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From a sightly more recent Chapter-Approved (Third book of the Astronomican 2003):

Still older than the Codex's that Reaper thinks takes precedence, but when people say that the Fire Point is the big hatch, this is the image they are thinking of.
I'm not saying that GW wouldn't change where the fire point is, but I've seen nothing to indicate that they have changed it either.

I'm not saying that the rules presented in the Second (and Third) Book(s) of the Astronomicon take precedence over the newer codex. I'm saying that GW established where the Fire Point is on the Rhino and has not published anything to override that.

Yeah, given the wording hasn't changed significantly over the years, the Chapter Approved pic is a clarification as to just what they mean by 'top hatch'.

Unfortunately not everyone has access to the Chapter Approved pic (Plus the pic is from 2003 plus it is outdated), so you may get people wondering what the top hatch is. By the RAW the fire point could be either of the two top hatches so the people that say the top hatch is in the front are not incorrect as far as the RAW goes.

The Intent seems to be the back hatch, but RAW it could be either.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Unfortunately not everyone has access to the Chapter Approved pic (Plus the pic is from 2003 plus it is outdated), so you may get people wondering what the top hatch is.

Luckily for them, there are threads like this one to explain it to them.

 DeathReaper wrote:
(Plus the pic is from 2003 plus it is outdated).

Not really outdated, as there is no need for a newer one. As such this is the most recent.

and then of course there's the SoB rhino which only has 1 single cupola with a dome over it and the large square hatch in back becomes a small round hatch.

and the codex says:
Fire Points: Two models may fire out of the Rhino's top hatch.

...implying only 1. However, this thread seems silly.

. . . It says the Rhino has 1 firing point, and almost everybody says that it's the largest hatch, which opens, and has the crew compartment in it, with which 2 space marines could stand up in and fire out from the top. Not the one containing the 2 fething pilots/gunner + pilot, where they would be standing on top of one another to fire a weapon out of. Also not that the cupola has has a Storm Bolter mounted on it (it has to, by the rules), so how could that even conceivably be used as a firing point?? To be fair, this is just rules lawyering, almost everybody but the OP says it's the back hatch.. Just stop arguing, and accept it, anyway, it's not like 2 shots from a boltgun are going to cost you the entire game... e_e

 BrotherOfBone wrote:
Also not that the cupola has has a Storm Bolter mounted on it (it has to, by the rules),

This is not actually true.

It varies a little from codex to codex, but at least in the newer ones, the rhino comes standard with a storm bolter, which is mounted on the same mounting used by the hunter killer missile, and goes on the mounting plate beside the cupola. You can also take the optional pintle-mounted storm bolter from the Rhino's Options, and that one goes on the cupola.

However, rules wise, there is no difference between the two mountings, and some older codexes had the rhino's standard weapon as a pintle mount as well, so exactly how the weapons are attached varies from player to player and tends to not be a big deal.

...anyway, it's not like 2 shots from a boltgun are going to cost you the entire game... e_e

You're assuming that the passengers are firing boltguns...

 insaniak wrote:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:
Also not that the cupola has has a Storm Bolter mounted on it (it has to, by the rules),

This is not actually true.

It varies a little from codex to codex, but at least in the newer ones, the rhino comes standard with a storm bolter, which is mounted on the same mounting used by the hunter killer missile, and goes on the mounting plate beside the cupola. You can also take the optional pintle-mounted storm bolter from the Rhino's Options, and that one goes on the cupola.

However, rules wise, there is no difference between the two mountings, and some older codexes had the rhino's standard weapon as a pintle mount as well, so exactly how the weapons are attached varies from player to player and tends to not be a big deal.

...anyway, it's not like 2 shots from a boltgun are going to cost you the entire game... e_e

You're assuming that the passengers are firing boltguns...

What else are you going to have in a Rhino? Sternguard? Nah.. Put those in a DP... Tactical Marines with boltguns? Of course :S Unless we're talking about a meltagun here, and if you're within 6" range of a vehicle you want to kill with a Rhino, why haven't you just disembarked anyway..?

Tacticals will also have plasma, or heavy weapons. You could also have a squad of Devastators in there, who jumped aboard because they were out of range and needed to get off that last turn snap shot to clear an objective.


Although, for what it's worth, I have had games where victory hinged on that one final bolter shot...

Or Purifiers in a Rhino, throwing those Psycannons shots out.

 insaniak wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Unfortunately not everyone has access to the Chapter Approved pic (Plus the pic is from 2003 plus it is outdated), so you may get people wondering what the top hatch is.

Luckily for them, there are threads like this one to explain it to them.

Not everyone has an account on Dakka dakka either...

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
(Plus the pic is from 2003 plus it is outdated).

Not really outdated, as there is no need for a newer one. As such this is the most recent.

The BA, and SM codexes are more recent than that book that was printed in 2003, so they take precedence.

 DeathReaper wrote:
The BA, and SM codexes are more recent than that book that was printed in 2003, so they take precedence.

Except that they use the same terminology, "top hatch and "1 fire point that can be used by 2 passengers", they're not conflicting, or overwriting each other, they are in agreement.

Why doesn't a Razorback get a fire point? But an Immolator does? - because the razor sacrifices the hatch whilst the Immo sacrifices the cupola.
Why say 1 fire point instead of 2? (Can anyone tell me what the fire points are on a Chimera? Does it say six or something?)

{Edit} Ok, perhaps not the same terminology, my DA Codex doesn't number the fire points, it just says "Two models can fire"


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ok, so ignore my faff above about it being 1 fire point. I don't have the SM or BA codexes, would someone mind posting what they say about fire points so I can better understand where Reaper is coming from?

Its a typical "talk about before the game begins" thing. Ive got a list of stuff i tend to ask people how they play it before the game. This is one of them. I declare the big hatch as my rhino hatches before games simply because i dont want an argument when firing a melta or plasma out of it regarding range (and i use the chapter approved pic as a reference). I'm happy with every interpretation as long as its declared before the game and used consitently throughout the game.

Ive met people that think its the slots in the front plates of the old model. Which would make a huge difference since it couldnt have 360 fire arc from there.

Rhino's have a fire point, razorbacks don't. That points to the large top hatch being the fire point as razorbacks can have stormbolters and hk missiles added which would use the forward cupolas like the rhino.

Quanar wrote:
Why doesn't a Razorback get a fire point? But an Immolator does?

While the immolator does sacrifice the cupola and still has a small circular hatch, it doesn't have any fire points.

 deviantduck wrote:
While the immolator does sacrifice the cupola and still has a small circular hatch, it doesn't have any fire points.

Ah, you are quite right, just checked the WD Codex. Seems they've lost it in edition changes. That undermines my argument a smidge

 DeathReaper wrote:
A copula is a hatch.

Yep. But no one I know plays that as the fire point. But I give you points for RAW.

Technically, a cupola is a cupola. A cupola may have a hatch on it, but it is not, in and of itself, a hatch.

If you want to talk about the Rhino model, there is only one top hatch that opens to the passenger compartment and the note on Firing Points specifically mentions "passengers" firing from the top hatch firing point. There is only one top hatch that they have access to and thus there is only one they could possible fire from.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Not everyone has an account on Dakka dakka either...

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
(Plus the pic is from 2003 plus it is outdated).

Not really outdated, as there is no need for a newer one. As such this is the most recent.

The BA, and SM codexes are more recent than that book that was printed in 2003, so they take precedence.

The newer codexes say , under fire points, that they fire out of the top hatch. Of which a rhino has 2...

helotaxi wrote:
Technically, a cupola is a cupola. A cupola may have a hatch on it, but it is not, in and of itself, a hatch.

Cupolas can have hatches, the cupolas on a Rhino have hatches.

If you want to talk about the Rhino model, there is only one top hatch that opens to the passenger compartment and the note on Firing Points specifically mentions "passengers" firing from the top hatch firing point.

What does the passenger compartment have to do with the RAW?

There is only one top hatch that they have access to and thus there is only one they could possible fire from.

Fluff is not rules.

 DeathReaper wrote:

There is only one top hatch that they have access to and thus there is only one they could possible fire from.

Fluff is not rules.

In this case, though, it effectively is.

The vast majority of players play this the way it is very clearly intended. You can argue about RAW until you're blue in the face, and that's not going to change.

Sure the majority play it as the rear hatch, but that does not mean that the rear hatch is the only "Top Hatch" So RAW there is a case to use either.

you have to cut the one on the left as you are looking at the Rhino to get a wepon mount in. But your troops fire from the top hatch over the TROOP compartment not the two spot over the CREW compartment. the same as SIX models can fors out of the Chimeria via One hatch.

 DeathReaper wrote:
The newer codexes say , under fire points, that they fire out of the top hatch. Of which a rhino has 2...

helotaxi wrote:
Technically, a cupola is a cupola. A cupola may have a hatch on it, but it is not, in and of itself, a hatch.

Cupolas can have hatches, the cupolas on a Rhino have hatches.

If you want to talk about the Rhino model, there is only one top hatch that opens to the passenger compartment and the note on Firing Points specifically mentions "passengers" firing from the top hatch firing point.

What does the passenger compartment have to do with the RAW?

How about you read what I wrote and what the RAW that you are arguing so fervently and pointlessly about actually say? That will answer your own question here.

There is only one top hatch that they have access to and thus there is only one they could possible fire from.

Fluff is not rules.

The RULES not the fluff say that the passengers are firing. The model only has one top hatch in the passenger compartment. Fluff has nothing to do with it.

How is this still an issue? Thi has been asked and answered. Is anyone actually playing it this way?

helotaxi wrote:
The model only has one top hatch in the passenger compartment. Fluff has nothing to do with it.

The underlined is fluff.

The "passenger compartment" has nothing to do with the actual rules at all.

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
How is this still an issue? Thi has been asked and answered. Is anyone actually playing it this way?

I wondered this too. I started the thread because I was not sure if getting a weapon upgrade (storm bolter or HK missile ) took up a fire point on the rhino. The first or 2nd answer made that clear to me.

It's just one of those little 'hole in the rules' things that some people like to argue about, that will rarely if ever actually come up at the table.

I think all of the usual arguments have been made by this point, and the original question was well and truly answered, so we can probably move on.