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The rules for Polymorphine state that when the Callidus Assassin comes in from reserve, the enemy unit that is targeted takes D6 S4 AP2 hits. Fluffwise it seems that these would be CC attacks, thus only invulnerable saves could be taken against them but the rule is not explicit; it merely says "hits" and as the Callidus is placed within 3" of the unit it could be argued that these could be saved by cover as a shooting attack. I initially lean towards them being CC attacks, but would like some other opinions.

IDK, fluff wise it's just as likely that she would execute by headshot, boobytrap or even poison.. But rules wise cover saves only help against getting shot from somewhere right?? It doesn't help against exploding vehicles does it??

 Spazamataz wrote:
IBut rules wise cover saves only help against getting shot from somewhere right?? It doesn't help against exploding vehicles does it??

Why wouldn't it? Cover saves are described in the Shooting section, just like both other save types. The close combat section then specifically forbids taking cover saves against CC wounds.

Spetulhu wrote:

 Spazamataz wrote:
IBut rules wise cover saves only help against getting shot from somewhere right?? It doesn't help against exploding vehicles does it??

Why wouldn't it? Cover saves are described in the Shooting section, just like both other save types. The close combat section then specifically forbids taking cover saves against CC wounds.

That's exactly my point!! cover saves are explained in relation to shooting attacks in the shooting section.. Whereas I'm hardly a rule lawyer but nobody at my local allows cover saves against exploding tank (doesn't mean much I know)
I'm not pulling a RAW.. Just what I see the RAI to be.. Feel free to throw in some RAW to put some light on the situation

Effects on passengers - explodes (pg80) says to resolve as shooting. Funny enough they neglect that clarification in Explodes (pg74) and Crash and Burn (pg81). Still, Explodes mentions hits as being caused by "flying debris" which sounds very much like what cover saves are used for. And ofc, Crash and Burn tells you that you may not take Armor Saves. Dangerous Terrain (pg90) once again tells you cover saves can't be taken (and also mentions both other types).

Thing is, once the saves have been described in the first section that happened to need it (shooting) the following parts of the book just refer you to those and tell you if something isn't allowed, or that something is allowed or sometimes both. If you happen to be able to claim cover then you can take a cover save, unless forbidden.

So there you have it.. Sounds like you don't get a cover save against callidus...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I really hate the 6th ed layout..

Well, a cover save would still be dependent on the unit being eligible for one. Seeing she comes in within 3'' of the enemy area terrain and special rules like KFF would likely be the only ways.

As I understand it, cover saves are only explicitly forbidden from CC wounds, not from non-shooting wounds. (With a few exceptions, but those are spelled out specifically under the relevant sections.) Assuming that's correct, until the wording is reworded, I would say that the unit targeted DOES get their cover save. I'd give it to them, at any rate.

Spetulhu wrote:
Well, a cover save would still be dependent on the unit being eligible for one. Seeing she comes in within 3'' of the enemy area terrain and special rules like KFF would likely be the only ways.

Also, defensive grenades, unless I misunderstand how they work.

You get a save, including cover saves, against wounds unless explicitly prohibited. The Callidus rules don't explicitly prohibit Cover Saves, so you may take them. Although obviously you will only be getting Cover Saves conferred by Area Terrain or Special Rules as there is no where to draw Line of Sight from.

Chrysis 527626 wrote:You get a save, including cover saves, against wounds unless explicitly prohibited. The Callidus rules don't explicitly prohibit Cover Saves, so you may take them. Although obviously you will only be getting Cover Saves conferred by Area Terrain or Special Rules as there is no where to draw Line of Sight from.

This is incorrect. The location of the Cover Saves rules only specifies how cover saves work against 'Shooting Attacks'; there is no broader application like you've implied above.

In this case the Callidus' 'Polymorphine' special rule is not a shooting attack.

Spetulhu wrote:
Well, a cover save would still be dependent on the unit being eligible for one. Seeing she comes in within 3'' of the enemy area terrain and special rules like KFF would likely be the only ways.

I'm also thinking of units that have the Stealth/Shrouded rules. I see the 2 potential RAW arguments as:
1) It doesn't say you get a cover save, and cover saves are mentioned only in the shooting section. Other cases (like pyschic powers or exploding vehicles, nice catch Spetulhu) let you know if cover can be taken by either being explicit about it or treating the attack as shooting, because the section on shooting allows you cover saves. Thus, no cover save for you.
2) It doesn't say you don't get a cover save, and cover is one of 3 types in the game that you can take. CC specifically disallows cover saves, so since Polymorphine does not restrict your save you can take it against said hits.

I'd be interested in knowing if there's any precedent in other army's FAQs or special rules.

Fluffwise, she infiltrates by disguising as someone then jumping out and saying "I'm here ". She has no ranged weapons other than the neural shredder (template), and the S4 A2 does match the profile for her CC attacks, especially back in 5th when the codex was written and power weapons were all AP2. However, her CC attacks also cause instant death due to the C'Tan Phase Sword, which the D6 S4 AP2 hits do not. Personally, based on the fluff and her weapons I'm inclined to say RAI is that they are counted as CC hits, but I'm not sure what the definite RAW ruling should be.

 Neorealist wrote:

Chrysis 527626 wrote:You get a save, including cover saves, against wounds unless explicitly prohibited. The Callidus rules don't explicitly prohibit Cover Saves, so you may take them. Although obviously you will only be getting Cover Saves conferred by Area Terrain or Special Rules as there is no where to draw Line of Sight from.

This is incorrect. The location of the Cover Saves rules only specifies how cover saves work against 'Shooting Attacks'; there is no broader application like you've implied above.

In this case the Callidus' 'Polymorphine' special rule is not a shooting attack.

So you cannot get a cover save against an exploding vehicle, nor against any of the other non shooting & non cc wound causing effects? And if so why does the brb state clearly that you cannot take cover saves in certain non shooting & non cc wound causing effects but not in others? Eg soul blaze vs exploding vehicle.

If cover works on vector strike, a CC attack in pretty much the same way, why wouldn't it work in this case?

 HoverBoy wrote:
If cover works on vector strike, a CC attack in pretty much the same way, why wouldn't it work in this case?

Truth. Unless Polymorphine explicitly prohibits cover saves, then the target should get a cover save.

 HoverBoy wrote:
If cover works on vector strike, a CC attack in pretty much the same way, why wouldn't it work in this case?

Cover saves are explicitly prohibited against vector strikes.

"No cover saves are
allowed against these hits.”

In fact, I believe cover saves may be taken against any attack that doesn't explicitly deny them (such as vector strikes, close combat attacks).

Oh wow they actually FAQd that, i should use FMC more often.

liturgies of blood wrote:So you cannot get a cover save against an exploding vehicle, nor against any of the other non shooting & non cc wound causing effects? And if so why does the brb state clearly that you cannot take cover saves in certain non shooting & non cc wound causing effects but not in others? Eg soul blaze vs exploding vehicle.

In some cases (such as with soul blaze) those hits may very well have been generated by a shooting attack, so the rules-writers felt they needed to be clear?

Apart from that, it's quite possible Games Workshop is not incredibly internally consistent with their various rulings. I suspect reading into the fact that they felt the need to clarify in certain scenarios should only apply to those scenarios rather than as an over-arching uniform policy.