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Hi guys,

If I'm playing a Dark Angels Deathwing Army - I've got a the following:-

1. large number of D/W whom I am inserting using D/W Assault;
2. HQ w/Command Squad in Drop Pod.

Both of em will come in in Turn 1. I've probably got another 2 units deployed as per normal. Will I be contravening the 50% reserve rule?

Thanks guys!

The FAQ has your answer.

Depends.

The drop pod and it's contents will not count (as per main Rulebook FAQ), but the Deathwing will count (as per the Dark angels FAQ).
How many units are you deploying and how many are using DWA?

Does the HQ in question come with the Deathwing command squad? Can it even take a drop pod?

If you only have 2 units deployed, then you can only reserve 2 units of deathwing. Anything in the pod doesn't count in line with the reserve rules for units that must deploy by deep strike.

Actually you could reserve 3, as half of5 units rounds up to 3

Thanks for the advice guys.

So in that case, if I got...

1x Unit of D/W on Deathwing Assault

1x Dread in a Drop Pod

1x HQ w/Command Squad in a Drop Pod

Land Speeders Deep Striking

1x Nephilim in Reserve

......... only 4 of these would count towards the Reserves limit of 50% (1 Drop Pod is not included in the 50% limit) of your total number of units, i.e. 8 units total, including the 5 units above. Would that be correct?

Things that have to start n Reserve (so the Nephilim and Drop Pods in your example) don't count. Things embarked on transports that have to start in reserves (so Dread and Command Squad with HQ) also don't count. That leaves you with the Land Speeders and the DWTs.

 Happyjew wrote:
Things embarked on transports that have to start in reserves (so Dread and Command Squad with HQ) also don't count.

Just to clarify: Only if it is a Dedicated Transport that has to stay in Reserve. For example, any unit that starts the game embarked on a Vendetta or Stormraven will count, while the Vendetta/Stormraven itself does not count.

 dominiquekee wrote:
Thanks for the advice guys.

So in that case, if I got...

1x Unit of D/W on Deathwing Assault

1x Dread in a Drop Pod

1x HQ w/Command Squad in a Drop Pod

Land Speeders Deep Striking

1x Nephilim in Reserve

......... only 4 of these would count towards the Reserves limit of 50% (1 Drop Pod is not included in the 50% limit) of your total number of units, i.e. 8 units total, including the 5 units above. Would that be correct?

You have to put at least one of those units on the table.

The Land Speeder, The HQ and the DW unit all count towards the Reserve rules.
Since you are attaching the IC to the unit in the Drop pod, that model is excluded as well because the Drop Pod must start in Reserve.
That leaves the Land Speeders and the DW unit.
One of those must be deployed on the table.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

cowmonaut wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Things embarked on transports that have to start in reserves (so Dread and Command Squad with HQ) also don't count.

Just to clarify: Only if it is a Dedicated Transport that has to stay in Reserve. For example, any unit that starts the game embarked on a Vendetta or Stormraven will count, while the Vendetta/Stormraven itself does not count.

No, that is incorrect. See the FAQ:

"Q: Do units that are transported in a vehicle that MUST start in reserve count towards the number of units that can be placed in Reserves?
For example, must I count the units in a Drop Pod or Valkyrie towards the 50% of units I can place in Reserves? (p124)
A: No."

What HQ are you using? If it's Belial and the Deathwing, I don't think they get a drop pod.

Belial will come in by Deathwing Assault.

The Drop Pod is for the tank busting meltas

Then Belial will be an extra unit in reserve, counting towards the total, even if attached to one of the Deathwing units.

Presuming a Power-armoured command squad with meltas in the 'pod then? Keep checking FAQ's incase they change the current wording to prevent termi- and bike- HQ's taking PA comm squads.

Quanar wrote:
Then Belial will be an extra unit in reserve, counting towards the total, even if attached to one of the Deathwing units.

Presuming a Power-armoured command squad with meltas in the 'pod then? Keep checking FAQ's incase they change the current wording to force termi- and bike- HQ's taking PA comm squads.

Even so, keeping 2 in Reserve and 1 on the table is legal.

40k-noob wrote:
Even so, keeping 2 in Reserve and 1 on the table is legal.

Yep, was just trying to head-off the next question.

40k-noob wrote:
No, that is incorrect. See the FAQ:

"Q: Do units that are transported in a vehicle that MUST start in reserve count towards the number of units that can be placed in Reserves?
For example, must I count the units in a Drop Pod or Valkyrie towards the 50% of units I can place in Reserves? (p124)
A: No."

Um, wow. I missed that FAQ update. I didn't even think there was real confusion on that issue... And I love how its still ambiguous and doesn't say that if in the example the Valkyrie was part of the FW Elysian IG army, where it IS a Dedicated Transport.

So, makes a new question for me: Per the IG FAQ, the Platoon counts as all one unit. If I put a SWS on the Valkyrie/Vendetta does the whole platoon no longer count? Or does the SWS "count" as having been deployed on the table?

Only the units that are transported in a vehicle that must start in reserve do not count towards the number of units that can be placed in Reserves.

cowmonaut wrote:
Um, wow. I missed that FAQ update. I didn't even think there was real confusion on that issue... And I love how its still ambiguous and doesn't say that if in the example the Valkyrie was part of the FW Elysian IG army, where it IS a Dedicated Transport.

It's not really ambiguous... the FAQ covers *all* transports. For this ruling, whether it's dedicated or not is irrelevant, the unit inside doesn't count towards reserves.

So, makes a new question for me: Per the IG FAQ, the Platoon counts as all one unit. If I put a SWS on the Valkyrie/Vendetta does the whole platoon no longer count? Or does the SWS "count" as having been deployed on the table?

Now this one, I'm not sure on. I take it you're referring to the bit in the FAQ that refers to how they're deployed, and that includes this:
"Any units in reserve that are embarked upon a non-dedicated transport are instead rolled for separately.”
This, to me, says that it should be treated as a separate unit in other deployment regards and so not counted, and that would mean by extension that the rest of the platoon still does. The other FAQ also supports the SWS not counting, but gives us no information on what to do with the rest of the platoon. So, agreed that this isn't yet answered.

Where did they rule that an all Deathwing Army can't DWA or am I missing something? (Yes I READ the GW FAQ, and they don't address it there.)

Or is everyone just going off the INAT/Adepticon ruling?

 Akar wrote:
Where did they rule that an all Deathwing Army can't DWA or am I missing something? (Yes I READ the GW FAQ, and they don't address it there.)

Or is everyone just going off the INAT/Adepticon ruling?

Latest DA FAQ:

"Q: Do units deploying via the Deathwing Assault special rule count
toward the limit of units you are allowed to keep in Reserves at the
start of a battle? (p44)
A: Yes."

Oddly theyre going of the DA FAQ, whihc states that DWA follows the normal rules for reserves

It says they count toward the limit, that's the extent of it.

There is no change to say they are affected by the limit since one doesn't exist at the time DWA is implemented. Nothing in the errata changed the timing, wording or function of the Deathwing Assault rule. This FAQ was needed since they created a reserve situation involving reserves not covered by the BRB. So the rule remains unchanged as far as allowing all DW Terminator units to deploy using DWA. All the FAQ changed was limiting OTHER units having the ability to go into Reserve, during the Deployment step.

Not tryin to troll here but can't help but feel that this might come across that way. Im really trying to understand how the DA FAQ restricts ANY units from being able to use DWA w/o any errata to the actual rule. Or that it somehow leads people to believe that there is a 50% reserve rule, which people keep referring to but have yet to state where it actually exists.

You are restricted from placing more than 50% of your units in reserve.

You are told DWA models count towards this limit

Find an exception to this allowance, given you have again been reminded that DWA places models in reserves.

Show me the rule where the 50% thing applies to everything in reserve? It does not exist.

The Reserves rule states that a player is PERMITTED to keep up to 1/2 of their units in Reserve, WHEN deploying your forces (something that people keep leaving out or ignoring). It's at this step that you then calculate which units CAN be placed in Reserve, and not something that happens the moment anyone chooses to use something that utilizes or enters play using the Reserves rule. The FAQ addresses DWA counting toward the limit because they fall into a category not covered by the BRB, and not that the limit applies to them when they choose to utilize the DWA rule. (ie. they're not 'must' units.)

The exception has already been explicitly made by the Codex: Dark Angels by stating quite clearly that DWA occurs at a time before the deployment of forces. Yes, it has been argued that it happens at a phase that isn't listed in the normal sequence, but that argument doesn't place it in the Deployment step. It is an exception to the normal order of events, and is granted by the Codex, overrides and is allowed by the BRB. ALL DW Terminator units can still utilize the DWA rule, and nothing has changed that. All the FAQ affected is that an all DW player can't place 3 units in DWA, then place 2 more units in Reserve when he gets to the deployment to save some units for later. It's an all or nothing rule, which they've now clarified that's how they want it to be played. Most other players that want to use non-DW units in their DA list will usually take things that they intend to start on the board anyways, or take units that fill out the 'must start...' requirement.

And no, there is no 'reminder' that DWA places the models or deploys units in reserve. That has yet to be clarified.

 Akar wrote:
Yes, it has been argued that it happens at a phase that isn't listed in the normal sequence, but that argument doesn't place it in the Deployment step.

It actually does. Perhaps you'd like to discuss actual rules?
Page 121. Determine Warlord Traits, <Deathwing Assault Rules go here> Deploy Forces. All of that is in what step?

rigeld2 wrote:
Page 121. Determine Warlord Traits, <Deathwing Assault Rules go here> Deploy Forces. All of that is in what step?

Yes, You'd be 100% correct if it occurred in the Deployment Phase. Is the Reserves rule in effect at the 'Determine Warlord Traits' Step, or during the 'Deploy Forces' Step? Is the Reserves rule in effect during the entire Deployment Phase? Is the Reserves rule in effect for ANY unit being placed in Reserves at any time, by any means? Does the DWA rule state it applies during 'Deployment' or something else more specific like after 'Determine Warlord Traits'?

Right there afterwards, is the 'Deploy Forces' Step. This is the WHEN part of deploying actual models occurs. This is where the Reserves rule is used, and the Permission to keep up to 50% off the table applies. It quite clearly says 'When deploying forces'. It does not say during 'Deployment' and it feels like several people are trying pass this off as what the rule with no evidence to support it. Nothing in the Reserves rule states that it affects anything outside of this step when 'Preparing Reserves'. The DWA rule is EXPLICIT about not being a part of this step. The Reserves rule is EXPLICIT about being a part of this step.

Rules aside, all Im asking for is an explanation as to how the FAQ makes the 'Deploy Forces' step apply to when a DA player uses DWA, and somehow becomes subject to the Reserves rule in the first place? The only answer that's been given in any of the debates I've read, and this was prior to the FAQ, is some non-existent blanket rule that says you can only HAVE 1/2 your forces or you HAVE to start with 1/2 your forces on the table.

 Akar wrote:
is some non-existent blanket rule that says you can only HAVE 1/2 your forces or you HAVE to start with 1/2 your forces on the table.

Are you deploying your army when choosing to DWA? (Hint: the answer is yes)
What do the Reserves rules say about deploying your army... Let's take a look.

When deploying their armies, players can choose not to deploy up to half of their units (rounding up) keeping them as Reserves to arrive later.

So you can choose to keep up to half of your army in Reserves. If your army is 10 units of Terminators and you put 10 of them in Reserves to DWA, is that more or less than "up to half" of your army?

 Akar wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Page 121. Determine Warlord Traits, <Deathwing Assault Rules go here> Deploy Forces. All of that is in what step?

Yes, You'd be 100% correct if it occurred in the Deployment Phase. Is the Reserves rule in effect at the 'Determine Warlord Traits' Step, or during the 'Deploy Forces' Step? Is the Reserves rule in effect during the entire Deployment Phase? Is the Reserves rule in effect for ANY unit being placed in Reserves at any time, by any means? Does the DWA rule state it applies during 'Deployment' or something else more specific like after 'Determine Warlord Traits'?

Reserves rule is in effect when you deploy your army. Which means any time you're choosing how to deploy, it's in effect.

Right there afterwards, is the 'Deploy Forces' Step. This is the WHEN part of deploying actual models occurs. This is where the Reserves rule is used, and the Permission to keep up to 50% off the table applies. It quite clearly says 'When deploying forces'. It does not say during 'Deployment' and it feels like several people are trying pass this off as what the rule with no evidence to support it. Nothing in the Reserves rule states that it affects anything outside of this step when 'Preparing Reserves'. The DWA rule is EXPLICIT about not being a part of this step. The Reserves rule is EXPLICIT about being a part of this step.

You've misquoted the actual rule. It is not explicit as being restricted to only ever applying during the "Deploy Forces" step. Instead, it says things like "During deployment" and "When deploying their armies". You're wholly incorrect about when the restriction is in force.

rigeld2 wrote:
Are you deploying your army when choosing to DWA? (Hint: the answer is yes)

Really, no mention is made of deploying in my Codex: Dark Angels? You either choose to do it or not? Or is there an FAQ or rule somewhere that says they are in fact deploying?

- Determine Warlord Traits (BRB)
- CHOOSE ANY Deathwing units to DWA (C: DA)
- Deploy Forces (BRB)
- Prepare Reserves / Permission to keep up to 1/2 in Reserve (BRB)
- DWA units COUNT toward this 1/2 limit (FAQ)

By choosing (key word here) to use DWA you are putting models in Reserve. We know this is true because of how Deep Strike works.

Since you're using the rules for Reserves, you're deploying your army.

Please give rules/references to support your statement.