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Oh and Sindri, gotta love Sindri.

Nah, the cartoonish DoW villains are not what I had in mind.

Sindri, Kyras, and Eliphas are awesome, you get out!

 Kain wrote:
you get out!

?

Um ... no.

 Manchu wrote:

 Kain wrote:
you get out!

?

Um ... no.

Yes! You are henceforth exiled from your own thread! Die with shame traitor! /joking.

I think Carron is the most evil chaos lord. He is so evil that the mere sight of a metal rectangular prism that is hollow sends him into an asthmatic fury!

 Void__Dragon wrote:
What exactly did the traitor Legions lose?

Huh.

Trying to avoid a long, protracted Fluff War with you, I'll say "Everything."

Because really, you'll be hard pressed to say that they won "anything".

They were tricked, duped and used and as a consequence they sold out the entire Human race.

 Manchu wrote:
V__D, I didn't recognize you with an Angron avatar -- until I read what you wrote about 1ksons. Then I was like, "hey that's a familiar noise."

I like more factions than just the Thousand Sons, lol.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Alpharius wrote:
Huh.

Trying to avoid a long, protracted Fluff War with you, I'll say "Everything."

Because really, you'll be hard pressed to say that they won "anything".

They were tricked, duped and used and as a consequence they sold out the entire Human race.

What did Angron lose, for example?

He is now free to do exactly what he always wanted to do.

Oh I know, but most of your posts that I've read have to do with them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
He is now free to do exactly what he always wanted to do.

Which could also arguably be said for a dimwitted dog let of its leash into highway traffic.

For a while most of my posts were indeed Thousand Sons centric, though I usually don't make topics about them. They, and the Space Wolves, are just a popular topic here, it seems.

Necrons, my original favorite faction, tend to have less threads made concerning them that interest me, for whatever reason.

As for Angron, he is a simple man, with simple tastes.

How much Magnus lost depends on what you believe concerning the Emperor making him a battery. Personally, I don't believe the Emperor intended to chain Magnus there as a slave (At least not from the start, maybe he would have after blowing the Webway up).

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Personally, I don't believe the Emperor intended to chain Magnus there as a slave (At least not from the start [...])

I kind of agree. I don't think the Emperor intended it to be slavery. But I do think Magnus was engineered for this purpose.

And I do not think Angron was designed to be so ... simple. IMO, the Emperor was sure Angron could be largely uplifted/recovered if guided with a firm hand. The Nails, hmm, strike me as Angron's own kind of crutch.

Angron isn't free. He is leashed to the Warp and is driven by his unleashed fury.

Being banished for X amount of years by the Grey Knights probably isn't his idea of fun.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

What did Angron lose, for example?

He is now free to do exactly what he always wanted to do.

If he ever wanted anything other than mindless slaughter in the name of a Warp entity then yes he lost. Considering his anguish over the loss of his brothers on De'shea and comments in 'Betrayer' I'd suggest that he did in fact lose as well. He's chained like a beast in a way he never was under the Emperor and lost every part of him that wasn't given to him by the Nails. Now he doesn't have a chance of a treatment or of a way of changing his fate (Chaos is surprisingly rigid).

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:

What did Angron lose, for example?

He is now free to do exactly what he always wanted to do.

If he ever wanted anything other than mindless slaughter in the name of a Warp entity then yes he lost. Considering his anguish over the loss of his brothers on De'shea and comments in 'Betrayer' I'd suggest that he did in fact lose as well. He's chained like a beast in a way he never was under the Emperor and lost every part of him that wasn't given to him by the Nails. Now he doesn't have a chance of a treatment or of a way of changing his fate (Chaos is surprisingly rigid).

It is, isn't it?

Well said!

I guess the way that CSM could be adapted to be more like WoC would be to show that they still perform the same recruitment practices of the standard SM.

Perhaps a tangible visual difference would help. More like the Dark Vengeance chosen and less like regular Marines with spikes. Organic, mutated and with more interesting weapons. The border between Daemon and Mortal.

Remember, that just as Chaos bleeds into realspace and creates mutations so too does cosmos bleed into the Warp and create what you might call "patterns." Khorne, for example, is the facet of the Warp catalyzed by the violence and anger of material beings.

Theres only so many failed Black Crusades I can hear about before I stop seeing Chaos as a legit threat.

 Medium of Death wrote:
Perhaps a tangible visual difference would help. More like the Dark Vengeance chosen and less like regular Marines with spikes.

Quite a few 40k armies are in need of some new troop choice models and CSM are definitely one of them. Not to say the current CSM are terrible, just that they could obviously be so much better.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dakkamite wrote:
Theres only so many failed Black Crusades I can hear about before I stop seeing Chaos as a legit threat.

The trick is, is the magic number 12, 13, or 14?

best codex ever on the CSM

One of the things that I liked about the Warriors of Chaos comes from Warhammer Quest (probably showing my age here), when it talked about Chaos Warriors being outcasts and renegades from all walks of life and from every social strata. These were people who were bored nobles, mighty warriors, people facing death on the battlefield, people wracked by disease, those who thirsted for knowledge and any number of other motivations, who called out to the Dark Powers (maybe even in a moment of weakness). This meant that each of them possessed a unique personality.
In the newer fluff it jut seems like the logical end to living in a harsh and unforgiving land - only the strongest survive and they will do what it takes to survive.

The Chaos Marines by comparison are largely homogeneous, depending on their original Legion. They don't have the same individuality. Any tortured souls who are having second thoughts about turning their backs on their oaths are likely dead after 10,000 years - killed off in battle or by their erstwhile brothers. The writing for more recent Traitors is equally bland, for example The Sons of Malice. Over one incident they renounce their vows to the IoM and throw their lot in with the Dark Powers without nary a second thought.

The only Chaos Marines that to me have any sort of actual character are those who have recently turned their backs on the IoM and are undergoing their transformation, or the Fallen simply because they are a disparate group that have no central leader and since Caliban was destroyed they have done everything from see the error of their ways and try to live life unseen, become mercenaries, or joined the ranks of the Traitors.

 Manchu wrote:

 Vladsimpaler wrote:
Honestly I think the inherent problem lies in making CSM the lead at all. I believe that CSM should always be the antagonist and never have internal dialogue. Basically you should never know what they are thinking/feeling.

Kind of. The issue is, CSM should not be presented as protagonists in the usual hero-story way. That is the mistake, IMO at least, BL authors have made (again, CL Werner aside). For a great example from bona fide literature, check out Blood Meridian by Cormac McCarthy. Judge Holden could be a CSM. Or, speaking of Cormac McCarthy, BL authors should also look to his Anton Chigurh.

Yep, I have read Blood Meridian. Really good book and got me into westerns for a while. Of course, I seriously doubt that any BL author could even come close to the fantastic characters that McCarthy creates.

Chaos Marines should not be anti-heroes. Renegade Marines, sure. But not Chaos Marines. They are tragic in the sense that you know that they betrayed everything they know because they wanted power and now they're enslaved to it.

Also

 Manchu wrote:

 Medium of Death wrote:
Perhaps a tangible visual difference would help. More like the Dark Vengeance chosen and less like regular Marines with spikes.

Quite a few 40k armies are in need of some new troop choice models and CSM are definitely one of them. Not to say the current CSM are terrible, just that they could obviously be so much better.

One of the most disappointing things for me was that I was pretty hyped for Chaos when I saw Dark Vengeance. When I read the Chaos book and saw the models they released along with the book, I knew that once again they screwed everything up.

 Dakkamite wrote:
Theres only so many failed Black Crusades I can hear about before I stop seeing Chaos as a legit threat.

Which one's failed? Usually most of them were about a specific goal (Which usually was accomplished), along with stirring up problems for the Imperium.

The only real one that was actually trying to Conquer was the 13th, and as a result of it they slagged 50% of Cadia, took over the planet, took over the airspace above the planet, with the Imperium warily being forced to defend the rest of the sector.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Dakkamite wrote:
Theres only so many failed Black Crusades I can hear about before I stop seeing Chaos as a legit threat.

Which one's failed? Usually most of them were about a specific goal (Which usually was accomplished), along with stirring up problems for the Imperium.

The only real one that was actually trying to Conquer was the 13th, and as a result of it they slagged 50% of Cadia, took over the planet, took over the airspace above the planet, with the Imperium warily being forced to defend the rest of the sector.

Every time I hear about the 13th Black Crusade the claims by Chaos are ever more inflated.

As far as I know, they didn't "slag" any of Cadia. They captured a large portion of it, with some desperate Guard strongholds and Kasrs still holding out, but not in control of the whole planet. Space, however, is firmly in control of the Imperium.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Dakkamite wrote:
Theres only so many failed Black Crusades I can hear about before I stop seeing Chaos as a legit threat.

Which one's failed? Usually most of them were about a specific goal (Which usually was accomplished), along with stirring up problems for the Imperium.

The only real one that was actually trying to Conquer was the 13th, and as a result of it they slagged 50% of Cadia, took over the planet, took over the airspace above the planet, with the Imperium warily being forced to defend the rest of the sector.

Every time I hear about the 13th Black Crusade the claims by Chaos are ever more inflated.

As far as I know, they didn't "slag" any of Cadia. They captured a large portion of it, with some desperate Guard strongholds and Kasrs still holding out, but not in control of the whole planet. Space, however, is firmly in control of the Imperium.

Which is an inflated claim by the Imperium, the Sector was in control of the Imperium, the space above Cadia was controlled by chaos.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Dakkamite wrote:
Theres only so many failed Black Crusades I can hear about before I stop seeing Chaos as a legit threat.

Which one's failed? Usually most of them were about a specific goal (Which usually was accomplished), along with stirring up problems for the Imperium.

The only real one that was actually trying to Conquer was the 13th, and as a result of it they slagged 50% of Cadia, took over the planet, took over the airspace above the planet, with the Imperium warily being forced to defend the rest of the sector.

Every time I hear about the 13th Black Crusade the claims by Chaos are ever more inflated.

As far as I know, they didn't "slag" any of Cadia. They captured a large portion of it, with some desperate Guard strongholds and Kasrs still holding out, but not in control of the whole planet. Space, however, is firmly in control of the Imperium.

Which is an inflated claim by the Imperium, the Sector was in control of the Imperium, the space above Cadia was controlled by chaos.

Which is an inflated claim by Chaos, the Sector was in control of the Imperium, the space above Cadia was controlled also by the Imperium.

See? "it is an inflated claim" works both ways.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Dakkamite wrote:
Theres only so many failed Black Crusades I can hear about before I stop seeing Chaos as a legit threat.

Which one's failed? Usually most of them were about a specific goal (Which usually was accomplished), along with stirring up problems for the Imperium.

The only real one that was actually trying to Conquer was the 13th, and as a result of it they slagged 50% of Cadia, took over the planet, took over the airspace above the planet, with the Imperium warily being forced to defend the rest of the sector.

Every time I hear about the 13th Black Crusade the claims by Chaos are ever more inflated.

As far as I know, they didn't "slag" any of Cadia. They captured a large portion of it, with some desperate Guard strongholds and Kasrs still holding out, but not in control of the whole planet. Space, however, is firmly in control of the Imperium.

Which is an inflated claim by the Imperium, the Sector was in control of the Imperium, the space above Cadia was controlled by chaos.

Which is an inflated claim by Chaos, the Sector was in control of the Imperium, the space above Cadia was controlled also by the Imperium.

See? "it is an inflated claim" works both ways.

And of course, since it was brought up.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/392010.page

Per usual.

No both to the topic name and to the OP's question. The fallen saviours f the csm are way cooler than the barbarians of the WoC becuase they have more depth and actually make sense.
Its not CSM that has been moving away from WoC its WoC who has been moving away from CSM when they stopped beign humans who wandered north and gave themselves to chaos and began being tribes living and dying in the name of chaos. Merging nosca with WoC is about the biggest mistake in warhammer fluff. Meanwhile CSM have in many ways become deeper and more interesting.

Space Marines merely adopted Chaos. The Warriors were born in it, molded by it.

Personally I think Warriors are cooler than CSM, possibly because I enjoy fantasy settings more than sci-fi, but also because they were born in chaos - they are not typically riddled with the 'angst' CSM suffer. No betrayal, just savage, honourable (in a warrior sense) barbarians that never question or doubt their beliefs, because their gods are undeniably real.

I love CSM too, very much. The bitter betrayers/betrayed, and the unrepentant pirates/reavers. Both setting are awesome, but I feel it's somewhat let down by the average level of both BL and codex authors (with notable exceptions, of course).

It probably also helps that Warriors have a real life comparison that GW can just exaggerate, where-as CSM are unique.

I think my favorite interpretation of a Chaos Space Marine warband has been in Chaos Child by Ian Watson, there isn't much on them but their sheer difference from your regular Space Marine is evident. A good job of their corruption, both in mind and body, is provided. I think Ben Counter also down a fantastic job in Daemonworld, where the end revelation had by a character that Chaos is an empty chalice to drink from was also well executed. Even in Storm of Iron the the Chaos characters seem to be better presented than many of the modern day baddies.

In Storm of Iron their sense of might and capability came across, how all are striving for their own goals, how they use their strengths to dominate others around them, how they use fear as a weapon and form of control.

These to me are true Chaos Marines.

Chaos characters nowadays are just your generic bad guy and they have progressively been watered down to what they are now over various novels.

I have enjoyed both ADBs and Ms Cawkwells depiction of Mr Blackheart for example, but the unhinged, tyrannical madman doesn't seem to be there. Well at least not the sense of that I get from this story, even though it is only short.

http://www.blacklibrary.com/Downloads/Product/PDF//m/maelstrom.pdf

ADB has come close with his Night Lords trilogy I think, but even then I feel that they are a little to soft.

I think BL could do with a mature section for some of its books at times, so that they get really into the nitty gritty of what Chaos really is and how ugly it really can be.

Are all Chaos Space Marines traitors? I can imagine that the vast majority would be, but Chapters split and new warbands are formed and over time there aren't any of the original members left and all you are left with is a band of warriors fighting for all they know. Which I guess would bring us full circle to the WoC.

A band of warriors originating from the Imperium. The fluff doesn't really cater for CSM to recruit in the same way as SM. It's not an unlikely event, it's just never mentioned... Fabius Bile being the possible exception...

I'm sure the Word Bearers would recruit new Chaos marines like their Loyalist counterparts.