ChaosSmaug wrote:My best friend plays a Dark Angels army, and he has always gone the route of a fluffy terminator heavy list. Both of us believed that the rule allowed you to take termie squads and nominate them for
DWA, but that you couldn't break the 50% rule.
Having read all the stuff on this thread, I feel like the people arguing for breaking the 50% rule are really trying to pick apart the rule. So instead of trying to back up the argument against it, I'll raise what I think will be a new point.
Thank you for bringing this to light, and I'll attempt to respond properly.
Im not really trying to pick apart any rule. I'm merely asking where this mythical 50% rule exists. All counter-arguments have been made assuming that you can ONLY have 50% of your force in reserve, and that anything that counts toward this limit, is somehow restricted by it. The reserves rule itself permits more than 50% of any force to be in reserve. Flyers and Drop Pods are both allowed to be in reserve above the non-existent 50% limit. Re-read the Reserve rules and you'll see that these units don't not grant permission to go above 50%.
ChaosSmaug wrote: There are only two types of units that I know don't count towards the 50% limit. Flyers and Drop Pods. Both of those units tell you that they MUST start in reserves, and both have special rules that explicitly say they do NOT count towards the 50% limit on reserves.
While your explanation does make sense, it doesn't follow the wording under the Reserves rule. When it is stated at anything counts toward the the 50% limit or not, you are implying there first exists a rule that says there is a 50% limit.
From the Reserves rule. (pg.124)
'When deploying their armies, players can choose not to deploy up to half of their units (rounding up) keeping them as Reserves to arrive later. Units that must start the game in reserve are ignored for the purposes of which units may do so.'
The bit being challenged isn't the 50% portion of the reserves rule. It's how this somehow extends to units that could potentially already be in reserve, prior to deploying their forces. There is a condition set within the Reserves rule that specifically addresses 'when deploying forces'. As I stated above, nothing has changed in the
BRB Errata/
FAQ to change this to 'During the Deployment Phase', 'When using the Reserves rule', or 'Anything in Reserve'. It's an interpretation of the application of what 'deploy forces' means, and when it is to be applied.
So when any player reaches the 'deploy forces' step, there is no calculation for which units count toward the 50% limit or not. There is only a calculation that allows for how many of the remaining units
not in reserve to be granted the ability to be placed in reserve. This permission is still operating under the 'when deploying their armies' condition. There isn't a logical leap to say that all units that count toward the limit, can't be in reserves, if this takes them above 50%. There is simply a calculation of 50% of units that may take advantage of the reserves rule when deploying. Prior to C:
DA, when it gets simplified down to 'units that count toward the limit, are affected by the limit', it ends up being interpreted as the same thing.
ChaosSmaug wrote: No where in the rules for
DWA does it say either of those things. So while yes you can CHOOSE to take a unit of termies and give them
DWA you are not required to do so. And since it does not give you express permission to exclude those units from the reserve limit, and the
FAQ then says they count towards the reserve limit, it seems to reason that they do in fact count towards the 50% limit and you can't take a whole
DWA army.
There is no debate about
DWA mentioning that they can take it above the 50% limit, because it's not there and doesn't need to be. There is only permission to use
DWA. This permission has it's own timing. 'after determining Warlord Traits'. It has all the permission it needs to put any and all Terminator units with the rule into reserves. No mention is made in the rule (and nothing has errata/
FAQ'd it to include) changing that is is done during deployment, or affected by the rules for deploying forces. It doesn't need to because it tells us to do it after determining Warlord Traits.
ChaosSmaug wrote: Yes some of
GWs rules can be weird and vague, but generally they are really good about telling you exactly what you are allowed to do with a unit. With flyers and drop pods you are allowed to not count them towards the limit, because they told you so. With
DWA they didn't tell you that, so what makes you think you can?
Again, another explanation that makes sense, but implies something else. Flyers and Drop Pods do not count toward the limit? Which limit are you talking about? The 50% limit, or the limit of which units may use the reserves rule when deploying? It may appear as the same thing, but they are different in application. The outcome is however the same when you take
DWA out of the picture. Since
DWA is what is being challenged, we have to go to the application of it when we play the game.
1) Determine Warlord Traits.
2)
DWA Step: Choose Any/All/Some/None units to
DWA. (Place them in Reserve, since this seems to be a stickler for some). They are not being deployed there (
DWA doesn't state that it does giving it sufficient permission to be there), and they are not using the Reserves rule to be there. (
DWA doesn't mention that it follows the rules for Reserves like it does by comparison to other Codex Terminator entries), and it happens before we reach the 'Deploy forces' step of the Deployment phase. MANY players have argued that there is no step between 'Determine Warlord Traits' and 'Deploy Forces'. IF the C:
DA doesn't grant permission to create this step, then it must exist in either the 'Determine Warlord Traits' step, or the 'Deploy Forces step'. Since
DWA says 'after Determining Warlord Traits' and hasn't been Errata'd/
FAQ'd to be changed to 'At the start of the Deploy Forces step.',
DWA then occurs before 'deploy forces' in both of the more likely interpretations. Applying
DWA as a part of 'Deploy Forces' since that's what happens immediately after 'Determine Warlord Traits' is a valid interpretation, but it is the weakest of the 3 possible outcomes.
3) Deploy forces: NOW we are at the point where we actually deploy forces. Nothing in
DWA says that we put any units in reserve at this point, they are already placed there during the 'Determine Warlord Traits' step. (ie. We don't choose to
DWA all the units, then deploy them in reserves when we get to the 'Deploy forces' step and then somehow be forced to change our mind as to which ones can or cannot use
DWA because they count toward the limit.
NOTHING up until this point has any conflict of rules, with both the DWA and the Reserves rule allowing each other to function. 3a) Determine how many units may deploy in reserves when deploying forces. Here was have a conflict that isn't covered by either the
DWA rule or the Reserves rule. ALL THE RULE ALLOWS FOR IS THE CALCULATION OF WHICH UNITS COUNT TOWARD ALLOWING WHICH OTHER UNITS MAY USE THE RESERVE RULE
TO DEPLOY DURING THE DEPLOY FORCES STEP. 'Units that must start the game in reserve are ignored for the purposes of
which forces may do so.' Here is where the subtle difference of interpretation of the 50% reserves rule actually makes a difference.
DWA isn't specifically covered here so we have to look at what the
FAQ actually says.
Do units deploying via Deathwing Assault count toward the limit of units that you are allowed to keep in reserve at the start of battle?
Yes.
So something has happened here that leads us to believe that
DWA is not exempt from being more than 50% in reserve. It has added the word 'deploying' to the question. So units deploying via
DWA are in fact deploying. (Reading my earlier posts, I didn't make this distinction which may have led to misleading in my explanations). Are they deploying into reserves via the Reserves rules? No, they are deploying using Deathwing Assault, the
FAQ has made this much very clear. When do units wishing to enter reserve, using the reserves rule, enter reserves then? This
FAQ didn't change that. It happens when deploying forces. Since
DWA units are not ignored for the purposes of
determining which units may enter reserve , as they don't meet the criteria for being ignored, how do we apply them? The
FAQ CLARIFIES this as they count.
So back to the reserves rule and how it functions with this information.
3a) Units that start the game in reserve are ignored for the purposes of which units may do so. Units that are deploying via Deathwing assault are not ignored for the purposes of
which units may do so. Again, this is subject to the interpretation of how a player chooses to apply 'when deploying forces'.
The last part of the
FAQ also is misleading until you actually apply it to what the rules actually say. 'keep in reserve at the start of battle'? If you truly believe that only 50% of your force can be in reserve, then this statement will shaft any and all hopes that
DWA could deploy an entire Terminator army. Unfortunately, such a rule still doesn't exist without a page reference, or an
FAQ.
So when we apply the Reserves rule. 'Players may choose to not deploy half their forces,
keeping them as reserves to arrive later'. The keyword in there is 'keeping'. Per the reserves rule, a
DA player is allowed to keep 50% of his force that is deploying during the Deploy forces step. As opposed to just saying 'They count toward how many units can be there'.
DWA terminators, per the
FAQ count toward which units may be kept in reserve by a player when deploying forces using the Reserves rule. IF the number of units deploying via
DWA has already exceeded the 50% allowance, then there are no options left for any remaining
DA units that 'may do so'. There is no provision in either the Reserves rule or the
DWA rule to force a player to drop back down to the 50% rule after they are already deployed there.
It does not in anyway, shape or form, imply that there is a restriction that only 50% of any unit that
counts toward the limit, must also be
subject to the limit. If you're still reading that 'All units that count toward the limit can't be placed in reserve cause it'll break the 50%' rule' as breaking apart the rule, then there first needs to exist a rule that states that they are inseparable. Until they become inseparable, any possible interpretation that splits these up, like
DWA with the
FAQ, is valid.
The BEST possible interpretation is that C:
DA players can, in fact have more than 50% of their army in reserve, just like any other army. Provided that all the units in reserve are either Flyers, Drop Pods, or units deploying via
DWA. If you want to put other units into reserve then you are permitted to provided that units deploying via
DWA, do not exceed 50% of remaining available units that need to deploy during the 'Deploy Forces' step.
