justicar until he leaves the squad (through dying) (I don't think he's meant to give the unit an extra HH). Combat squadded GK that do not have a Justicar use the squad's Ld for Psychic.

"If he is both a "Justicar" and a "Justicar Thawn," how do you know which stat line to use."

You use his stats listed in the codex. Simple.