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Locked velocity is a stupid idea with a terrible implementation.

Not only does it seem silly that the actual result does practically nothing unless you move the bare minimum speed, it seems odd that skimmers going flat out are automatically wrecked when immobilized yet flyers are going faster and aren't wrecked.

I think I have a better idea for fliers. Instead of Locked Velocity roll scatter. If it scatters turn the flyer in the direction indicated by the arrow and move it 2d6 inches forward. If it ends this move over impassible terrain or another model the flyer is wrecked, unless it has hover mode then reduce the movement by the minimum to avoid the obstacle. If this move would take the flyer off the table, remove the model and treat it as destroyed. If the flyer evaded or moved flat out in its previous movement phase it is automatically wrecked. If a flyer survives this process treat it as an immobilized skimmer.

Fliers are at higher altitude and have more time to deal with the problem before they hit the ground and potentially rectify it. Plus, most fliers have the benefit of lifting surfaces that will continue to hold them in the air as long as they're moving forwards, whilst skimmers tend to get the majority of their lift from their engines.

Skimmers have the issue of being at about tree-top height at the absolute maximum, which means any loss of steerage is almost guaranteed to result in a crash even if they don't invert and plow into the ground.

As Furyou stated, there's a mitigating factor between flyer and skimmer, that being the ground. A skmmer, a few feet to a dozen above the ground, traveling at breakneck speed whilst sustaining damage to it's propulsion, steerage, and/or maneuvering instruments is going to plummet those few feet in a fraction of a second. A flyer, on the other hand, will have, if absolutely nothing else, more reaction time. In addition, a flyer, by its nature, will be traveling at a faster speed in a horizontal direction, and since an object in motion tends to stay in motion, we know that, only under the most extreme of conditions (say, rolling a 6 on your AP dice?) the flyer isn't going to nose-down into the ground. It might tailspin, it might veer off course, but the point is the pilot, system, whatever is going to react to the new impediment.

Fluffwise, it's to represent the pilot having to fight to keep the aircraft in the air. Say, it's taken some damage to one of it's engines, he has to put the others to maximum, and keep his velocity, to stay airborne. So imagine it's blazing smoke, swaying left and right as the pilot tries to keep it airborne.

I really don't care about the fluff, since it doesn't affect anything during gameplay it needs to be redone.

It does do something. It forces the flyer to go off the table and into ongoing reserves in most cases.

Just going out on a limb here and say you have either been mauled by a vendetta or hellturkey recently.

Also I enjoy the rule as long as it is my vendettas .

Yeah, locked velocity is huge. Don't know who you're playing with but having your flyer velocity locked when it moved full speed is a HUGE deal, you'll rarely ever be in a position to shoot what you want to shoot and you're almost guaranteed to fly off the board every other turn. Conversely being velocity locked while traveling minimum speed will usually mean you can't get out of range of whatever it is you're worried will kill you, nor will you be able to move far enough to hit that one target you really wanted to hit, etc.

I agree. The flyer rules are poorly done enough without them literally ignoring immobilized results. An immobilized result for a flier should mean it lost its engine or had a wing blown off and then was ended quickly in a fiery crash.

Having one of the penetrating hit results do nothing more than cause a glancing hit is very dumb.

Locked Velocity wasn't stupid... until it happens.

 Tarrasq wrote:
I really don't care about the fluff, since it doesn't affect anything during gameplay it needs to be redone.

You realise that the rules are written based on the fluff, right?

Heck, ignoring the fluff renders any claim of "silliness" as a reason for changing something moot and void.

Locked velocity makes some sense. More sense than it falling out of the sky. Helicopters autorotate down. Planes can glide. Losing a wing is represented by the Destroyed result.

 Ailaros wrote:
Having one of the penetrating hit results do nothing more than cause a glancing hit is very dumb.

This is a joke, right? Having your movement distance set to a fixed 36" and losing the ability to hover is a huge drawback. A gunship flyer that now has a hard time getting into position to shoot or a transport flyer that can no longer hover to deploy its passengers is probably suffering more than an immobilized tank that can just sit and shoot or an immobilized transport that can disembark its passengers instead of losing them entirely.

Except you aren't locked to 36", you are locked to >18". You are locked to cruising speed or combat speed not the exact distance you moved the turn before.

It would be more realistic if the flyer didn't come back from reserves.

So if you look at it from a fluff perspective getting locked at cruising speed means you can fly normally despite your engines being shot with the small exception of going your minimum flight velocity, for the length of a battle.

Right, removing the fliers ability to turn... like, say, an immobilized vehicle, would also be a better way to go than the current rules.

 Tarrasq wrote:
Except you aren't locked to 36", you are locked to >18". You are locked to cruising speed or combat speed not the exact distance you moved the turn before.

Nope. Check the FAQ, it's a fixed 36".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ailaros wrote:
Right, removing the fliers ability to turn... like, say, an immobilized vehicle, would also be a better way to go than the current rules.

Which would be much harsher than for vehicles, since most flyers have hull-mounted weapons while most vehicles have 360* turrets. Taking an immobilized result on a vehicle is often just a minor annoyance, while removing the ability to turn a flyer at all would effectively stop it from contributing anything for the rest of the game.

I think the flier rules are great apart from the death rays weapon supposedly being able to fire a Beam weapon backwards out of a 45 degree forward facing fixed weapon. Or any where out of its 45 degree LOS for that matter.

But the Locked velocity works well. If i get a flier locked on velocity I nearly always just count it as being Dead in the water. On my helldrakes I can no longer vector strike, And if you run a Bale flamer. It is pretty much useless when you have to move 36". as the bale flamer has to be lined up. My razorwings and voidravens. are about the only fliers I have that are any use when on locked velocity. Only because they can still fire missiles and i have yet not found a rule that states the voidraven cant drop mines at locked velocity (feel free to correct that though)

 Tarrasq wrote:
I really don't care about the fluff, since it doesn't affect anything during gameplay it needs to be redone.

Yes, rewrite the laws of verisimilitude to conform to gameplay. This is totally reasonable.

cerbrus2 wrote:
I think the flier rules are great apart from the death rays weapon supposedly being able to fire a Beam weapon backwards out of a 45 degree forward facing fixed weapon. Or any where out of its 45 degree LOS for that matter.

But the Locked velocity works well. If i get a flier locked on velocity I nearly always just count it as being Dead in the water. On my helldrakes I can no longer vector strike, And if you run a Bale flamer. It is pretty much useless when you have to move 36". as the bale flamer has to be lined up. My razorwings and voidravens. are about the only fliers I have that are any use when on locked velocity. Only because they can still fire missiles and i have yet not found a rule that states the voidraven cant drop mines at locked velocity (feel free to correct that though)

Uh, the Baleflamer is a Torrent weapon on a turret, how is it hard to line up?

Also, the thing to remember about the Death Ray is that it doesn't draw a thin line across the ground. It's a thin beam that turns into a line effect as it fires from a moving aircraft. That's why it has random length - if a rogue shot comes too close to the Doom Scythe, it has to cut the attack run short to jink out of the way.

Really, all fliers should be able to fire their weapons at things they've flown over, rather than the Doom Scythe being special like that.

If a flier were vector locked, rather than velocity locked, you could still fly them off the board and then fly them back on at whatever angle you want. You'd just have to use immobilized aircraft in strafing runs like real aircraft, rather than the turn-on-a-dime nonsensicalness that fliers currently have.

Plus, an immobilized result would cause an actual change in the flier's ability to move, which is the entire point of an immobilized result.

Immobilize for a flier is typically synonymous with crashing.

 Ailaros wrote:
Plus, an immobilized result would cause an actual change in the flier's ability to move, which is the entire point of an immobilized result.

Sigh. I guess you're just going to completely ignore the part where I explained how being locked at a fixed 36" movement distance every turn DOES cripple your ability to move?

 Peregrine wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
Plus, an immobilized result would cause an actual change in the flier's ability to move, which is the entire point of an immobilized result.

Sigh. I guess you're just going to completely ignore the part where I explained how being locked at a fixed 36" movement distance every turn DOES cripple your ability to move?

Not only that but flyers with Vector Dancer become not nearly as gimped by the 36" movement lock.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
That is the only situation where I can see it being not as hindering as intended, which makes Vector Dancer more attractive.

Which I fully support.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Tarrasq wrote:
Except you aren't locked to 36", you are locked to >18". You are locked to cruising speed or combat speed not the exact distance you moved the turn before.

Nope. Check the FAQ, it's a fixed 36".

It really should be locked at the speed you moved in the previous movement phase but I can see the merit of GW keeping it simple by the 36" rule for everybody when velocity is locked on Fliers.

 Zathras wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Tarrasq wrote:
Except you aren't locked to 36", you are locked to >18". You are locked to cruising speed or combat speed not the exact distance you moved the turn before.

Nope. Check the FAQ, it's a fixed 36".

It really should be locked at the speed you moved in the previous movement phase but I can see the merit of GW keeping it simple by the 36" rule for everybody when velocity is locked on Fliers.

Yeah, but who's going to keep track of exactly how far the flyer moves each turn in case it gets Locked Velocity?

"lets see, I think I moved 21.5" last turn. or was that the turn before that?"

 Ailaros wrote:
If a flier were vector locked, rather than velocity locked, you could still fly them off the board and then fly them back on at whatever angle you want. You'd just have to use immobilized aircraft in strafing runs like real aircraft, rather than the turn-on-a-dime nonsensicalness that fliers currently have.

Plus, an immobilized result would cause an actual change in the flier's ability to move, which is the entire point of an immobilized result.

The rules for the flyers have to be OP to the point of being broken GW is trying to sell model not make a balanced table top game or they would not have release 6th ed. If they wanted flyers to be a fair they would all be 400pts or be made of paper mache like the Ork flyer

Flyers are not OP, certain flyers are OP. The Flyer mechanic itself is perfectly fine. Whats not fine is Vendettas being 60+ pts undercosted.

I totally agree on that there needs to be some sort of negative for fliers sometimes. Any FMC can take a lascannon to the face if you shine a flashlight in it's eyes, but a rusty, taped together ork jet just loses its throttle control if you hit it with an entire battery of AA guns? Something needs to be done to close the disparity between them. Too busy/lacking imagination to try to figure this one out. GW kind of derped on this one. GL on everyone here coming to a consensus, and I truly hope you can all come to a supercool consensus that keeps fliers competitive, but having serious repercussions if they get hit.

A few forum members and I are working on a new rulebook. Here are the flyer changes we're currently looking at: (note that a lot of other things are changing too)
Hover (alternate movement type)
-No movement, may disembark units. Hit on normal BS.
-May be fired at by any ground unit. No range reduction.
-May fire anything at low altitude units or ground units, and missiles at high altitude units.

Low Altitude
-Forced movement 18-30" and hit using normal BS -2 (min BS 1).
-May be fired at by any ground unit. 12" range reduction on units without Skyfire.
-May fire anything at low altitude units or ground units, and missiles at high altitude units.

High Altitude
-Forced movement 24-48" and hit on a 6+.
-May be fired at by ground units with the Skyfire special rule. 12" range reduction.
-May fire anything at high altitude units, missiles at low altitude units, and bombs at ground units.
-Provides vision for entire board for the purposes of Barrage weapons.

-Flyers may go up or down a single level every turn (alternate movement - low altitude - high altitude).
-Flyers may charge other flyers regardless of altitude. Maximum Charge range is equal to the minimum forced movement value, and they may charge any unit within the front 180 degree arc.
-May make a single 90 degree turn prior to moving, but that is the only turning they may do.
-May not be charged by any model that is not flying.
-May only fire in the front 90 degree arc.
-All terrain is ignored for movement and receiving cover (excluding being in area terrain).
-Has the “Golden BB” special rule:
---After suffering a wound (or glancing/penetrating hit), the model must make a save on a 3+
-----If passed, they remain in the air.
-----If failed, the model suffers an additional wound (or hull point) and must immediately switch to a different movement type. If the model has no other movement type, they are destroyed. Place a large blast template 9” in front of the model and roll the scatter die, moving the template 2D6” in the direction of the scatter die (a “hit” on the scatter die does nothing.)


I think I managed to translate everything back to normal 40k, let me know if anything doesn't make sense. The system could be simplified further for current 40k house rules, but some of the things that sound complicated actually work very well in the new rulebook.

 Peregrine wrote:
a transport flyer that can no longer hover to deploy its passengers

The Vendetta laughs at your need to stop flying to drop off your passengers.

So does the Stormraven, of course for 250 points it better have a plan B.

Wait a sec... Is there a Flyer Transport that can't drop its passengers if it doesn't Hover?