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2013/05/24 06:09:30
Subject: Soldier killed in Woolwich in a possible terrorist attack
I see the fan base of cricket going down hill...heck I figure two in six people would have cricket bats within arms reach....
Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
DE 6700
Harlequin 2500
RIP Muhammad Ali.
Jihadin, Scorched Earth 791. Leader of the Pork Eating Crusader. Alpha
2013/05/24 06:20:07
Subject: Re:Soldier killed in Woolwich in a possible terrorist attack
Bullockist wrote: why are people talking about this as a terrorist attack?
If anything it is a religious based murder. Admittedly the assailants behaviour after the assault was bizarre , I don't see why it is a terrorist attack . If it wasn't a muslim (or IRA; successor organisations included) who did it it wouldn't be even be regarded as anything but a murder. I think the hysteria, whilst great for the papers (and maybe for the politicians if they want to pass a few new laws) needs to be lowered. The only people i see causing terror after this murder by a couple of nutjobs are the media and the politicians.
The attackers made an attack in a particularly bloody way in full public view, and remained on the scene to give ideological statements invoking terror on the civilian population, calling for the overthrow of the government, and justifying their actions by reference to western military occupation of Islamic countries, which they stated they wanted to stop.
unmercifulconker wrote: Yeah, people just dont think or feel anymore, they would rather ensure a 'just' trial is carried out then to protect the public from further attacks.
Disgusting.
Yeah, so this is pretty much the perfect example of thinking 'if we're tougher and meaner then we can be safe'. But the problem is it is compeltely wrong, there's no retribution possible that will 'protect the public from further attacks'. If the police killed them, cut their heads off and left them on spikes outside of parliament it still won't stop the next donkey-cave who wants to do something like this.
They stayed on the scene, waiting for the police. You think their concern was for their own personal well being?
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
2013/05/24 07:31:32
Subject: Soldier killed in Woolwich in a possible terrorist attack
I want to address the idea that the Police "Shoot to Wound", I think several people have mentioned Knee-cappings or other nonsense.
The Police don't shoot to wound, they shoot for centre-of-mass e.g where the Organs are and where you have the largest target. Exceptions are when the Subject has body armour or is believe to have a suicide device, they will then shoot for the head .The Police shoot to Neutralise the threat (whether that results in death or wounding doesn't matter), there is no shoot to wound or shoot to kill Policy. It's a subtle but very important distinction.
Depending on where the suspect is hit on his chances (naturally the bullets will be spread across the centre of mass), they are heavily in the Suspects Favour, as they usually have Medical teams quickly available and get the suspects to Hospital well within "The Golden Hour".
Equally 9mm Parabellum isn't exactly a man-stopper (they were using 9mm MP5's and 9mm Glocks) it wounds but unless you hit them in the heart or the brain it's not a guaranteed killed and therefore the suspect will be wounded.
Video of take down (The whole thing happens in like 8 seconds!) NSFW - This is some serious Professionalism in a dangerous situation
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2013/05/24 07:38:14
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2013/05/24 07:46:28
Subject: Re:Soldier killed in Woolwich in a possible terrorist attack
Valion wrote: Man. Is that twenty minute response time accurate? That's insane.
To be fair to the Rozzers that was the Armed response team arriving and engaging the suspects. Unarmed units were on the scene within minutes and were managing the scene and keeping people away from the nut jobs. One ammes there is a plan for this sort of thing and it was enacted.
In either case I credit the police, there was an unavoidable killing but he suspects were prevented from further violence and contained until dealt with. Even more credit if this was done on the hoof.
How do you promote your Hobby? - Legoburner "I run some crappy wargaming website "
2013/05/24 07:46:35
Subject: Soldier killed in Woolwich in a possible terrorist attack
Equally 9mm Parabellum isn't exactly a man-stopper (they were using 9mm MP5's and 9mm Glocks) it wounds but unless you hit them in the heart or the brain it's not a guaranteed killed and therefore the suspect will be wounded.
Do British firearms officers use hollow point ammunition?
mwnciboo wrote: I want to address the idea that the Police "Shoot to Wound", I think several people have mentioned Knee-cappings or other nonsense.
The Police don't shoot to wound, they shoot for centre-of-mass e.g where the Organs are and where you have the largest target. Exceptions are when the Subject has body armour or is believe to have a suicide device, they will then shoot for the head .The Police shoot to Neutralise the threat (whether that results in death or wounding doesn't matter), there is no shoot to wound or shoot to kill Policy. It's a subtle but very important distinction.
Depending on where the suspect is hit on his chances (naturally the bullets will be spread across the centre of mass), they are heavily in the Suspects Favour, as they usually have Medical teams quickly available and get the suspects to Hospital well within "The Golden Hour".
Equally 9mm Parabellum isn't exactly a man-stopper (they were using 9mm MP5's and 9mm Glocks) it wounds but unless you hit them in the heart or the brain it's not a guaranteed killed and therefore the suspect will be wounded.
Video of take down (The whole thing happens in like 8 seconds!) NSFW - This is some serious Professionalism in a dangerous situation
At last a far more satisfactory clip, thanks for reposting that mwbc.... Good robust police work not a police state, just the service we want.
I await Millibands denouncing the whole event as avoidable.
How do you promote your Hobby? - Legoburner "I run some crappy wargaming website "
2013/05/24 07:54:37
Subject: Soldier killed in Woolwich in a possible terrorist attack
d-usa wrote: Terrorists can feth up every single attack, blow themselves up in the process, and never harm a fly.
But if you let yourself be terrorized and change your way of life because of their attacks, then they still win.
All these stupid responses to this attack, that is the sound of terrorists winning.
It is quite funny considering how much he professes to hate terrorists, Mr Hyena seems intent on supporting them, helping their goals along etc.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/05/24 07:54:49
Prestor Jon wrote: Because children don't have any legal rights until they're adults. A minor is the responsiblity of the parent and has no legal rights except through his/her legal guardian or parent.
2013/05/24 08:04:15
Subject: Soldier killed in Woolwich in a possible terrorist attack
Equally 9mm Parabellum isn't exactly a man-stopper (they were using 9mm MP5's and 9mm Glocks) it wounds but unless you hit them in the heart or the brain it's not a guaranteed killed and therefore the suspect will be wounded.
Do British firearms officers use hollow point ammunition?
Yes, they have used 9mm Hollowpoints since 2005 - The Jean Charles de Menezes case when he was shot Dead by Armed Officers on the Tube was (I believe) the first time it was fired by an Officer (I maybe wrong if Diplomatic protection or another / CO / SO unit used them prior to this, but it certainly wasn't acknowledged publically) . The fundamental premise remains he was Innocent and was killed due to mistaken Identity - The suspected Suicide Bomber was Hussain Osman. This is what happens, when bad intelligence, slack operational planning, Officers engaged in High Risk Operations and false assumptions are made - The whole situation spiraled out of control and was regrettable, the Armed Officers believed he was a suicide bomber and took action. It was not a killing for killings sake, they genuinely believed he was a threat.
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2013/05/24 09:39:21
Subject: Soldier killed in Woolwich in a possible terrorist attack
mwnciboo wrote: I want to address the idea that the Police "Shoot to Wound", I think several people have mentioned Knee-cappings or other nonsense.
Indeed, it's not standard police procedure in any department I've ever heard of in the United States to "shoot to wound" either. Either the situation requires lethal force, or it does not - there is no in-between. And frankly, the average policeman is such an awful shot that such a doctrine would actually endanger more lives than i saved.
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Flinty wrote: The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
2013/05/24 09:50:51
Subject: Soldier killed in Woolwich in a possible terrorist attack
mwnciboo wrote: I want to address the idea that the Police "Shoot to Wound", I think several people have mentioned Knee-cappings or other nonsense.
The Police don't shoot to wound, they shoot for centre-of-mass e.g where the Organs are and where you have the largest target. Exceptions are when the Subject has body armour or is believe to have a suicide device, they will then shoot for the head .The Police shoot to Neutralise the threat (whether that results in death or wounding doesn't matter), there is no shoot to wound or shoot to kill Policy. It's a subtle but very important distinction.
Depending on where the suspect is hit on his chances (naturally the bullets will be spread across the centre of mass), they are heavily in the Suspects Favour, as they usually have Medical teams quickly available and get the suspects to Hospital well within "The Golden Hour".
Equally 9mm Parabellum isn't exactly a man-stopper (they were using 9mm MP5's and 9mm Glocks) it wounds but unless you hit them in the heart or the brain it's not a guaranteed killed and therefore the suspect will be wounded.
Video of take down (The whole thing happens in like 8 seconds!) NSFW - This is some serious Professionalism in a dangerous situation
At last a far more satisfactory clip, thanks for reposting that mwbc.... Good robust police work not a police state, just the service we want.
I await Millibands denouncing the whole event as avoidable.
Thanks for the video. And yes i too await the inevitable denouncements from our goverment, most likely followed by the officers being charged because our goverments is so fethed up it will literally do that.
As it is i am shocked. People like these need to be put down permanently for the good of the public.
Free from GW's tyranny and the hobby is looking better for it
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2013/05/24 09:55:43
Subject: Soldier killed in Woolwich in a possible terrorist attack
If you shoot someone in the head, neck, shoulder, torso, pelvis or thighs, there is a significant chance of hitting a vital organ or major blood vessel and killing them.
To "shoot to wound" therefore implies aiming at the arm, which is often across the torso, or the leg, which is a thin and fast moving target.
Kilkrazy wrote: If you shoot someone in the head, neck, shoulder, torso, pelvis or thighs, there is a significant chance of hitting a vital organ or major blood vessel and killing them.
To "shoot to wound" therefore implies aiming at the arm, which is often across the torso, or the leg, which is a thin and fast moving target.
Everything I learned using Fallout VATS is a lie then.
Back to no scoping in COD I guess.
More seriously doesnt every service in every country train to hit the centre mass since that is a high percentage shot? even trained 'snipers'?
2013/05/24 10:09:23
Subject: Re:Soldier killed in Woolwich in a possible terrorist attack
In this case I would have shoot to wound just for the intel. You want the intel because you need to be sure they are acting ALONE and not part of a cell organization. Something we try to do while in combat.
Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
DE 6700
Harlequin 2500
RIP Muhammad Ali.
Jihadin, Scorched Earth 791. Leader of the Pork Eating Crusader. Alpha
2013/05/24 10:19:20
Subject: Soldier killed in Woolwich in a possible terrorist attack
Kilkrazy wrote: If you shoot someone in the head, neck, shoulder, torso, pelvis or thighs, there is a significant chance of hitting a vital organ or major blood vessel and killing them.
To "shoot to wound" therefore implies aiming at the arm, which is often across the torso, or the leg, which is a thin and fast moving target.
Everything I learned using Fallout VATS is a lie then.
Back to no scoping in COD I guess.
More seriously doesnt every service in every country train to hit the centre mass since that is a high percentage shot? even trained 'snipers'?
Yes, sniping in video games is much easier than IRL because the "bullet" does not follow a ballistic path, it works like a laser.
Pure Conjecture and speculation here, but the second suspect had what looked like a Pistol. Got hit several times, in the second group of shots, then falls to the ground, Officers approach, shouting put the weapon down.
We don't see this, but at a guess he swings the weapon around / doesn't obey. They fire a third group of shots.
I know the media say one of them is in a Serious Condition, I would speculate that is the 2nd Suspect as I think he has been hit at least 4 times.
The 1st Suspect took several rounds at the run, and you can see his legs twitching on the ground. He might be in a bad way too, but I would be very surprised if the Officers firing at the Second suspect hadn't landed several rounds in critical organs, given the proximity number of shots fired and the damage a Hollow Point does.
Pure speculation on my part, but I think it's a reasonable position. Time will tell...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/05/24 10:24:54
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2013/05/24 10:37:22
Subject: Soldier killed in Woolwich in a possible terrorist attack
I cant stand Cameron constantly saying we shouldnt bow to Terroism and we should go about our daily lives and we have all been brought closer together.
We are fighting each other over what is the right thing to do to them, scumbags are rioting with police, the men stationed in the barracks have even been told not to wear their unforms outside the barracks and new general fear amongst the public. Nice speech Cameron.
Fury from faith
Faith in fury
Numquam solus ambulabis
2013/05/24 12:30:35
Subject: Soldier killed in Woolwich in a possible terrorist attack
Anyone who does these crimes will be caught and punished. Literally 99.9% of all serious crime is solved these days, with DNA, CCTV and all the thousands of different methods and information available. Violent crime is relatively rare today compared with years ago, and that makes these crimes much more shocking.
The best way to deal with it, forget about it, move on, that is the best way to Honour the Fallen Soldier. Give the Terrorists the big F***-You, it changes nothing. They feed off fear, so deny them, defy them show contempt for them.
I get on the tube after 7/7 without a thought, I've got on Aeroplanes post 9/11 no Problem. It changes nothing, terrorist outrages are the occasional prices we have to pay to live in a free society it has ever been thus. It's random chance if you end up involved, You should never worry about things you cannot control, the same as I don't worry about being hit by a meteor.
Enjoy your life obey the law, and defy all that would seek to take your freedom and your life.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/05/24 12:41:14
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2013/05/24 12:54:33
Subject: Re:Soldier killed in Woolwich in a possible terrorist attack
unmercifulconker wrote: I cant stand Cameron constantly saying we shouldnt bow to Terroism and we should go about our daily lives and we have all been brought closer together.
We are fighting each other over what is the right thing to do to them, scumbags are rioting with police, the men stationed in the barracks have even been told not to wear their unforms outside the barracks and new general fear amongst the public. Nice speech Cameron.
Chill out for a while.
The suspects will be tried in accordance with the laws of the land.
Scumbags just need an excuse to riot, nothing new here.
British soldiers not wearing uniform outside of barracks is nothing new, and has been noted in this thread on a few occasions.
What did you expect Cameron to say?
2013/05/24 12:59:37
Subject: Re:Soldier killed in Woolwich in a possible terrorist attack
Why does the BBC do this? Giving publicity to preachers with extreme views? surely all this does is anger more people? Giving publicity to their views does nothing constructive.
Irrational/ emotive hatred against Islam is going to increase exponentially this year.
There a large number of Child Sex rings coming to Court, and the perpetrators are disproportionately, though not exclusively muslims.
The more of these stories come out the more it will colour the publics view. It's not right, but it is happening and we have to watch out for that "Kristallnacht" effect and how it will radicalise society.
We have to walk a tight rope here to stop using a single Racial or ethnic group as a Scape Goat. That being said there are some massive deep seated issues to be resolved.
It is true that these rings operate in all area's of society and ethnicity however it is much higher within certain ethnic communities than others, especially when you collate the numbers of incidents relative to the % size of the population they make up.
Things like this only serve to make the Extremists like the English Defence League, stronger.
It's up to us, the decent up-standing members of society to call for moderation and tolerance and the rule of law.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2013/05/24 13:27:15
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s sake, hate just breeds hate.