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Hola Dakka!

I have a question regarding the timing of the Tau Puretide Engram chip and reserves.

The chip states that "At the start of the bearer's movement phase, choose one of the following special rules...."

Now, say I have a unit with the puretide chip off the board and in reserves. They come on the board on turn 2. Assuming this, am I allowed to utilize the Puretide chip on the turn the suit comes in?

I'm inclined to say no, as Blessing are also used at the start of the turn, and the FAQ states that a unit cannot cast Blessings or other start of turn psychic powers on the turn it comes in from reserves.

What say you, Dakka?

This is from the latest FAQ regarding psychic powers:

Q: Blessings are manifested ‘at the start of the Psyker’s Movement
phase’ – does this mean they happen simultaneously with Reserves
rolls, Outflanking rolls etc and if so which is resolved first? (p68)
A: They do occur simultaneously – as such, the player whose
turn it is decides in what order these things occur as per
page 9 of the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook.

I would say this applies to the Puretide chip as well.

 Malthor wrote:
This is from the latest FAQ regarding psychic powers:

Q: Blessings are manifested ‘at the start of the Psyker’s Movement
phase’ – does this mean they happen simultaneously with Reserves
rolls, Outflanking rolls etc and if so which is resolved first? (p68)
A: They do occur simultaneously – as such, the player whose
turn it is decides in what order these things occur as per
page 9 of the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook.

I would say this applies to the Puretide chip as well.

That does not override page 125 though

Unless otherwise stated a unit cannot charge or use any abilities special rules that must be used start of the turn, in the turn that it deepstrikes.

IMO, there is also a big difference between reserve rolls and reserve movement

You're correct, this FAQ does not directly pertain to the Puretide chip, but he wording seems to be the same as with blessings, so I'd assume they fall under the same ruling.

The Puretide chip does not have to be used at the start of the turn though, it's at the start of the movement phase of the model, which just happens to coincide with the start of the turn in this particular case.

As per the FAQ it seems to allow the use of abilities that are used at the beginning of the movement phase after arriving from reserves, but maybe I am using a too broad approach. I just don't see why two abilities that are worded identically should be treated different from each other.

Blessings =\= pure tide rules bonus.

Imagine it like this.

Blessings are kerosene
PEC is red bull (energy drink)

What you just said is the same as

Kerosene is fuel
Red bull is fuel
Kerosene is red bull.

PEC gives rules
Blessings give rules
PEC is blessing.

See how the argument's the same form, and the first doesn't make sense? Yeah, the second is the same so it's not relevant.

Reading on this, if both rules happen at the same time, then the active player would choose in what order they would happen as per page 9 of the BRB.

I don't see why PEN would be treated differently from a Blessing as they are worded the same and that they are both "Special Rules". A proper FAQ would be preferred, but looking at existing FAQs are the best way to divine what GW's ruling may be.

On the statement that this conflicts with page 125, if "Start of Movement phase" is the same as "Start of turn", it directly conflicts. However, if "Start of Movement phase" is not the same as "Start of Turn", there is no conflict.

Page 125 directly covers this. The ability MUST be used at the start of the movement phase (== start of turn) and so the ability CANNOT be used

But I thought must did not mean can only be...

rigeld2 wrote:
But I thought must did not mean can only be...

Must is as exclusive as if and only if.

Yeah, it' s pretty clear that the Chip cannot be used the turn the model arrives from Reserve.

I always thought that they purposefully separated abilities by the "start of turn" or "start of movement" designation, even though they happen at the same time, just for this sort of thing. Am I in the minority in thinking this? (I'm a newb, and don't know how to start a poll or I would on this one) Why else even write the rule to say start of movement phase instead of start of turn?

/on soapbox
If this is a case of a rule writer taking artistic license... well I'd like to digress into profanity for them, artistic profanity. If you are writing a rule make it as technically perfect as possible and save the artistic crap for the fluffy description. Freaking writers are there to do a job, not to become some special snowflake for the prettiness of their freaking rules.
/off soapbox

I have to agree that I think it can be used since it does not specify start of the turn. Use the same analogy as above, Start of turn == start of turn, start of movement is a separate phase and allowed by the faq of blessings saying they all happen at the same time. Start or turn would happen before movement begins which is why start of turn abilities would not work.

dunnhopen wrote:
I have to agree that I think it can be used since it does not specify start of the turn. Use the same analogy as above, Start of turn == start of turn, start of movement is a separate phase and allowed by the faq of blessings saying they all happen at the same time. Start or turn would happen before movement begins which is why start of turn abilities would not work.

Except Start of Turn happens at the same time as Start of the Movement Phase. Fantasy has sub-phases including a "Start of Turn" sub-phase, however, 40K does not have this distinction.

I would agree that there is a distinction between start of the turn and start of the movement phase.

dunnhopen wrote:
I have to agree that I think it can be used since it does not specify start of the turn. Use the same analogy as above, Start of turn == start of turn, start of movement is a separate phase and allowed by the faq of blessings saying they all happen at the same time. Start or turn would happen before movement begins which is why start of turn abilities would not work.

I disagree. Assuming the chip is a blessing is house ruling. Nowhere in the rules does it say its a blessing. Therefore it isnt.
If start of the movement phase isnt start of the turn when does the turn start? The rules say your turn is divided in 3 phases with the movement phase being the first (BRB P.9). Therefore start of movement=start of turn. There is no "start of turn" phase ... therefore you cant create one and insist the start of the movement phase isnt the first thing to occur in your turn.

King Pyrrhus wrote:
I would agree that there is a distinction between start of the turn and start of the movement phase.

Then find a rule, please

Ther eis no distinction in 40k between the start of the turn and the start of the movement phase

It really does not matter in this case. If a unit with a pure tide chip is in reserve it can not use the chip as it is not on the board yet. It must move first, so can not use the puretide chip as coming on the board counts as moving. Same issue the Trevigon has with spawning.

I concur with with the vampire one. I really do wish it wasn't the case as there are many start of the movement phase abilities I would love to exploit. This threads one in particular, as I do like the idea of being able to deep strike and use tank or monster hunter on the very same turn.

Sadly this isn't the case.

The movement phase is the first phase of a persons turn. There is no other phase that comes before it, not even an 'announce it is the beginning of your turn' phase. The turn summery clearly indicates this. For you to be able to do something before the movement phase, there would need to be a turn phase in which to do it, as the turns are divided up into phases for a reason. Therefore the start of the turn and the start of the movement phase is the very same thing for all rule related purposes as this is the first phase.

FAQ's have gone forth to cement it by allowing players to use 'start of movement' based powers and abilities even before they roll for reserves, which clearly use the start of turn terminology.

RAW is correct that you cannot use it until the next turn. Pyker powers are ok, but artificial psyker powers are not. They should have thought of this before releasing the book since this issue has been covered in a FAQ, but failed to think we would rule the same way for non psyker powers that would achieve the exact same means (blessings)

So SM blessings in, Tau blessings out.

(TBH will probably be in their next FAQ)

I do feel the need to point something out about the FAQ that is always pulled out when 'start of the movement phase/start of the turn' is brought up: It is not about moving a psyker in from reserves and then using a 'start of the movement phase' ability with that same psyker. It is a question relating to what comes first, 'start of the turn' rules such as reserve or 'start of the movement phase' abilities such as psychic powers, using these two as clear examples. This is a very understandable question, as both terms are used interchangeably throughout multiple codex's and the basic rule book itself that it would obviously lead to confusion as to what comes first, the beginning of the turn or the beginning o the movement phase.

The answer is; the player decides which one he wants to do first as they happen simultaneously.

Now I do understand where the confusion can occur as it does talk about reserves and start of the movement phase abilities in the same paragraph. This could easily lead one to think it is overturning the exception on page 125, but a closer reading would show this is not the case. It is simply clarifying the confusion that occurs as two interchangeable terms are being used, turn and movement phase, as to which one is meant to be resolved first. Nothing withing the FAQ states that the psyker using the ability is coming in from reserves, after all, so that is something people are just assuming without any solid backing.

After all this it point to page 9 for a reason, check out what is on page 9.

This is the turn summery page which shows three things. First, the turn is broken into three sections, no more or less. Second, the movement phase is the first section and hence 'the start of the turn' occurs within this phase. Third, in situations where simultaneous actions take place, the player who's turn it is decides the order. Everything that has been put forth in that FAQ screams that it was a question about timing, not intended to be away to overturn what is a common, seriously crippling and very clear exception to when certain abilities, powers and rules come into play.

So, in short: Even blessings can not be used on the same turn the psyker comes in from reserve.

Personally: I would really love for the term 'start of the turn' to come before the movement phase. If it was to do so then the exception on page 125 would rarely occur as I can't think of a single rule that states 'start of the turn,' outside of reserves, off the top of my head. Every rule, ability and psychic power that is being denied under exception page 125 is worded by the term 'start of the movement phase.' If the start of the movement phase is not the start of the turn then we could freely use things like the Puretide chip as there would be nothing preventing us from doing so.

Agreed fully, Jinx. I hate trying to explain that to people, no one ever seems to get it.

This is crystal clear. the Puretide Chip and the Ethereal's Invocation of Elements both must be declared at the start of the movement phase, which is the start of the turn and therefore cannot be utilized by them on a turn they arrive from Reserve.

Its the same as all other abilities and special rules that get used at the start of the turn. Just get over it and don't put those units into Reserve if you care about it.

Interesting point Jinx. Seems my local meta has been playing this one wrong the whole time. Everyone seemed to miss that the FAQ does not specify whether or not the psyker is arriving from reserve only that they may cast a blessing in the order they choose (I.E. after a unit arrives from reserve to gain benefit.)