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There are 2 fire points listed for a Rhino. Are these in addition to the possible weapon mounts on the Rhino? If you take the storm bolter upgrade would passengers inside only then have 1 fire point? Or if you take the missile & the storm bolter you get no fire points for the passengers? If the fire points are NOT used up by the weapon upgrades, then how is line of sight determined, or is it jus assumed the fire points can draw line of sight from anywhere on the rhino? I always kind of thought the fire points were represented by the 2 hatches on the model, so that is why I ask the questions about them.

Which Codex are you using?
A quick glance at C:SM, C:GK and C:CSM and all three say "two models can fire from the top hatch". That would be the large double-doors on top. You don't put any weapons on those.

Fire point on a rhino is the LARGE top hatch, not the two smaller round ones.

Whatever guns are on those cupola mounts has no effect on how many passengers can shoot out of the Rhino.

 chromedog wrote:
Fire point on a rhino is the LARGE top hatch, not the two smaller round ones.

Whatever guns are on those cupola mounts has no effect on how many passengers can shoot out of the Rhino.

Ok that makes sense to me. So the 2 passenger fire points are in ADDITION to the possible vehicle mounted weapons the Rhino can have.

Thanks for the clarification.

 chromedog wrote:
Fire point on a rhino is the LARGE top hatch, not the two smaller round ones.

Whatever guns are on those cupola mounts has no effect on how many passengers can shoot out of the Rhino.

The rules do not define which "Top Hatch" they are talking about.

It could be any of the 3 top hatches on the Rhino as the fire point. (Most play it as the large hatch in the back, but some play it as any top hatch).

Yay This thread again.

The top hatch in quewtion for the passengers to fure from is the large double door hatch. The front hatches are for the crew-served weapons, storm bolters and h-k missiles.

Who seriously has problems noodling this out? In an actual game, I would seriously have issues with someone who made this an arguable point.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 chromedog wrote:
Fire point on a rhino is the LARGE top hatch, not the two smaller round ones.

Whatever guns are on those cupola mounts has no effect on how many passengers can shoot out of the Rhino.

The rules do not define which "Top Hatch" they are talking about.

It could be any of the 3 top hatches on the Rhino as the fire point. (Most play it as the large hatch in the back, but some play it as any top hatch).

IIRC only one is listed as a hatch, the other 2 are listed as Copulas? (spelling)

Cupola. Close enough, but yes. They are the little turrets for crew weapons.

I forget which book (one of the older books, third book of the astronomicon maybe?) there is a picture of a Rhino that clearly labels the back hatch as the top hatch.

A copula is a hatch.

 Happyjew wrote:
I forget which book (one of the older books, third book of the astronomicon maybe?) there is a picture of a Rhino that clearly labels the back hatch as the top hatch.

It was in the old 'Wargear' book.

 DeathReaper wrote:
A copula is a hatch.

Except GW defined it as having 2 copulas and 1 top hatch in a pic a long long time ago. Which is still the most recent IIRC.

If the pic is older and well circulated, it's no wonder that the issue keeps coming up. I've never seen it, and it took one of these threads on dakka to resolve it for me. I think this is a very easy issue to get mixed up on, and it's one of those questions I don't mind answering over and over again. I think it's easy for someone to look at the model and not be sure where the 'top hatch' is.

Everyone is right, of course, in that the big one at the back is the firing hatch, and the two little manhole cover ones are the weapon mounts.

So, rock on, Loborocket! Hope that helps!

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
A copula is a hatch.

Except GW defined it as having 2 copulas and 1 top hatch in a pic a long long time ago. Which is still the most recent IIRC.

More recent than the Codex CSM which says that a Rhino has 1 fire point, and that is the top hatch that two models can fire from?

Or more recent than the BA codex, which says the same thing?

I have never seen the book in question, what year was it published, what is it called, and does GW still sell it on their website?

If it is sold on their website I need to pick it up.

Chapter Approved: Second Book of the Astronomicon (2001), pg 72.

The picture labels the large hatch as a Fire Point and has this to say about Fire Points:

The Rhino has a large hatch in its hull roof which can be used by up to two passengers as a fire point.

Pic from the book attached:

From the looks of it that is an old book, as that is not even what my Rhino's look like.

a book circa 2001 is not the most current rules, therefore has no bearing as the model no longer looks like that.

The new model has 3 top hatches (2 if you have a Storm Bolter).

As I said it is from Chapter Approved: Second Book of the Astronomicon (2001). Some of the information is outdated, but I have yet to see anything that overrides the Fire Point/Access Points.

The one in the pic has 3 hatches - 1 large (labeled as Fire Point) and 2 cupolas (labeled as Armament). The 2 small ones might be missed as the hatches are closed.

That is not even what my Rhino's look like, so that pic can not even be applied to my vehicles.

Surely that book is not the most current with the rules for fire points. The SM and BA codexed are newer.

And what do the SM/BA codexes say about a Rhino's FP?

I know the Razorback has no FPs and the only difference is that the large hatch is replaced with a weapon.

 DeathReaper wrote:
The new model has 3 top hatches (2 if you have a Storm Bolter).

It has two hatches, and one equipment mount.

And yes, you can make a RAW argument that the 'top hatch' is not clearly defined... but nothing has changed since the last time this topic came up, and the vast majority of players are still going to take the top hatch that two of the passengers fire out of as being the one over the passenger compartment that can conceivably have two models firing out of it, rather than the single man cupola over the crew section.

 insaniak wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
The new model has 3 top hatches (2 if you have a Storm Bolter).

It has two hatches, and one equipment mount.

And yes, you can make a RAW argument that the 'top hatch' is not clearly defined... but nothing has changed since the last time this topic came up, and the vast majority of players are still going to take the top hatch that two of the passengers fire out of as being the one over the passenger compartment that can conceivably have two models firing out of it, rather than the single man cupola over the crew section.

Yes 2 top hatches if you have a storm bolter. 3 if you do not (I thought the Chaos Rhino did not come with a weapon, that may have changed).

 Happyjew wrote:
And what do the SM/BA codexes say about a Rhino's FP?

That two models can fire out of the Rhino's Top Hatch. of which it has 2.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Yes 2 top hatches if you have a storm bolter. 3 if you do not

Just curious, are you talking from a completely RAW perspective, for you believe passengers should be able to fire from the cupolas? (HIWPI)

 Happyjew wrote:
Pic from the book attached:

Not even because it has rules relevance, but I wish they still did tank profiles like this. I love reading about specifications on armoured vehicles.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Yes 2 top hatches if you have a storm bolter. 3 if you do not

It's still only two if you don't take the storm bolter.

The two front holes take a cupola on one side and an equipment mount point on the other. Whether or not you put something on that mounting point (the storm bolter, or the searchlight, or the HK missile, or something else entirely) or nothign at all, it's still not a hatch.

 grendel083 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Yes 2 top hatches if you have a storm bolter. 3 if you do not

Just curious, are you talking from a completely RAW perspective, for you believe passengers should be able to fire from the cupolas? (HIWPI)

RAW, as the rules state Top Hatch.

 insaniak wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Yes 2 top hatches if you have a storm bolter. 3 if you do not

It's still only two if you don't take the storm bolter.

The two front holes take a cupola on one side and an equipment mount point on the other. Whether or not you put something on that mounting point (the storm bolter, or the searchlight, or the HK missile, or something else entirely) or nothign at all, it's still not a hatch.

I thought there were two hatches on the front of the Rhino, like in this pic:

No, that rhino is assembled incorrectly. You normally only have one cupola on the front. From memory, you have to cut at least one of them to fit two side by side like that.

 insaniak wrote:
No, that rhino is assembled incorrectly. You normally only have one cupola on the front. From memory, you have to cut at least one of them to fit two side by side like that.

Okay, weird.

So there are only 2 hatches on top of the rhino then.

 insaniak wrote:
No, that rhino is assembled incorrectly. You normally only have one cupola on the front. From memory, you have to cut at least one of them to fit two side by side like that.

I just slapped another Rhino together last night, I can confirm that you need to cut one of the cupolas down to get them both on there.

The one on the left in the picture is visibly cut. I can't tell from this angle whether the one on the right is as well.