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So I have always disdained cookie cutter lists and in general, I agree with the philosophy of redundancy, but don't like the generally linear thinking most gamers come up with, with regards to redundancy. "If one aspect of your army is important, there is no reason that aspect MUST be the same thing everytime."

This is the general philosophy I live by, "redundancy with variation"

In any case, I don't claim to be crazy competitive, but I still make lists to win via my play-style, and this is a fun competitive list I drew up with things I greatly enjoy in the new tau codex:

HQ:
Shadowsun 135 (With crisis Suits)
Commander, drone controller, x2 burst cannon, neuroweb jammer, (puretide chip or iridium), x2 gun drones 154(164)(With gun drones)

(normally always ran a plasma/plasma, or fusion fusion commander, but gave this one a go and had a blast! Nothin like throwin 36 S5 bs5 shots downrange!)

Troops:
kroot x13, hound 83
kroot x13, hound 83

(I feel like tau got a little screwed with their troop choices the most, and though cost reductions and slight improvements to weapons were good, the limited variety and lack of specialization made them very bland. I have found that this form of kroot is the most cost effective, and has the highest survivability thanks to outflank, and is really the only tau troop combination that can attempt to claim enemy objectives.)


Elites:
Riptide, Ion accelerator, EWO, (twin-linked plasma) 190
Riptide, Heavy Burst Cannnon, SMS, EWO, skyfire, twin-linked fusion gun 205
Crisis x3: Shas'vre w/ C&C node, M-S Sensor, drone controller, x2 Shas'ui w/ (any combo of fusion or plasma), target locks, x4 marker drone 237

(Fairly cut and dry, riptide for elite units, riptide for horde and fliers, and a high damage crisis team that ignores cover and everything is twin-linked. Add in shadowsun and their survivability skyrockets)

Fast Attack:
Drones x12 168

(the new drone controller makes this unit incredible, reliable volume of fire I have not seen before in any army when combined with a commander)

Heavy Support:
Broadside team x3, SMS, Early Warning Override x2 shield drones 234

(tried the new missile sides, and though I really enjoy their crazy output, having to put them that much closer to the enemy really hurts their survivability. I decided I would run heavy rail rifles for a while to see if maybe they are still useful.)

Total: 1489

I love this list I feel it has a huge amount of firepower for 1500 points, although they aren't very many bodies. You have 11 points left, you might as well add in an extra kroot or hound or both, (I can't remember what their points are off the top of my head). Otherwise, i particularly like taking the Stimulant Injector on my riptide just to give me some kind of save against nova overheating, (and also, the last time I told my opponent that I got a FnP save against a lascannon was a very satisfying experience). But really I think this list is golden, and when I can afford to buy another riptide, I well definitely be borrowing it!

Oh- and obviously you would have to cut something else to get the Stim. Injector, maybe a drone here and there or something.

Yeah I already tried a game with the riptide stim injector, and it for me was just not worth it, 35 points is a ton for a 5++ roll, and it only was used once.

I agree with the kroot, I will likely lose a point or something somewhere and add 1 more to each squad.

35 points is a ton to increase the survivability of a 200pt unit by 33%? Not sure why you'd think that?

I like your crisis team. I looked at that commander unit and you get more S5 hits per point from fire warriors (who granted have lots of other downsides). You've spent 332pts on those 36 S5 shots which get on average 33.889 hits. 332 gets you 36.889 FWs that get 36.889 S5 hits at 18" with carbines. The FWs can also receive ML boosts. Not saying the FWs are a great choice just showing you the other side to that HQ unit you've picked.

I don't like the burst cannon Riptide at all. 4 S6 hits on average on a flyer won't even make them bother evading... the Fusion adds area denial but for me it is only worth it if both Riptides are doing it to form a protective wall. But it means you're missing out on FnP which is too good not to take on a Riptide.

Go back to Missilesides and get multiple units. The railsides have their place but only once you've got at least 4 Missilesides in the list.

I like the kroot troops, particularly given the limited options in the codex i think they're the best choice. Two troops units seems a bit too few for a 1500pt game to me, only letting you hold two objectives and not having a lot of wounds in each unit. I've been trying to figure out the appropriate amount of troops for my own lists, have you considered adding a third kroot with sniper ammo to hold onto your own objectives?

Agreed with Skink on the firepower, very impressive punch in a maneuverable package. Have you considered adding some more marker drones to different units so that you can use them to boost BS for "gets hot" rerolls for your overcharged Riptides? I only see 4 in your list, which I don't know is enough to generate reliable support.

35 Points is no small number, talk about giving it to both of them and suddenly you are giving them upgrades that give you a broadside. I have also used it and I am just on the side that doesnt think it is worth the 35 points, it is just TOO expensive.

Im taking a break from missile sides, I will probably discover they are better, which I believe they already are, but I cant be sure they fit my style till I try and so Ill get a bunch of games in with regulars and decide.

What should be the final itteration of the list, ran a test game the other night and it performed rather well. I will say this, the burst commander with gun drones is really dumb. As in really, really good, kind-of overpowered and a blast to play with!

Decided that the broadsides dont need drones, as last time I fielded them, the drones did one thing, which was force a morale check...that they promptly failed and fled. They shouldnt be the focus of the opponent anyways, and those 6 gun drones are important.

HQ:
Shadowsun 135
Commander, drone controller, x2 burst cannon, neuroweb jammer, x2 gun drones, iridium armor, puretide chip, counterfire defense 184

Troops:
kroot x13, hound 83
kroot x13, hound 83


Elites:
Riptide, Ion accelerator, EWO, (twin-linked plasma) 190
Riptide, Heavy Burst Cannnon, SMS, EWO, twin-linked fusion gun 185
Crisis x3: Shas'vre w/ C&C node, M-S Sensor, drone controller, x2 Shas'ui w/ (any combo of fusion or plasma), target locks, x6 marker drone 261


Fast Attack:
Drones x12 168

Heavy Support:
Broadside team x3, SMS, Early Warning Override 210

Total: 1499

Decided that the broadsides dont need drones, as last time I fielded them, the drones did one thing, which was force a morale check...

How did they have wolf scouts come on behind you or something? Or where the Broadsides already dead, as you can't LoS to them how did they die first?

No, I was running missile sides, hammer and anvil so long ways deployment, Had to post them far enough up to be in range, one lobba shot killed both drones, forced morale, and they failed.

How did it kill the drones and not the Broadsides in front of them? Remember in 6th ed wounds are allocated to the nearest model first.

Yes, the lobbas shot, scattered backward (from ork player perspective) to where the blasts landed in front of the unit and hit 3. drones failed both saves, broadsides took no damage, 40% of the squad died so I rolled morale and failed, and the broads never recovered.

If it landed in front of the unit the Broadsides should take the saves until they are dead. Only then should the drones have to start taking saves. You assign wounds one at a time on the nearest model until it dies. The Broadsides unit shouldn't be take morale checks until all the Broadsides are dead at which point it is much less of an issue.

I am confused by your point, if the drones are in front, and closest to the enemy, hence their intended purpose to absorb wounds, then they would be the first to die, and therefore the broadsides wouldn't take wounds until the drones die.

The drones were 2/5 of the squad, therefore when they died, I was required to take a moral check

 FlingitNow wrote:
If it landed in front of the unit the Broadsides should take the saves until they are dead. Only then should the drones have to start taking saves. You assign wounds one at a time on the nearest model until it dies. The Broadsides unit shouldn't be take morale checks until all the Broadsides are dead at which point it is much less of an issue.

Actually since lobbas are barrage weapons, he would have removed casualties from the center of the blast first, then work his way outward. Page 34.


"To determine whether a unit wounded by a Barrage weapon is allowed a cover save, and when
determining Wound allocation, always assume the shot is coming from the centre of the blast marker"

I am confused by your point, if the drones are in front, and closest to the enemy, hence their intended purpose to absorb wounds, then they would be the first to die, and therefore the broadsides wouldn't take wounds until the drones die.

Drones shouldn't be at the front. They only have a 4+ save they are a liability if put at the front as weapons with a poor AP will cause you casualties and force leadership tests. This is why shield drones have no function except with ICs (who can LoS the wounds they want onto that 4++). Broadsides should have missile drones and the drones should be behind them because their function is cheap extra fire power.

So by Broadsides don't need drones you meant if you make a rookie mistake with drones it can cost you. To which Id say if you use any unit in a stupid way that unit won't perform.

 FlingitNow wrote:

I am confused by your point, if the drones are in front, and closest to the enemy, hence their intended purpose to absorb wounds, then they would be the first to die, and therefore the broadsides wouldn't take wounds until the drones die.

Drones shouldn't be at the front. They only have a 4+ save they are a liability if put at the front as weapons with a poor AP will cause you casualties and force leadership tests. This is why shield drones have no function except with ICs (who can LoS the wounds they want onto that 4++). Broadsides should have missile drones and the drones should be behind them because their function is cheap extra fire power.

So by Broadsides don't need drones you meant if you make a rookie mistake with drones it can cost you. To which Id say if you use any unit in a stupid way that unit won't perform.

Wow, um this was a little rude. But I will restrain myself and argue it logically.

Shield drones always had a single purpose, and that was to absorb wounds before the more valuable models are forcibly removed. Gun drones, marker drones, shield drones and even missile drones are all the same in this regard. If you are hiding your drones so that your more valuable things die first, sorry but I consider this a rookie mistake as you are protecting something not meant to be protected.

With regards to my broadsides, being railsides, missile drones hold little to know value where the points can be spent much better elsewhere. With 60" range, I am going to be placing well outside of harms way and therefore 36" range will not be enough to support them.

Lets look at this logically:
If my broadsides take missile drones:
I will want to move them closer to make use of the drones, and by your logic put my broadsides closer so that the 12 point BS2 missile drones survive but the railgun/sms wielding 70 point broadsides dont. I dont understand this logic, all I can say is it sounds quite foolish.

If my broadsides don't take missile drones:
The cost of the unit is reduced, they can be held back as far as possible to utilize their massive range and if they are too take damage, I am not worried about saving drones instead of broadsides.

So once again, I think your "rookie mistake" comment is false and me removing drones from the unit OPTIMIZES their purpose.

I agree drones on Railsides are a less obvious choice, unlike Missilesides where they are mandatory. But 12 points for 2S7 shots is ludicrous value. Would you deploy your Railsides differently with them? No. Will your Railsides stay at >36" range for more than a turn? Again no.

Do you put the drones at the front? Again no. I've never had Broadsides run off the table because some drones died. Never. Why? Because I don't put them out front unless all the shooting my opponent has that can target them is Ap2 and S8+. Putting 4+ save models in front of 2+ save models is not a good idea in 6th as you open up the squad to taking damage and morale checks to much weaker fire and massively increase your 25% threshold.

The Broadsides are survivable that is their strength. Both the sides and the missiles have a large damage output to points ratio (compare the 12pt drone to a 15pt gotta who is inferior in almost every way). So which do you put in the front the tough stuff or the weak stuff. Putting the drones in front is even dumber than putting Long fangs in front of the attached Wolfguard terminator...

My problem with your argument is that you are still saving the drones by putting your high output and very valuable broadsides in harms way. As well, my problem with the drones is BS2, even if you maxed out the drones, they still on average only hit with 4 shots, and 4 shots for 72 points is not a great value. It also forces you to fire likely more shots than you need (with broads and drones combined) at a single target, essentially throwing all of your eggs in one basket.

If you want better valued and more useful missile shots, then go missile crisis suits, spreads out your damage and gives you more flexibility for a better package, especially with the new rules for crisis. 4 missile shots, at BS3 on a 52 point package is a MUCH better value. add a few points and one of them is twin linked.

3 crisis suits in that package are only 171 points, have worse armor yes, but have JsJ. An incredible value, but unfortunately they share space with riptides which are rediculous.

Good point with the crisis suits 4 hits for 108 points is far more efficient than 4 hits for 72 points... also with 2 most that 108pts nets you 6.67 hits the 72pts gets you 8. Those crisis suits are so much more cost effective.

You have 2 choices with the broadsides. Take no drones or take drones. Whether you have drones or not the broad sides are in the same amount of harms way. Do you want one of the most damage efficient models in the codex as an addition.

Drones don't protect suits in 6th Ed. They simply don't fulfill that function. Trying to make them do that function doesn't work unless you have a LoS. Drones are there for cheap damage that is all

 FlingitNow wrote:
Good point with the crisis suits 4 hits for 108 points is far more efficient than 4 hits for 72 points... also with 2 most that 108pts nets you 6.67 hits the 72pts gets you 8. Those crisis suits are so much more cost effective.

You have 2 choices with the broadsides. Take no drones or take drones. Whether you have drones or not the broad sides are in the same amount of harms way. Do you want one of the most damage efficient models in the codex as an addition.

Drones don't protect suits in 6th Ed. They simply don't fulfill that function. Trying to make them do that function doesn't work unless you have a LoS. Drones are there for cheap damage that is all

Once again with arrogance, keep it civil man if you disagree then disagree, but don't be a dick about it.

That first statement is incorrect, those 108pts gets you 5 hits(8 shots, 4 twin linked, so 2 with the non twin linked, 3 with twin linked), mobility, a 3+ save, ignores night fighting, and the ability to fire at something separate from the broadsides as apposed to firing more shots than necessary at a single target.

Second statement is also incorrect. A model that can be placed up to 60" away as apposed to one placed 36" a way means the closer models are CLOSER TO THE ENEMY and therefore more in harms way. HYMP broadsides are very good, I know this, but I am giving the regular ones a try.

Your third statement is also false, drones are not only tools for damaging, but are there for utility as well, this includes protecting more valuable targets. For instance, marker drones are incredible when combined with a drone controller, they do no damage? Shield drones have lost a lot of their luster yes, with the loss of using the save of their controller. Yet drones in MAJORITY circumstances are ablative wounds when placed next to more high value targets. as well, nearly every army these days has one of 2 options in abundance for low model count low armor save targets. Those options are either massed shots or high strength low ap shots. As well nearly anyone who plays tau enough, knows now that HYMPsides are high priority targets because of their output, and therefore will throw a lot of fire power at them. 2+ saves at T4 with no invul will only hold up to so much.

You put 52 points which means 2 missile pods (52 points) MP + TL MP = 57 points upping that total to 114 points, so that's a nearly 50% points increase for 25% fire power increase. Yes you're getting a 3+, but those drones should have a 2+ sat in front of them.

Your 2nd point has nothing to do with what I said. Why deploy your broadsides closer because they've got drones? Again you're saying drones are pointless if you do something dumb with them. Deploying 60" away from the enemy is rarely actually possible and certainly impossible to maintain for more than a turn or 2 in most cases (a point I've already made that I assume you intentionally ignored). You deploy your Broadsides in the best place for them regardless of attached drones. This may well mean the drones are out of range turn 1 or even turn 2. As they can JSJ though this will rarely be the case, but even if it is they will get targets soon enough.

I was talking about missile drones for cheap damage. Though with a DC both the gun drones and marker drones do this too. The markers don't directly do damage but those accurate moving MLs have a big impact on the damage output of your army. So again this is their function low points for maximum damage. In terms of protecting valuable stuff this only works in certain situations. With stealth teams or with shadowsun where everyone is getting a 2+ cover anyway so you're not giving easy morale checks away, or if you have a LoS so you can choose which shots to take on the multi wound models and which to take on the drones. None of this is relevant to how drones interact with a broadside team who have no LoS and no stealth+shrouded...

57 points, for a model that hits 2.5 times a turn, with a better save, better mobility, the ability to target separate units, better use of marker lights (as far fewer are necessary to boost their effectiveness), easier to hide(as drones are almost impossible to hide in cover since they float 3" off the ground, and that there is more of them), ignores night fighting, and has better cc ability in the event they get charged...How are they better again? Instead you are adding more points to an already expensive unit, with OK survivability(as a 4T 2+ save model w/ no invul, maxed at 3 models, no matter which way you slice it, doesnt survive much...). At minimum, you are making a just over 200 point unit, now close to 300 points, a 5th of your army in one squad, how does this make sense?!?

As you put it, the enemy cannot be kept at range forever and therefore, considering their max range is 36", they will be on top of you that much faster(since I see no real point to missile drones on non HYMP sides, and railsides have more flexibility for deployment), and that now 300 point unit dies that much faster.

As well, you stick those broads out front, they die first and suddenly your overcosted additional models are serving no real purpose... What is there purpose exactly? are they there to barely increase the squads output, yet give no benefit to the models that actually matter? I am still confused as to how they are a good addition...

In any case, the majority of this whole argument is moot as I won't be using missile sides anyways.

If you really feel so strongly about this subject, then I suggest you start a thread in "tactics" and see what others think!

57 points for 2.5 hits or say 48 for 2.67. As for MLs as already illustrated you are wrong. Yes you ignore night fighting hardly a massive boost (1pt upgrade on a vehicle). You are debatably better in assault 2 S5 I2 attacks vs 4 S3 I4 attacks, but you both suck at it hard the drones have a better chance to escape though.

Again the answer to your second point has already been made. I'm starting to think you're either trolling or you don't speak English.

As for the 3rd paragraph. The Broadsides will die first, just as quick as if you had no drones but you still have the UNDER COSTED drones providing cheap damage. They barely increase the squads output?!?! I've again already proven this to be false so again with the troll remarks. If you can't understand the benefits there is simply no helping you.

You two have been going at it for a few posts now. Tbh its great to see Tau have options and something to argue about finally.

I all fairness Missle Drones are cheap for the output they provide. I have yet to use them with HYMP Sides but I am going to try them out because the numbers seem great, especially against a heavy deepstrike army. I have to agree that you shouldn't be putting drones out front, hence the reason why people have been dropping the drones from Riptides cos you don't want that many points running off the board. At the end of the day if you have put a lot of points in a unit you should be more careful where you put them. There is no way I am leaving mine in the open I will be requiring that 4+ ruin save. Yes the range has been hampered but if your opponent has lots of units in charge range of your Sides you have done something else wrong with the rest of your army. IMO railsides just don't seem worth it anymore. Haven't taken Sides since the new codex but looking forward to dusting them off again.

At the end of the day anyone and everyone will say they favour a unit and tell us of amazing stories of how awesome they are, all you have to do is go with what you believe, pretty sure the OP said that the list wasn't meant to be super competitive. If it works it works. Flinginit is pretty much just reiterating the strongest unit and composition out there atm for Tau. Just read pretty much every Tau list at the moment. Don't think that many people would get it wrong.

Enjoy, new codex try stuff out that's the point!

ATO

I agree, they are very likely far more useful, effective and competitive not being railheads. But I cannot really say for sure until I try :/

Obviously Flingitnow and I have a disagreement about unit choice that we will likely not be able to concince each other otherwise, and seeing how far it has devolved, I am done with it. I just don't see the drones being worth it, and having used them, found that they weren't. If Flingitnow has used them, and they work, then I hope him all the best in his games( though most of his lists I have seen don't include them...), but his success will never be my success. We each have to cater to what works for our playstyle.

In essence, just because something is considered or proven to be very good, that doesn't mean that just anyone can use them properly.

I fail like I wrote off railsides too quickly with all the rage of them losing S10 ap1 weapons, which as I am sure many other tau players will agree, is understandable frustration, but in general tau have great flexibility now and I love playing them. So though their role has changed, I want to see where the new railsides fit in the tau meta before I set a final verdict on their usefulness.

Last thing I will say about missile drones, is that having been a tau player since their first inception, and having tried to play orks on many platforms before, I simply abhor unreliable shooting. maybe it has just been my luck with the dice, but anytime I have needed to rely on how volume low probability shots, they haven't paid off.

As well I personal have always considered methods for keeping the Bsides alive as long as possible was the best strategy, but with the loss of old shield drones, I havent really come up with a strategy to make this possible, and I dont see adding units to the squad that don't increase their the chance of their survival as useful to me.

It is just where I stand atm :|