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 mjl7atlas wrote:

 Kain wrote:
Given that the Tyranids are gearing to invade Baal, we may just see them fight.

Where is this inferred?

Codex: Blood Angels IIRC.

So, new fight:
Abaddon versus Draigo!

Not even a contest.. Abaddon - all day everyday. Between the Talon of Horus & Drachnyen, Draigo doesn't even come close.

~Vryce

Haha, yeah right.

I'm onto you shrike. It can't be a coincidence that every single fight thus far has involved a Wardian character.

People are just going to vote against the Ward-penned characters because of the stigma against Ward.

On topic, Draigo crushes Abaddon, the Swarmlord, and Ghazghkuull at the same time in the fluff. No mortal character in the setting comes close to his accomplishments.

Easily defeating Mortarion and his honor guard, killing a Bloodthirster in the Warp with his bare hands before giving it a true death, burning down the Garden of Nurgle with Psyflame, smashing the Inevitable Fortress to ruin with psychic might after solving the Infinite Labyrinth.

Draigo easy, bias is the only thing that would make anyone say otherwise.

Or the fact that draigo is just sitting in a dream created by tzeentch, being raped daily by slanesh is new and interesting ways.

I'd swear kelly hinted at that in the new daemons dex, just for gits and shiggles.

Also, its true.

Further, abbadon is trained against everything and has better weapons, draigo is just a. Monster against daemons, and would have a hefty disadvantage from the get-go.

Nobody_Holme wrote:
Or the fact that draigo is just sitting in a dream created by tzeentch, being raped daily by slanesh is new and interesting ways.

No he isn't.

I'd swear kelly hinted at that in the new daemons dex, just for gits and shiggles.

Look at the artwork. The Space Marine in that story is not in Tactical Dreadnought Armour.

Also, its true.

What is true?

Further, abbadon is trained against everything and has better weapons, draigo is just a. Monster against daemons, and would have a hefty disadvantage from the get-go.

Well let's see... Draigo has an advantage against Daemons, Abaddon has a Daemon Sword.

Oh my.

This is ignoring the fact that Draigo had the physical strength to push a Primarch onto his back and hold him there, or the martial might to kill a Bloodthirster bare-handed, or the psychic talent to devastate huge structures in the Warp.

Draigo wins and easily. You can not resist my logic.

And then ALL his attacks bounce of Abaddon's 2+ save, is that not right?

Think about Draigo achievements.
Best daemon fighter in a chapter of super daemon fighters I good at killing....daemons(!)
He Burned down a forest with fire...which grew back the next day.
Smashed a part of the inevitable fortress, which again grew back next day and solving the Labyrinth, the main defence is using memories and hopes to stop you. Draigo doesn't have any memories and has no hopes other then killing daemons, that's as much of an accomplishment as completing a rubric cube with the instructions in front of you.

Yeah, not great when you think of it like that. Not to mention its heavily implied he is now slaanesh's Bitch so in the end, Its all a joke because Draigo isn't AP 2.

P.S. Can we do Lilith vs. Kharn next, I wonder what people will think of that.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Draigo easy, bias is the only thing that would make anyone say otherwise.

That, or an allergic reaction to horrible writing. I like the creativity Matt Ward brings to the rules, but he seriously needs to get someone else to write his fluff pieces.

That said, Draigo may be the very best of the Grey Knights - and by extension the very best that the Imperium has to offer - but Abaddon is still Abaddon.

Void__Dragon wrote:I'm onto you shrike. It can't be a coincidence that every single fight thus far has involved a Wardian character.

Genuinely is, I just pick out random pairings which seem (to my relatively limited knowledge of them) fairly even, and ATM I'm starting with the more powerful characters... It's just Ward's always the guy to make those characters, is all

Void__Dragon wrote:People are just going to vote against the Ward-penned characters because of the stigma against Ward.

Ghazghkull has drawn against Calgar, and the swarmlord's voters had some pretty good reasons for winning.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
And then ALL his attacks bounce of Abaddon's 2+ save, is that not right?

This is a fluff comparison, not a gameplay comparison.

Think about Draigo achievements.
Best daemon fighter in a chapter of super daemon fighters I good at killing....daemons(!)

This non-sequiter always makes its way into Grey Knight debates, but it is inaccurate, They are particularly capable at slaying Daemons, yes, but Daemon Primarchs like Angron have shown themselves to be functionally immune to the Aigis. It required many Grey Knights combining their powers to wound him enough to banish him. Draigo defeated Mortarion alone and unaided, and more importantly, he physically overpowered him. That makes Draigo physically many times stronger than Abaddon.

He Burned down a forest with fire...which grew back the next day.

No it didn't.

"He unleashed sanctified fire amongst the writhing jungle of Nurgle's Domain, [b]and for a long time the gusting Warp-winds carried only a charcoal stench and the screaming of daemonic vegetation."
- Grey Knight codex, page 39

Smashed a part of the inevitable fortress, which again grew back next day

Prove it grew back in a day.

Nevertheless, smashing the Inevitable City is frankly the only feat Draigo needs to prove he kills Abaddon. Who has not shown any particular defense to psychic powers of that magnitude.

and solving the Labyrinth, the main defence is using memories and hopes to stop you. Draigo doesn't have any memories

Yes he does, don't be silly. He doesn't have any memory of his life before being a Grey Knight. That is like ten years out of hundreds.

and has no hopes other then killing daemons, that's as much of an accomplishment as completing a rubric cube with the instructions in front of you.

Interesting, one would assume he would hope to be able to leave the Warp.

Yeah, not great when you think of it like that. Not to mention its heavily implied he is now slaanesh's Bitch so in the end, Its all a joke because Draigo isn't AP 2.

Indeed, it isn't great when you ignore or lie about the fluff to try and prove your point.

It is not implied he is Slaanesh's bitch, I've already disproved that.

Draigo being AP3 is the result of an edition change, which is nice, but woefully irrelevant.

Anyway, I think I've won this fight. Draigo wins.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tgjensen wrote:

That, or an allergic reaction to horrible writing. I like the creativity Matt Ward brings to the rules, but he seriously needs to get someone else to write his fluff pieces.

That said, Draigo may be the very best of the Grey Knights - and by extension the very best that the Imperium has to offer - but Abaddon is still Abaddon.

It is horrible writing, which is why he is that powerful.

Abaddon is not that tough. I have no idea where people get this perception that he is some insanely powerful uber and unstoppable badass in the fluff.

He's had like one fight after the Heresy. Against Eldrad, in melee. That he lost.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Abaddon is not that tough. I have no idea where people get this perception that he is some insanely powerful uber and unstoppable badass in the fluff.

He's had like one fight after the Heresy. Against Eldrad, in melee. That he lost.

I've not read much on Abaddon, but he has lived over 10 millennia of being the largest threat to the imperium, surviving that long must take some doing (even if most of it was spent in the warp).

Plus, I think the 13 black crusades and the gothic war count as fights.

Oh sure, he is a pretty powerful combatant by Marine standards, but he is being elevated onto some pedestal of unbeatability in this thread for no reason I can fathom.

Eldrad kicked his ass, and didn't need psychic powers to do it.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Oh sure, he is a pretty powerful combatant by Marine standards, but he is being elevated onto some pedestal of unbeatability in this thread for no reason I can fathom.

Eldrad kicked his ass, and didn't need psychic powers to do it.

Well, I don't think he's a god or anything, but he is (AFAIK) one of the oldest space marines alive, and the biggest threat to the imperium to date. I thought him facing Ward's chaos-killing wet dream would be an interesting match. (For the record, I have no idea who I think would win)

 shrike wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Abaddon is not that tough. I have no idea where people get this perception that he is some insanely powerful uber and unstoppable badass in the fluff.

He's had like one fight after the Heresy. Against Eldrad, in melee. That he lost.

I've not read much on Abaddon, but he has lived over 10 millennia of being the largest threat to the imperium, surviving that long must take some doing (even if most of it was spent in the warp).

Plus, I think the 13 black crusades and the gothic war count as fights.

It's arguable that at this point the Tyranids and Necrons are a greater threat as they, to the Imperials, showed up out of nowhere with none of the big honking and obvious points of emergence like the warp storms with several boatloads of troops and ships.

And yeah, Abaddon was made a fool of by Eldrad. His army was *obliterated*, nearly all of his chosen *slaughtered* and he himself was inches away from death. If Eldrad pushed his spear a little forward Abaddon would be a corpse now.

Draigo whoops his ass. His fluff is undeniably the most over the top in all of 40k. I'd have to agree with pretty much everything Void_Dragon has said.

Kain wrote:It's arguable that at this point the Tyranids and Necrons are a greater threat as they, to the Imperials, showed up out of nowhere with none of the big honking and obvious points of emergence like the warp storms with several boatloads of troops and ships.

To be honest, Tyranids, Orks and Necrons could each be argued as a greater threat, but chaos is still the "arch-enemy" and any one of those four have the potential to wipe out the imperium if they get their gak together.

 shrike wrote:

Kain wrote:It's arguable that at this point the Tyranids and Necrons are a greater threat as they, to the Imperials, showed up out of nowhere with none of the big honking and obvious points of emergence like the warp storms with several boatloads of troops and ships.

To be honest, Tyranids, Orks and Necrons could each be argued as a greater threat, but chaos is still the "arch-enemy" and any one of those four have the potential to wipe out the imperium if they get their gak together.

Chaos is the archenemy because it represents a threat to the Imperium's dominance over all of humanity. From a materiel standpoint the legions of chaos don't have the numbers or industrial capacity to defeat the Imperium, having vastly less territory and manpower and little in the way of industrial output. Being able to hide in warp storms is literally the only reason why the forces of Chaos aren't completely shattered now.

 Kain wrote:

 shrike wrote:

Kain wrote:It's arguable that at this point the Tyranids and Necrons are a greater threat as they, to the Imperials, showed up out of nowhere with none of the big honking and obvious points of emergence like the warp storms with several boatloads of troops and ships.

To be honest, Tyranids, Orks and Necrons could each be argued as a greater threat, but chaos is still the "arch-enemy" and any one of those four have the potential to wipe out the imperium if they get their gak together.

Chaos is the archenemy because it represents a threat to the Imperium's dominance over all of humanity. From a materiel standpoint the legions of chaos don't have the numbers or industrial capacity to defeat the Imperium, having vastly less territory and manpower and little in the way of industrial output. Being able to hide in warp storms is literally the only reason why the forces of Chaos aren't completely shattered now.

"Although his ultimate victory has thus far been prevented, the High Lords of Terra live in fear of the day that Abaddon unites all of the Traitor Legions into an unstoppable horde and returns to play out the last acts of treachery begun by Horus ten thousand years ago. Should Abaddon's armies triumph, the floodgates will be open and a never ending tide of Chaos will pour out of the Eye of Terror to despoil the Imperium, and perhaps once again strike at the most prized of worlds - Terra itself."

- Lexicanum's entry on Abaddon the Despoiler

Basically, their situation is kinda like the ork's- if someone charismatic and powerful enough steps forward to unite them, the Imperium would be thoroughly screwed.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
And then ALL his attacks bounce of Abaddon's 2+ save, is that not right?

This is a fluff comparison, not a gameplay comparison.

Think about Draigo achievements.
Best daemon fighter in a chapter of super daemon fighters I good at killing....daemons(!)

This non-sequiter always makes its way into Grey Knight debates, but it is inaccurate, They are particularly capable at slaying Daemons, yes, but Daemon Primarchs like Angron have shown themselves to be functionally immune to the Aigis. It required many Grey Knights combining their powers to wound him enough to banish him. Draigo defeated Mortarion alone and unaided, and more importantly, he physically overpowered him. That makes Draigo physically many times stronger than Abaddon.

He Burned down a forest with fire...which grew back the next day.

No it didn't.

"He unleashed sanctified fire amongst the writhing jungle of Nurgle's Domain, [b]and for a long time the gusting Warp-winds carried only a charcoal stench and the screaming of daemonic vegetation."
- Grey Knight codex, page 39

Smashed a part of the inevitable fortress, which again grew back next day

Prove it grew back in a day.

Nevertheless, smashing the Inevitable City is frankly the only feat Draigo needs to prove he kills Abaddon. Who has not shown any particular defense to psychic powers of that magnitude.

and solving the Labyrinth, the main defence is using memories and hopes to stop you. Draigo doesn't have any memories

Yes he does, don't be silly. He doesn't have any memory of his life before being a Grey Knight. That is like ten years out of hundreds.

and has no hopes other then killing daemons, that's as much of an accomplishment as completing a rubric cube with the instructions in front of you.

Interesting, one would assume he would hope to be able to leave the Warp.

Yeah, not great when you think of it like that. Not to mention its heavily implied he is now slaanesh's Bitch so in the end, Its all a joke because Draigo isn't AP 2.

Indeed, it isn't great when you ignore or lie about the fluff to try and prove your point.

It is not implied he is Slaanesh's bitch, I've already disproved that.

Draigo being AP3 is the result of an edition change, which is nice, but woefully irrelevant.

Anyway, I think I've won this fight. Draigo wins.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tgjensen wrote:

That, or an allergic reaction to horrible writing. I like the creativity Matt Ward brings to the rules, but he seriously needs to get someone else to write his fluff pieces.

That said, Draigo may be the very best of the Grey Knights - and by extension the very best that the Imperium has to offer - but Abaddon is still Abaddon.

It is horrible writing, which is why he is that powerful.

Abaddon is not that tough. I have no idea where people get this perception that he is some insanely powerful uber and unstoppable badass in the fluff.

He's had like one fight after the Heresy. Against Eldrad, in melee. That he lost.

gak just got serious.

But I'd say IF Mortarion was only a Primarch, instead of a daemon primarch, Mortarion would of whooped his Grey ass, any primarch would.. Grey knights have an unfair advantage vs. Daemonkind, just there presence acts to hurt them. Its like saying an exterminator is amazing because he kills bugs. Apart from daemons the only stuff I've read him killing is plague marines and zombies.

Maybe the within a day part was overestimating it, but has he done any lasting damage to them? The forest regrew from the ashes and the fortress rebuilt itself brick by brick.*states this in the Wiki http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Kaldor_Draigo* As stated in the Grey knight codex the Grey knights are incorruptible and have mental fortitude, so we can very safely assume that the Labyrinth held little difficulty for Draigo.

Interesting, for one apparently so well versed you seemed to of missed a bit unless its in the wiki and not GK book. ''but the Grey Knight would accept no boon offered by a daemonic agent of the Master of Sorcery'' So we can also assume he would not fall for a trick to take him home unless he found it himself.

Oh, and please enlighten me as what makes you 100% sure that slaanesh's knight in grey armour isn't Draigo. Because it sure looks to me like that's what it is inferring, that's why there is a humorous picture....

Your move void-Dragon, your move....

 shrike wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 shrike wrote:

Kain wrote:It's arguable that at this point the Tyranids and Necrons are a greater threat as they, to the Imperials, showed up out of nowhere with none of the big honking and obvious points of emergence like the warp storms with several boatloads of troops and ships.

To be honest, Tyranids, Orks and Necrons could each be argued as a greater threat, but chaos is still the "arch-enemy" and any one of those four have the potential to wipe out the imperium if they get their gak together.

Chaos is the archenemy because it represents a threat to the Imperium's dominance over all of humanity. From a materiel standpoint the legions of chaos don't have the numbers or industrial capacity to defeat the Imperium, having vastly less territory and manpower and little in the way of industrial output. Being able to hide in warp storms is literally the only reason why the forces of Chaos aren't completely shattered now.

"Although his ultimate victory has thus far been prevented, the High Lords of Terra live in fear of the day that Abaddon unites all of the Traitor Legions into an unstoppable horde and returns to play out the last acts of treachery begun by Horus ten thousand years ago. Should Abaddon's armies triumph, the floodgates will be open and a never ending tide of Chaos will pour out of the Eye of Terror to despoil the Imperium, and perhaps once again strike at the most prized of worlds - Terra itself."

- Lexicanum's entry on Abaddon the Despoiler

Basically, their situation is kinda like the ork's- if someone charismatic and powerful enough steps forward to unite them, the Imperium would be thoroughly screwed.

Except abaddon did lead his legions out, and lost hilariously in space to the point that the Imperium has near total space supremacy everywhere it matters.

BlaxicanX wrote:
Calgar slaughters.

Pretty much every codex these days has something that is said to have ripped uP an Eldar Avatar!

It'd be close, but Ghazkull, mainly because I don't like the Smurf Daddy

Kain wrote:

 shrike wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 shrike wrote:

Kain wrote:It's arguable that at this point the Tyranids and Necrons are a greater threat as they, to the Imperials, showed up out of nowhere with none of the big honking and obvious points of emergence like the warp storms with several boatloads of troops and ships.

To be honest, Tyranids, Orks and Necrons could each be argued as a greater threat, but chaos is still the "arch-enemy" and any one of those four have the potential to wipe out the imperium if they get their gak together.

Chaos is the archenemy because it represents a threat to the Imperium's dominance over all of humanity. From a materiel standpoint the legions of chaos don't have the numbers or industrial capacity to defeat the Imperium, having vastly less territory and manpower and little in the way of industrial output. Being able to hide in warp storms is literally the only reason why the forces of Chaos aren't completely shattered now.

"Although his ultimate victory has thus far been prevented, the High Lords of Terra live in fear of the day that Abaddon unites all of the Traitor Legions into an unstoppable horde and returns to play out the last acts of treachery begun by Horus ten thousand years ago. Should Abaddon's armies triumph, the floodgates will be open and a never ending tide of Chaos will pour out of the Eye of Terror to despoil the Imperium, and perhaps once again strike at the most prized of worlds - Terra itself."

- Lexicanum's entry on Abaddon the Despoiler

Basically, their situation is kinda like the ork's- if someone charismatic and powerful enough steps forward to unite them, the Imperium would be thoroughly screwed.

Except abaddon did lead his legions out, and lost hilariously in space to the point that the Imperium has near total space supremacy everywhere it matters.

Yes, but that was only the black legion and probably a few other groups- if all of chaos, cultists, marines, daemons and all, united under one leader, it would be a pretty damned close-fought thing.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
gak just got serious.

I am always and never serious.

But I'd say IF Mortarion was only a Primarch, instead of a daemon primarch, Mortarion would of whooped his Grey ass, any primarch would.. Grey knights have an unfair advantage vs. Daemonkind, just there presence acts to hurt them. Its like saying an exterminator is amazing because he kills bugs. Apart from daemons the only stuff I've read him killing is plague marines and zombies.

Perhaps, but Angron, hit by the Aigis of 100 Grey Knights, was not weakened much, if at all, nor were his Bloodthirster bodyguards. He was still able to slaughter scores of Grey Knights casually. It required a focused psychic blast to weaken him enough to land the killing blow.

Draigo was the only Grey Knight present, and see, the fight as described consists of Draigo cutting through Mortarion's bodyguard, throwing the Daemon Primarch to the ground, and holding him there. That is a level of physical might Abaddon has never displayed.

Maybe the within a day part was overestimating it, but has he done any lasting damage to them? The forest regrew from the ashes and the fortress rebuilt itself brick by brick.*states this in the Wiki http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Kaldor_Draigo* As stated in the Grey knight codex the Grey knights are incorruptible and have mental fortitude, so we can very safely assume that the Labyrinth held little difficulty for Draigo.

Is any of this really relevant? No... I'd say not. Your red herrings have no sway over me.

Abaddon won't grow back once Draigo burns him to ash or tears him to pieces.

Interesting, for one apparently so well versed you seemed to of missed a bit unless its in the wiki and not GK book. ''but the Grey Knight would accept no boon offered by a daemonic agent of the Master of Sorcery'' So we can also assume he would not fall for a trick to take him home unless he found it himself.

Ah, and this would be a strawman. I said that he likely hopes to escape the Warp. That doesn't equate to "He hopes for and would do anything to escape the Warp". Wanting to escape the Warp does not mean he is stupid enough to trust a Lord of Change's offer to aid in doing so.

Oh, and please enlighten me as what makes you 100% sure that slaanesh's knight in grey armour isn't Draigo. Because it sure looks to me like that's what it is inferring, that's why there is a humorous picture....

There is a "humorous picture" because 4chan is full of stupid people.



Does that look like Tactical Dreadnought Armour to you?

Either way, it is a moot point, for two reasons.

A. You don't have empirical evidence of it being Draigo.

B. Even if Draigo is Slaanesh's bitch, he would still steamroll Abaddon.

Your move void-Dragon, your move....

Oh please, you think you can handle a game of wits with the great Void__Dragon (Proper spelling)? You were never a player. My magnificence transcends comprehension.

You think that's air you're breathing?

Calgar beats Ghazghkuull by their actual showings, to be perfectly blunt.

Ghaz's only wins of note are against Yarrick and Belial.

Calgar ripped an Avatar of Khaine in half.

This would be a cool death match to witness. I'm pretty sure Calgar will win but I hope Ghazghkuull will win by some miracle.

 shrike wrote:


Well, I don't think he's a god or anything, but he is (AFAIK) one of the oldest space marines alive.

Bjorn, who beat up a full-strength primarch, would like a word with you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Void__Dragon wrote:

Oh please, you think you can handle a game of wits with the great Void__Dragon (Proper spelling)? You were never a player. My magnificence transcends comprehension.

Holy gak you just got Tzeench'd

Thatguyhsagun wrote:

 shrike wrote:


Well, I don't think he's a god or anything, but he is (AFAIK) one of the oldest space marines alive.

Bjorn, who beat up a full-strength primarch, would like a word with you.

I count dreadnoughts as kinda their own thing.
"Abaddon is (AFAIK) one of the oldest non-dreadnought-ed space marines alive."

 shrike wrote:

Thatguyhsagun wrote:

 shrike wrote:


Well, I don't think he's a god or anything, but he is (AFAIK) one of the oldest space marines alive.

Bjorn, who beat up a full-strength primarch, would like a word with you.

I count dreadnoughts as kinda their own thing.
"Abaddon is (AFAIK) one of the oldest non-dreadnought-ed space marines alive."

well im just saying. He is technically still alive... kind of.

Thatguyhsagun wrote:

 shrike wrote:

Thatguyhsagun wrote:

 shrike wrote:


Well, I don't think he's a god or anything, but he is (AFAIK) one of the oldest space marines alive.

Bjorn, who beat up a full-strength primarch, would like a word with you.

I count dreadnoughts as kinda their own thing.
"Abaddon is (AFAIK) one of the oldest non-dreadnought-ed space marines alive."

well im just saying. He is technically still alive... kind of.

 shrike wrote:

Thatguyhsagun wrote:

 shrike wrote:

Thatguyhsagun wrote:

 shrike wrote:


Well, I don't think he's a god or anything, but he is (AFAIK) one of the oldest space marines alive.

Bjorn, who beat up a full-strength primarch, would like a word with you.

I count dreadnoughts as kinda their own thing.
"Abaddon is (AFAIK) one of the oldest non-dreadnought-ed space marines alive."

well im just saying. He is technically still alive... kind of.

Hey I'm just saying I don't want to piss off 10+ tonnes of angry space wolf. If that kinda thing floats your boat that's fine with me, just sail it the other way so I'm not in the splash zone, I just got my good sweat pants on.

Interesting question; would Draigo be able to accomplish the same things in realspace as he does in the Warp?

Don't get me wrong, he accomplishes a lot of really impressive stuff in realspace, but it strikes me that a lot of his grander achievements take place in imagination land where "anything is possible" and power waxes and wanes like the tides.