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 Biaz wrote:
Space Marines merely adopted Chaos. The Warriors were born in it, molded by it.

Personally I think Warriors are cooler than CSM, possibly because I enjoy fantasy settings more than sci-fi, but also because they were born in chaos - they are not typically riddled with the 'angst' CSM suffer. No betrayal, just savage, honourable (in a warrior sense) barbarians that never question or doubt their beliefs, because their gods are undeniably real.

I love CSM too, very much. The bitter betrayers/betrayed, and the unrepentant pirates/reavers. Both setting are awesome, but I feel it's somewhat let down by the average level of both BL and codex authors (with notable exceptions, of course).

It probably also helps that Warriors have a real life comparison that GW can just exaggerate, where-as CSM are unique.

I also prefer fantasy which is why I hate that they took the old well written norsca and merged it with chaos.

 Alpharius wrote:


The problem with CSM's for me is that there is NO WAY that they are not, in the end, completely 'in the wrong', 100%.

Especially Alpha Legion right?

Anyway, OT I don't know who's cooler because I don't know much about WoC but I think CSM are more interesting. The Imperium has a lot of problems and is something that needs to be challenged even if thoses challenges end up being far worse than anything the Imperium embodies. Though I agree with past concerns about humanizing the bad guys.

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:


The problem with CSM's for me is that there is NO WAY that they are not, in the end, completely 'in the wrong', 100%.

Especially Alpha Legion right?
.

Of course!

They suffered from "Too Clever By Half" syndrome.

At least, as far as we know right now...

Trusting xenos trickery at face value doesn't seem particularly clever IMHO.

Can't agree. Throne of Lies ends with a group cry. ADB is a prime offender in this regard.

And what's wrong with that, why can't the forces of Chaos feal sadness, if they can feel lust, anger, pride why does sadness and melancholy not have a place.

WoC are hundreds of times cooler.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Trusting xenos trickery at face value doesn't seem particularly clever IMHO.

If you're up to date on the HH series you'll have seen that they don't trust Xenos trickery at face value.

Unless you consider spacing one of them out an airlock as 'trusting'!

Anyway, back on topic...

...

I want to see the cabal either sacrificed to chaos in a pointlessly gruesome and cruel way as possible or fed to the golden throne so that the Emp never grows thirsty.

The diffrence is CSM willingly sought chaos.
CSM are cooler because in the end it's not about religion to them it's about power. They have a much greater understanding of chaos than WoC have. WoC are just scared mortals cowering before their gods, woshipping what they were taught to worship.

CSM are champions of light who fought monsters for to long and stared to long into the abyss. Who for whatever reasons in the end sought power and the one real way to hold any power in the universe.
WoC are barbarians who happen to be born into a culture worshipping ruthless deities. CSM are super villains.
Nietzsche would have dissaproved vastly of WoC, but he'd have liked CSM. Will to power and nothing else, enforcing their will upon the universe, unhindered by what other have taught them.

CSM are intelligent propably more so than their enemies. WoC are less so than their enemies.

The threat of chaos is not first and foremost a military one, it's a cancer eating away at humanity. The best and brightest is drawn towards it, and instead of contributing to mankinds survival help tear down what they should've been protecting.

You also make the mistake of thinking that the legions that turned to chaos actually gave a damn about humanity.

I agree, Warriors of Chaos are definitely more cool than Chaos Marines, in terms of how they are portrayed narratively.

Chaos marines always came across me as morally, mentally, and emotionally weak compared to loyalist Marines.

 Biaz wrote:
Space Marines merely adopted Chaos. The Warriors were born in it, molded by it.

Exalted

 Alpharius wrote:

Manchu hits it out of the park again!

The problem with CSM's for me is that there is NO WAY that they are not, in the end, completely 'in the wrong', 100%.

See, this is my problem too. Us being outside of everything makes it hard for me to sympathize with them. We know what the Big E wants, while he goes about it oddly at times, his end goal is noble. Then seeing falls like the Word Bearers, it just feels silly from the outside.

 DA's Forever wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:

Manchu hits it out of the park again!

The problem with CSM's for me is that there is NO WAY that they are not, in the end, completely 'in the wrong', 100%.

See, this is my problem too. Us being outside of everything makes it hard for me to sympathize with them. We know what the Big E wants, while he goes about it oddly at times, his end goal is noble. Then seeing falls like the Word Bearers, it just feels silly from the outside.

Big E also wanted to exterminate all life within the galaxy aside from humanity, good or bad.

Its a shame that the imperium and chaos are presented as being black and white. the Noble defenders of the imperium, and the traitorous vermin of the traitor legions. Its very hard to have much sympathy for Chaos, even if you do recognise that they may have had compelling personal reasons.

Before the HH series was started, it could be quite easy to justify the distinction as simply it being the victors standpoint, but now that the traitor Primarchs are being presented as having prepubescent tantrums because their daddy didn't love them enough, and how the universe was so unfair to them you simply cannot view them with any kind of sympathy whatsoever.

It would have been far more compelling if Horus wasn't the bad guy we all know he was, but the real bad guy was the emperor. what if it was the emperor who was manipulated by outside forces, what if the emperor was in the thrall of a c'tan, or even a C'tan himself, and Horus found out? His betrayal would have been a far more noble thing, and his turning to the chaos gods could be viewed as him turning to the dark side as it were for all the right reasons. to cut out the rotten heart of the imperium, and whatever it cost him personally, his soul, his reputation and that he would be remembered as a traitor for all time, it would be worth it because he was being noble and performing the ultimate act of self sacrifice.

Instead, the traitor legions are scum, turning against everything, and everyone that believed in them for the most stupid and self centered reasons. they come accross, as i have already said, as nothing short of self obsessed, self satisfied, greedy selfish teenagers.

I'm going with WoC.

However the Horus Heresy is by far beautiful lore and gives the Traitor Legions most of them anyways a very gothic tragic background. Very much so the depraved dark angels of the universe.

But the Frozen North is a brutal land that forges brutal men. You kill or be killed there is no tragedy these men worship gods that very much echo the lifestyle they lead. Also fething vikings.


And Archareon hasn't fethed the pooch 13 times trying to destroy the Empire of Sigmar.

They're not Vikings! They're about as much Vikings as that marvel super hero (who despite a very good actor is an insult to the hammer god)

As for WoC being born to chaos, that's the problem they're just submitting to the ideas and ideals of their cultures and that makes them bland and boring. CSM is going against everything they were taught and seek a new path. Rage against the system, tear down the not functioning order. I can sympathize with that a lot more than, my father was evil so I must be evil.

Actually I quite like chaos space marines having personalities, flaws and aims beyond the "Death to da false emprah"

Whats wrong with CSM's having a little nobility or there being a sliding morale scale as opposed to black and white. Look their not exactly the poster child for a free and democratic society but really is the Imperium any better?

Excel in the eyes of the Gods or the superhuman warriors, get elevated in station, Excel in the Imperium get shot or investigated for heresy.

Warriors of Chaos never made a choice, regardless of a forced or loaded choice, they followed their birthright. Chaos space marines chose their path, they didn't "Betray humanity" they "Betrayed the Imperium" BIG difference, lets not forget entire planets survived isolated by the Imperium and raised by chaos, some were even quite successful. Ultimately the average Joe doesn;t matter which corpse god he is aligned to so long as the other gribblies in the universe aren't going to invade/rape/pillage them