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 mwnciboo wrote:
With the MG Issue with and Dug Infantry, it is a falsehood to say "Some of them are going to get through".

This is because you might spend 2-3 turns sitting there shooting just to kill a few Stands. What are the enemy doing during the these 2-3 turns? You can bet they are moving everything into position to punish you, while your Infantry act as Bait and lure them in.

The key to this is to under stand the mechanic....

So lets say you roll 18 MG dice against a Dug in-Veteran Infantry Unit require 6's to hit.

So 18 Dice, 1 in 6 to get a 6 so call it 3 x 6's rolled.

3+ Infantry save, so he rolls 3 dice, 2/3 chance so lets say he saves two.

Leaving you with 1 Die, you now need to roll a 6 to pass Firepower test to kill. e.g 1 in 6 chance to kill 1 stand.

So your 18 dice have given you precisely a 1 in 6 chance to kill one Stand in a Platoon of probably 7-9 Stands.......

So now you can see why Dug in Infantry is difficult to shift with only MG's.

i know this pain 54 dice to shoot 20 something firepowers=no kills, it was Falschimjager vs my 101st paras. next turn got mowed down.

But against gun teams they're excellent - assume they shot you and are vet concealed
18 shots, 6 hits, 2 save... 4 FP tests and with only squads of 4 or so that's a quick break test

If you want Cheap Russians, I would go for more points expensive Tanks, so although you get less of them and save yourself money.

This is why German Forces are great, small and expensive points wise equals a cheap starter set.

Two things are in favour of the MG on dug-in infantry tactic. With H+C, you won't be hitting much on the way in with main guns, so during the turn you've driven into range, you hose with MGs. Thereafter, as I imagine a previous poster was suggesting, you hit with main guns at full ROF and the additional MG dice for lulz. Against germans, this method can actually reduce a unit to half strength in a couple of turns, as most of their inf platoons only have 7 stands basic.
Plus, if the defender is maneuvering other units to counterattack your attacking tanks, they're not dug in anymore- MG them instead!
If you do assault, and lose, or even if you win, you could overrun the infantry, as you can fall back in any direction and through enemy infantry, I think, if you're a tank. This could be used to put you in a good position to counter reserves.

I think the MG tatcic still works even if you do not remove or clear stands; the point is, make sure you hit because if you get 5 hits (10 for QoQ Russians) then the target infantry is pinned, which is critical.

As others have posted, MG's in Russian Tank forces are not subject to H&C rule, so use them liberally.

With proper use of recon units using Eyes&Ears along with your tanks to assault/pin the target unit, this should work well enough. Just remember if you can position your tanks in a good position to use your main-guns to "priority-target" enemy gun-teams, your assault will be better off when launched.

If the infantry are just sitting there not shooting back they're not really going to care if they get pinned. Especially since its not as big a penalty as it was last edition. Pinned LMGs/HMGs can still put out a lot of shots in defensive fire.

 Grey Templar wrote:
If the infantry are just sitting there not shooting back they're not really going to care if they get pinned. Especially since its not as big a penalty as it was last edition. Pinned LMGs/HMGs can still put out a lot of shots in defensive fire.

But those LMG's/HMG's should do nothing to tanks when assaulting....we were talking about Russian Tanks being able to assault yes?

Pinning is imperative before you assault, especially if they have ATG's....if those aren't shot-out first due to prioritizing them with your main guns. Tanks don't care about MG's....never will, so it's a moot point.

Veteran Infantry e.g British Para's and American para's will bum your Tanks.

As will Pioneers, I always use a Pioneer or AT unit dug in around an Objective usually with HMG's and AT Guns.

If Russian Tanks assault they usually get mauled.

And German infantry will be crawling with Panzerfausts/knackers/shreks. If they're not the german player is doing it wrong.

My 1500 FJ list has 3 max FJ platoons, each with a Panzerfaust and a Panzershrek. Then there are the potentially attached Pak40s. And then there's the other FJ list where every stand has a Panzerfaust, but only 2 platoons in that one.

Or my new fav. Volkstrum. Every stand has a faust. MG or a Asualt rifle.

 ThirdUltra wrote:

Pinning is imperative before you assault,

It is but it will take 8 T34s to pin a dug in infantry platoon on average and even if they manage it they will then have a barrage of infantry AT weapons in defensive fire and a nasty counter attack to content with. Soviet tank assaults work against some armies (British rifles and Soviet Strelk) but simply bounce of others (most/some Germans, Paras, Finns) and Soviet tank armies tend to be very light on support arms which doesn't help.

MGs do prevent tankodesantniki from attacking so they have some use against Soviet tanks (and in EW they can even kill them).

 Palindrome wrote:

 ThirdUltra wrote:

Pinning is imperative before you assault,

It is but it will take 8 T34s to pin a dug in infantry platoon on average and even if they manage it they will then have a barrage of infantry AT weapons in defensive fire and a nasty counter attack to content with. Soviet tank assaults work against some armies (British rifles and Soviet Strelk) but simply bounce of others (most/some Germans, Paras, Finns) and Soviet tank armies tend to be very light on support arms which doesn't help.

MGs do prevent tankodesantniki from attacking so they have some use against Soviet tanks (and in EW they can even kill them).

I'm not following your math re: 8 T34's will roll 32MG shots. If the target is concealed and gone-to-ground veterans (hit on 6's) that is not quite enough to pin them on average. Any other combination of training and concealed/GTG you'll pin them on average with room to spare.

You need 30 MG shots to get an average of 5 hits.

The point was we were dealing in a vacuum of just Russian Tanks (not even considering what variants of tanks, maybe T-34's or KV's/IS-2's?) vs dug-in infantry; all of what has been posted above is correct, but you guys are adding counters in there knowing that you'll be facing tanks and only tanks.

We have not factored terrain or any other variables at all in such a match-up.

Additionally, we haven't even factored in what, if any, additional non-tank units the Russians would be bringing, be it artillery, recon, air-support, Spetznaz/Sappers.

And, lets' consider a wily player spacing the objectives a good ways apart, thus forcing your infantry to deploy on each one and then have your supporting forces act as fire-brigades, so when facing a 10-tank company plus possible supporting elements, all of the above mentioned extras may not be so viable.

Too many variables being added here, but we are discussing LW basics here in armored assaults, not a "topper" discussion where everyone can just throw-in their perfect counters.

It still rings true in armored lists to be able to assault or shift infantry off an objective, you need recon, pinning units, and/or smoke/blinding options.

And, in several tournies, I have seen plenty of paras and vet infantry being forced off an objective by the lowly Panzer-IV group using what I have mentioned above. Other factors being involved, it's not as rosy and set-in-stone as you may think.

Like i've said before, the variables (points, terrain, etc) all play into it, but the tactics should still the same.

The issue with shifting dug in infantry esp veteran infantry is multi-faceted in a game that will typically only give you 2.5 hrs/6-10 turns to achieve the objective as an attacking force.

One the time limit is huge, it forces the attacker to be aggressive and not always take the best/safest course of action. This is something you must remember as the attacker. Some games such as fighting withdrawl really only give the attacker 7 turns to win the game....another huge time crunch issue.

So when building you tank list realizing that you will be the attacker most of the time you must factor in how you will win quickly as you dont have all day to win.

Against infantry dug in like ticks usually in crappy terrain you can quickly begin to see where time is on their side and all they have to do is survive. Not to mention you cant forget the infantry most likely isnt alone, they will usually be supported by tanks/tank-destroyers/artillery/anti-tankguns/ infantry anti-tank teams.

So your typical assault will first have to deal with the many enemy threats the enemy has to destroy your tanks before you can even really focus on the poor bloody infantry sitting on the objective. So you may lose the game before you even get to them. Once you have eliminated or somehow mitigated the enemies ranged weapons you can then truly concentrate on their infantrymen.

Easiest solution is to blow them off the objective with firepower, which means you need alot of shots at 3+/4+ FP and preferably hitting alot so they will fail those 3+ saves. To do this you will need recon to lift their gone to ground status so you can hit with a decent chance.

If you dont have alot of shot then you need a large tank platoon 4+ tanks to go in and assault them off the objective...however will only work if the defender doesnt have alot of anti-tank shots at your assault as 2 bails/kills will stop your assault. Other option is to bring your own infantry in to assault...often very difficult as if gives the enemy a soft target to hit with their own light artillery/ infantry small arms....typically an easier kill while its advancing than your tanks.

My general take on playing tanks is bring as many tanks as you can close with the enemy as fast as you can to mitigate enemy air, first off win the anti-tank duel..in otherwords wipe out or mitigate all of their anti tank defenses then you have to reduce the defenses with a combination of recon/good FP attacks until you can run them over in the assault. If you fail in the opening rounds of the game to win the AT duel its game over right off. If you get to phase 2 you will be getting short on time so it will just depend on if you have enough time left to weaken them up for your assault.

An hey if your almost out of time risk the assault and hope they miss as its your only chance to win

Take my advice for what you will.

 ThirdUltra wrote:
The point was we were dealing in a vacuum of just Russian Tanks (not even considering what variants of tanks, maybe T-34's or KV's/IS-2's?) vs dug-in infantry; all of what has been posted above is correct, but you guys are adding counters in there knowing that you'll be facing tanks and only tanks.

This is FoW, of course there will be lots of tanks, I think that I own the only FoW army that I have actually seen with no tanks in it at all. Also the type of tank doesn't really matter, the more well armoured examples will come in smaller platoons so it evens out. You can make a very strong tank defence using nothing more than infantry teams (pioneers, panzerfausts et al) which are hard to dig out but which are also good, or at least decent, against enemy infantry.

There are ways of successfully assaulting infantry with tanks, of course there are, but they usually involve combined arms which is why tank hordes don't do well in late war.

The point was we were dealing in a vacuum of just Russian Tanks (not even considering what variants of tanks, maybe T-34's or KV's/IS-2's?) vs dug-in infantry; all of what has been posted above is correct, but you guys are adding counters in there knowing that you'll be facing tanks and only tanks.

We have not factored terrain or any other variables at all in such a match-up.

Additionally, we haven't even factored in what, if any, additional non-tank units the Russians would be bringing, be it artillery, recon, air-support, Spetznaz/Sappers.

And, lets' consider a wily player spacing the objectives a good ways apart, thus forcing your infantry to deploy on each one and then have your supporting forces act as fire-brigades, so when facing a 10-tank company plus possible supporting elements, all of the above mentioned extras may not be so viable.

Too many variables being added here, but we are discussing LW basics here in armored assaults, not a "topper" discussion where everyone can just throw-in their perfect counters.

It still rings true in armored lists to be able to assault or shift infantry off an objective, you need recon, pinning units, and/or smoke/blinding options.

And, in several tournies, I have seen plenty of paras and vet infantry being forced off an objective by the lowly Panzer-IV group using what I have mentioned above. Other factors being involved, it's not as rosy and set-in-stone as you may think.

Like i've said before, the variables (points, terrain, etc) all play into it, but the tactics should still the same.

I like this.

Cunning objective deployment is crucial. Add in the ability to split your tank fire against infantry and their supporting AT gun teams, then being free to assault either, and you have the first elements of a successful grab on the objective.
As I've mentioned earlier, you really oughtn't to be assaulting an enemy unit until it's dropped below half strength, and with anything less than 6 T-34's. Against Germans, you're looking at 3-4 stands left, half of which you will on average hit in assault going first. Boosh, you've pretty much won.

Two of things I fear as panzergrenadiers VS Soviet Tankovy are- being assault like that, or by IS-2's in general, as I won't be able to rely on a couple of lucky bails in addition to panzerfaust damage (due to top armour 2), and the enemy placing objectives so I can't mutually support each one without putting units out of position (I.E. not in contesting range).
PAK 40s reap a lot of damage but they can be isolated through clever objective placement and use of terrain.