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Hey dakka, so, alot of units have been hideously nerfed by the 6th ed "no assaulting from deep strike etc" rules, and as such, are never used. These rules are just another slap in the face to assault, pushing 40k ever more towards the scenario described in my sig.

I'm hoping I've come up with a way to re-introduce assaulting reserves in a manner that is fair to both shooty, and assaulty armies - rather than just favouring the former and gaking on the latter.

Assaults and Deep Strike, Outflanking, Infiltration etc

A unit that comes onto the board via such means can only fire snapshots in the turn it arrives, and may not assault. During your opponents following turn, only snapshots may be fired at the unit in question. Come the units next turn, it may act as normal

I try to address two issues here. The first is that deepstriking troops can shoot virtually without penalty, but flat out cannot assault. Thats not even remotely fair. This game is about both the choppy and the dakka, you can't just apply a minor nerf (counts as moving or whatever) to shooting and then an enormous nerf (cannot assault at all) to assault without fething up half the game.

However, I also think that deep striking assault is just a little too good. So by allowing only snapshots, the defending player has both the ability to react, to run away or sacrifice accuracy in order to hose down the deep strikers, but it denies them the ability to drop an enormous S10 AP1 triple pieplate on them and kill hundreds of points of dudes in one go.

An alternative take on the idea is;

When a unit deep strikes onto the board, every enermy unit within range and LoS can fire snapshots at them as a free action. If the deep strikers are within half range of an infantry unit's weapons, those weapons may fire normally, though counts as having moved. After resolving these shots, the deep striking unit may act as normal.

Thoughts? Criticisms? Enhancements?

Cheers

I like your thinking. I almost never deep strike with my Blood Angels (despite them being practically built for it) because every time I do I just get blown up by a tank or chem cannon. That isn't really that realistic if you think about it. If someone drops out of the sky, you won't be able to swing your tank around and accurately blast them.
Deathwing on the other hand are great to deep strike because they are super shooty.
I like your first idea. It makes deep striking and drop podding meltas a bit less powerful, and allows assault units to have a chance. I might use a version of this rule for my blood angel warlord traits if you don't mind.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/527506.page#5627940

You haven't been able to assault from deep strike since third edition, it's not a new '6th edition nerf'.

Your first rule is too powerful. Imagine if the whole or majority of a players army was deep striking, daemons for instance. The other's players whole army will only be able to snap shot (and because he can only snap shot that invalidates a lot of weapons from firing, blast weapons for example). He's not going to be able to cause nearly enough damage before the daemon player is able to assault him next turn.

You're essentially removing a player's ability to respond to deep striking.

(and because he can only snap shot that invalidates a lot of weapons from firing, blast weapons for example)

Thats the point, like cypke said, its far from realistic that you can blast these guys apart with impunity.

Imagine if the whole or majority of a players army was deep striking, daemons for instance

This is why I suggested the second rule. Deep strike around the place, and then eat free overwatch fire from every unit within sight against every unit of yours that lands nearby.

You haven't been able to assault from deep strike since third edition, it's not a new '6th edition nerf'.

Outflanking, Infiltrators, etc etc are included in my post.

You're essentially removing a player's ability to respond to deep striking.

Games workshop has essentially removed the utility of special deployment, so I think its justified that I look for a remedy.

 Dakkamite wrote:

Games workshop has essentially removed the utility of special deployment, so I think its justified that I look for a remedy.

Nay! Still fine and dandy for the shooty units!

I agree with you, it truly baffled my mind when I read it first time, despite the fact that both armies I play haven't any great infiltrator assault unit, or shooty unit for that matter, I actually really enjoyed the idea of infiltrators and the like popping up from nowhere and destroying an unit that way, it makes sense, they infiltrated behind the line, I shouldn't be able to react, least of all, not having an entire turn of full BS shooting. The current setup is basically some guy in the unit forgetting to turn his phone off, and his mum called just as he comes on the board, WH40k: sitcom edition?

I like the 1st suggestion, but I think outflankers should get to fire at full BS, but here are my suggestions:

Unit arriving via outflank(scout/infiltration/etc) can fire at full BS in the turn it arrives, and may not assault, however if it doesn't shoot in the turn it arrives, enemy units may only fire snapshot at the unit in your opponents' following turn.
- This is to make it feels more like the unit is still sneaking in from behind the enemy's line, so if they fire, they're treat as if in unhomebrew'd 6th ed, if they don't, they get the snapfire defensive bonus as proposed by the OP. The "narrative" way to look at it is that the enemy units are focusing on the enemies that are right in front of them, rather than having a 3rd eye on the back of their head, so if the infiltrating unit chooses not to fire, the enemy unit wouldn't have noticed until they actually got their face eaten/shot/chopped/mauled/etc.

Alternatively, adding more dice roll to the game: any unit wishing to fire at an unit arriving via outflank must do a ld test, if they pass, they get to fire as normal. Vehicle units automatically fail the test to represent... well, what cpyke said about tanks not being able to spin like a top.

I'm not sure about applying it all to coming on from reserve in general(WWP or not), or deepstrike however.

Two things to consider:
1) You can still run after deepstriking/infiltrating, that will usually give you enough space to mitigate blasts
2) The key to surviving as a deepstriker is to do it in volume...or have other targets that they MUST shoot at (vindicators, MCs, etc) to provide saturation.

I don't have a ton of time playing 40K, but it's been my experience that deepstrike/infiltrate assaults primarily fail because the assaulting player didn't really commit and only dropped 1 or 2 squads right in front of the enemy with zero support. I don't care if you have 2 devastator squads, a land raider, and 4 tactical squads shooting me...I'm going to torrent those terminators until they die, because I can afford to ignore the rest of your army for a turn and focus on what's right in front of my face and a much more lethal threat. And I will kill them, because you just engaged my 1850 pts with only 400 pts. People complain when the one dreadnought they dropped gets killed by 400 pts of meltas and lascannons...well, what did you honestly think would happen? You can't expect a single unit, or 2 units, to rout my entire army. In short, success with such an army starts in the list-building phase. You have to build a list that's designed for it...just like any other play-style. 40K has always favored the army that does something overwhelmingly simply due to the nature of probability. If you're going to deepstrike, give me so many targets that I can't possibly kill them all. Bring a flyer that can swoop in and take out my artillery. But don't expect that your measly attempt at "trying out deepstrike with unit X" will end in anything other than unit x getting blown off the board. You have to commit.

I've seen armies like deathwing work just fine, and to be honest your rules changes will make them unstoppable. Now those 4 squads of assault terminators will take 83% fewer hits and hit your line like a train. You'll be all but tabled turn 3. I think there should be some units with special rules to allow them to assault out of infiltrate/deepstrike, especially with the addition of overwatch to 6th Edition but a blanket rule would tip the scales too far in my opinion.

Um.. how about..

"After deepstriking a unit may choose to fire normally (as though it moved) or assault during the assault phase. It may not do both."

This lets those Blood Angels drop on the field and do their thing to your face with their chainswords, or those Crisis Suits try and melt your face off with their Fusion Blasters.

 Miri wrote:
Um.. how about..

"After deepstriking a unit may choose to fire normally (as though it moved) or assault during the assault phase. It may not do both."

This lets those Blood Angels drop on the field and do their thing to your face with their chainswords, or those Crisis Suits try and melt your face off with their Fusion Blasters.

Yeah lets give every marine heroic intervention, that won't break things.

Just bring back the 5th edition reserve rules and its problem solved.

@greyknight12

That would be the strategy that I would use (target saturation), but there are a few problems. First of all, you can only put half of your units in reserve. So in a 1500pt army, 750(ish) will be in reserve, and they won't have a chance to come out of reserve until turn 2 which means that your army that is on the board will be shot out. Turn 2, about 500pts will be coming in from reserve which will be easily shot up. And the next turn even less will be dropping in .

Deathwing has it much better because all of them in reserve can come in on the same turn if they want (and have twin linked weapons).

Blood angels on the other hand would drop in with a fragile jump unit and get shot to pieces before they get to do anything. So I usually deploy them in cover and move up as a unit unless I have a specific job for a specific unit. So an army that is built with a ton of deep strike special rules still isn't that great at deep strike.

I don't think that the OP's rules shouldn't be universal rules for all armies, but it would be pretty cool as a special rule I think.

Yet another solution in need of a problem. The situation as it is right now is perfectly fine, perhaps you should just revise your expectations so that the primary method of killing stuff in a scifi wargame is with guns, not swords?

Also, if you hate Manticore gunlines the last thing you want to do is cripple deep striking/outflanking anti-tank units by limiting them to snap shots when they arrive. Right now deep striking melta (for example, IG stormtroopers) is one of the best counters to artillery hiding out of LOS, and removing that threat just makes the hidden Manticore even better.

 Peregrine wrote:
Yet another solution in need of a problem. The situation as it is right now is perfectly fine, perhaps you should just revise your expectations so that the primary method of killing stuff in a scifi wargame is with guns, not swords?

Also, if you hate Manticore gunlines the last thing you want to do is cripple deep striking/outflanking anti-tank units by limiting them to snap shots when they arrive. Right now deep striking melta (for example, IG stormtroopers) is one of the best counters to artillery hiding out of LOS, and removing that threat just makes the hidden Manticore even better.

With all do respect Peregrine, but I firmly disagree with your first statement.

What about Tyranids? They're the best example by far of why shooting should not be the be all end all of Warhammer 40k. Just because Humans have evolved into making it so guns are better than swords doesn't mean that xenos have done the same. Honestly, even on that note there is plenty of close quarters combat in the modern day as well. It is absolutely brutal and traumatizing to those that have to go through it. There is a reason why everyone in the military is taught unarmed combat--it happens.

From a gameplay perspective, it's also more fun to have assaults. If I wanted to play a gunline I wouldn't even buy an army. I'd just use coins and bases if I really needed it, because why would I ever move anything. Granted, that's my personal opinion but I'm still a paying customer so why shouldn't mine matter just as much as anyone else.


Now to get back on topic...

I've always been in favor of making it so if you wanted to deep strike/outflank/infiltrate and assault to simply let the unit being assaulted fire to full effect. Small blasts roll to hit using normal BS, with a hit meaning 3 people are hit. Large blasts do the same but hit 5 people. This obviously would need to be refined, but is a start.

 rabid1903 wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
Yet another solution in need of a problem. The situation as it is right now is perfectly fine, perhaps you should just revise your expectations so that the primary method of killing stuff in a scifi wargame is with guns, not swords?

Also, if you hate Manticore gunlines the last thing you want to do is cripple deep striking/outflanking anti-tank units by limiting them to snap shots when they arrive. Right now deep striking melta (for example, IG stormtroopers) is one of the best counters to artillery hiding out of LOS, and removing that threat just makes the hidden Manticore even better.

With all do respect Peregrine, but I firmly disagree with your first statement.

What about Tyranids? They're the best example by far of why shooting should not be the be all end all of Warhammer 40k. Just because Humans have evolved into making it so guns are better than swords doesn't mean that xenos have done the same. Honestly, even on that note there is plenty of close quarters combat in the modern day as well. It is absolutely brutal and traumatizing to those that have to go through it. There is a reason why everyone in the military is taught unarmed combat--it happens.

From a gameplay perspective, it's also more fun to have assaults. If I wanted to play a gunline I wouldn't even buy an army. I'd just use coins and bases if I really needed it, because why would I ever move anything. Granted, that's my personal opinion but I'm still a paying customer so why shouldn't mine matter just as much as anyone else.


Now to get back on topic...

I've always been in favor of making it so if you wanted to deep strike/outflank/infiltrate and assault to simply let the unit being assaulted fire to full effect. Small blasts roll to hit using normal BS, with a hit meaning 3 people are hit. Large blasts do the same but hit 5 people. This obviously would need to be refined, but is a start.

Certainly has its flaws. Particularly the random charge means this could auto now the entire deep strike units down but there does need to be something. Perhaps you roll charge first if made full if failed snapshot?

No worries! Every time he says that my chaos daemons weep

Perhaps consider having units that assault from reserves be required to declare the charge as their move onto the table. Or possibly not shoot and only move half distance in their shooting phase.

Essentially they forgo moving and shooting, for the attempt to charge.

Also no charging via deepstrike unless otherwise stated.

Something like this allow charing units out of reserves but limits how far you can move. This makes things like the Webway portal or outflanking still viable for assaulty units, but takes away the ability for things like outflanking fleshounds from essentially charging 24" into the table (which in hammer and anvil means half of the table.).

I do think that this rule (with the addition of overwatch adn random charge distance) is kind of dumb, so say Genestealers come rushing up from the side of the table and get shot twice prior to getting to the opponent. Throw in intercept from armies like Tau and you might get shot 3+ times prior to assaulting.

I also agree with all those who say it is dumb to say that this should just be a shooty game. The game is most interesting when assault and shooting are more balanced.

Angron and the world eaters (and Khornates in general) seem to function just well with MAIMKILLBURN at axe swinging range.

 Peregrine wrote:
Yet another solution in need of a problem. The situation as it is right now is perfectly fine, perhaps you should just revise your expectations so that the primary method of killing stuff in a scifi wargame is with guns, not swords?

Nah man, that is your opinion and not mine, nor one shared by many other people on this site.

This is a game where people shoot at each other with one hand while swinging an enormous chainsaw from the other. Not a game where said chainsaw is their backup weapon.

Also, if you hate Manticore gunlines the last thing you want to do is cripple deep striking/outflanking anti-tank units by limiting them to snap shots when they arrive. Right now deep striking melta (for example, IG stormtroopers) is one of the best counters to artillery hiding out of LOS, and removing that threat just makes the hidden Manticore even better.

It's not suitable for 'deep strike shooting' to be a threat but 'deep strike assault' to be impossible.

I've always been in favor of making it so if you wanted to deep strike/outflank/infiltrate and assault to simply let the unit being assaulted fire to full effect. Small blasts roll to hit using normal BS, with a hit meaning 3 people are hit. Large blasts do the same but hit 5 people. This obviously would need to be refined, but is a start.

I dunno... heavy weapons squads are suppost to be *vulnerable* to assault, this would make them kinda the opposite.

I do think that this rule (with the addition of overwatch adn random charge distance) is kind of dumb, so say Genestealers come rushing up from the side of the table and get shot twice prior to getting to the opponent. Throw in intercept from armies like Tau and you might get shot 3+ times prior to assaulting.

I think random charge and overwatch are fine, though would prefer that a failed charge meant a partial move like it does in Fantasy.

Personally I think all that deep strike needs is protection from pie plates. It's certainly not realistic to let them rain down concentrated death on a unit thats just appeared on the battlefield like that. So what about this;

When a unit deep strikes onto the field, it can fire only snapshots and cannot assault until it's following turn. Such deployments are extremely rapid and difficult to respond to ~ during the opponents following turn, no vehicle can fire on the deep striking unit unless it is within it's forward 45 degree angle of fire, and infantry units may fire on the unit as per normal, but must pass an INT check to do so if the Deep Strikers are outside of half of their weapons range.

 Dakkamite wrote:
This is a game where people shoot at each other with one hand while swinging an enormous chainsaw from the other. Not a game where said chainsaw is their backup weapon.

Actually, for most armies in the game it IS a backup weapon. Tau, Necrons, SoB, IG, Eldar, DE and most marines all shoot first, shoot more, and maybe occasionally think about stabbing something if there's a good opportunity. The only armies that treat assault as a primary plan (outside of a few specialist units) are Tyranids, Demons, and Orks. And Demons shouldn't even exist as an army in 40k.

It's not suitable for 'deep strike shooting' to be a threat but 'deep strike assault' to be impossible.

Why not?

Anyway, I just thought it's amusing that you complain about Manticore gunlines while simultaneously arguing that one of the best counters to Manticore gunlines needs to be nerfed into uselessness.

Personally I think all that deep strike needs is protection from pie plates. It's certainly not realistic to let them rain down concentrated death on a unit thats just appeared on the battlefield like that.

Actually it's very realistic. When the deep striking unit hits the ground they're going to be focused on getting oriented properly, cutting free of their parachutes, etc, and not able to take effective cover yet. A barrage of artillery landing at that moment will be more effective than usual.

Also, your proposed rule doesn't even work since most vehicles are going to pivot to face a target in the movement phase anyway. Vindicators/Medusas/etc are going to wipe deep strikers off the table just as well as they do now. And of course interceptor Riptides (the biggest threat to successful deep strike) aren't vehicles at all and don't care.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Dakkamite wrote:
This is a game where people shoot at each other with one hand while swinging an enormous chainsaw from the other. Not a game where said chainsaw is their backup weapon.

Actually, for most armies in the game it IS a backup weapon. Tau, Necrons, SoB, IG, Eldar, DE and most marines all shoot first, shoot more, and maybe occasionally think about stabbing something if there's a good opportunity. The only armies that treat assault as a primary plan (outside of a few specialist units) are Tyranids, Demons, and Orks. And Demons shouldn't even exist as an army in 40k.

I disagree with you on this and here is why. If it is a back up weapon for all these armies (and it is for some) why create a number of units in each book where it is really the only thing that they can do. Essentially by Nerfing assault they invalidate a good number of units in each book. Now I'm not saying assault should trump shooting, what I am saying is that given the way the game is designed they should be much closer in usefulness than they are now. Also why should Daemons not exist? They are in the "fluff" of the game. Is it simply because they are an all assault army?

That said here is a list of units from each book where assault is their primary role (or at least primary way of dealing damage, as some of these may have other support roles as well)

SOB = Repentia, Penitent Engines, Battle Conclaves
Necrons = Scarabs, Wraiths, Spyders, Triarch Praetorians, Lychguard, Ctan, Necron Lord.
Eldar = Harlequins, Banshees, Striking Scorpions, Shining Spears, Avatar, Autarch, Several Pheonix lords.
Dark Eldar = Incubi, Wyches, Hecatrix Blood Brides, Grotesques, Beast Packs, Archons, Succubi, Mandrakes, Harlequins, Talos, Chronos, Helions (so 12 /23 generic choices, sounds like they intend for DE to use a bit of assault)
IG = Rough Riders,
Daemon = Nuff said (they only have like 3 Dedicated shooting units in the book)
CSM = Spawn, Daemon Prince, Chaos Lord, Warp Talons, Khorne Bezerkers, Possessed, Mauler Fiend, Mutilator (other units like Chaos Terminators could be considered 50-50)
Space Marines = Assault Marines, Assault Terminators, Chaplains, Vanguard Vets, Iron Clad Dread.
Blood Angels= Same as Space Marines except swap Iron Clad for Furiouso, add, Death Company , DC Dread, Sanguinary Guard.
Space Wolves= Wolf Lord, Fenrisian wolves, Thunder wolf cav, Blood Claws, Sky Claws, Swift Claws, Wolf Guard Battle Leader, lone Wolf.
Dark Angels = Deathwing Knights, (terminators are 50-50)
Grey Knights = Death Cult Assasin, Dread Knight, Crusaders, Brotherhood Champion.
Black Templars= Marshal, Emperors Champion, Rechlusiarch, Assault Terminators, Assault Marines, (given the nature of the book you could argue more here, but they can also shoot so we'll leave it at that)
Tyranids = Trygon, Rippers, Hormagaunts, Genestealers, Y-stealers, Tyranid Warriors, Tyranid Shrikes, Raveners, Tyranid Prime, Hive Tyrant
Orks= Mega Nobs, Warboss, Nobs. Deff Dread. Most other stuff shoots, but based on stats you could argue that were CC closer to shooting, they would be CC units (Boyz for example.)

My point is this saying, well in a Sci fi game shooting should be better, is silly when most armies in the game have units dedicated to CC. To me this means they should be much closer in usefulness than they are now. Now if they want to make it a primary shooting game and get rid of all the CC units that is a different story. But with CC as Nerfed as it is in some cases invalidates a lot of model choices in the game.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Dakkamite wrote:
This is a game where people shoot at each other with one hand while swinging an enormous chainsaw from the other. Not a game where said chainsaw is their backup weapon.

Actually, for most armies in the game it IS a backup weapon. Tau, Necrons, SoB, IG, Eldar, DE and most marines all shoot first, shoot more, and maybe occasionally think about stabbing something if there's a good opportunity. The only armies that treat assault as a primary plan (outside of a few specialist units) are Tyranids, Demons, and Orks. And Demons shouldn't even exist as an army in 40k.

I'm not gonna speak for armies I don't play. For DE, I disagree, it is indeed "shoot first, assault later", that part I don't disagree, but I think that is the result of assault side being ...well, not as great. I believe 5th ed WWP lists are mostly assault-based, so there's an example of an assault-based list for a primarily shooty army that got destroyed with this ed's bizarrely anti-assault rulings.

On Necrons, I agree, they're meant to be the silver tide that cover the battlefield with green laser(I assume gauss laser is green!), and their assault units seem to be built around the concept that the green laser are providing support as they move up.

What I'm saying is just that, it's fine and all if you enjoy standing still, skipping movement phase, playing gunline and whatnot, those armies you've listed as "primarily shooty" are that way not because the codex is written that way(most of the time), but mostly because of the anti-assault-ness of 6th ed. Hell, even orks are going shooty this ed, and you listed them as primarily assault. There are just too many anti-assault features in this edition, there isn't a need to literally make it so hostile to play as assault(well, except to push assault armies players to rebuild as shooty, aka more moneys!), shooty was already good in 5th for crying out loud.