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 Eetion wrote:
I'd be interested on hearing how Huron Blackheart rates against the likes of Calgar, Grimnar, Helbrecht, Azrael etc

I'd say that the answer's "he doesn't". Calgar has impossibly well-crafted armour and weapons on top of his skill, Grimnar's got way more experience, Helbrecht is the Chapter Master of a Chapter that doesn't do anything outside close combat and Azrael... I've got no clue there actually. I can't find anything about Azrael being anything other than an "average" Chapter Master, other than the Sword of Secrets.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
And because Mortarion is a Daemon Primarch and thus weakened by the mere presence of a normal, non-Justicar Grey Knight, nevermind the massive Grey Knight presence in the battle, not to mention the fact that he was fresh from carving up the previous Supreme Grand Master. Draigo won because he had more kryptonite than God, not because he's physically stronger than Mortarion.

The Aegis of a hundred Grey Knights could not so much as slow Angron down. Nor could it weaken the 12 Bloodthirsters present. This evidence, along with the fact that no weakening is taking place, must make us conclude that Mortarion was at full strength.

Also, what massive Grey Knight presence in the battle? He struck Mortarion down "alone and unaided". He had no help from other Grey Knights.

Stop applying context to the fight where there is none. He threw him to the ground and dominated him.

Just to draw a comparison, Inquisitor Lord Hector Rex went one-on-one melee with An'ggrath the Unbound (who'd probably rank around Daemon Primarch in power, what with being Lord of Bloodthirsters and Guardian of the Throne of Skulls and all...) and won. Barely. By using An'ggrath's True Name and an impossibly powerful artifact Force Weapon. It's more or less the same thing, lots and lots of specialised gear and training to kill Daemons means you're going to be damn good at killing Daemons, but you'd still be a strong-ish Chapter Master against other marines, and only because of the psychic potential of the Grey Knights.

It is not "more or less the same thing".

Draigo's feats of destroying the Inevitable City and burning down the Garden of Nurgle show us he could easily do the same to Abaddon.

The point was that Abaddon wouldn't have to use Drach'nyen, the only Daemonic about Abaddon, to carve Draigo a new one.

Well actually he'd basically need a Blackstone Fortress to fight Draigo. Anything less and Kaldor tears him to pieces with his bare hands.

Eldrad, as in the most powerful Farseer since... actually, that's a point (and I'm genuinely curious), is there ever a mention of a Farseer more powerful than Eldrad? I'm assuming there'd be some of them around pre-fall, but still...

Nothing about being the mightiest Farseer we know of makes Eldrad a more effective beatstick.

He romped Abaddon not with psychic powers, but in melee.

Kaldor Draigo, bare-knuckle brawler of Bloodthirsters, crushes Abaddon. And he does it easily.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Eetion wrote:
I'd be interested on hearing how Huron Blackheart rates against the likes of Calgar, Grimnar, Helbrecht, Azrael etc

I'd say that the answer's "he doesn't". Calgar has impossibly well-crafted armour and weapons on top of his skill, Grimnar's got way more experience, Helbrecht is the Chapter Master of a Chapter that doesn't do anything outside close combat and Azrael... I've got no clue there actually. I can't find anything about Azrael being anything other than an "average" Chapter Master, other than the Sword of Secrets.

And Huron is a giant of an Astartes that seems to be more machine than man with the Tyrants Claw and the Hamadrya whispering his enemies intentions to him. I'd give him more credit than that. In effect Huron has an element of precognition to take into account when you consider him.

Who has Huron fought and beaten?

Lack of evidence does not equal lack of capability.
Who has beaten him?

Chaos warriors don't follow mediocre leaders.

The prospect of a fight with Grand Master Mordrak led him to flee.

I don't doubt that Huron is a very powerful warrior, but his lack of showings would make putting him on the same pedestal as Calgar, Dante, or Logan Grimnar a rather bold claim.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
And because Mortarion is a Daemon Primarch and thus weakened by the mere presence of a normal, non-Justicar Grey Knight, nevermind the massive Grey Knight presence in the battle, not to mention the fact that he was fresh from carving up the previous Supreme Grand Master. Draigo won because he had more kryptonite than God, not because he's physically stronger than Mortarion.

The Aegis of a hundred Grey Knights could not so much as slow Angron down. Nor could it weaken the 12 Bloodthirsters present. This evidence, along with the fact that no weakening is taking place, must make us conclude that Mortarion was at full strength.

Also, what massive Grey Knight presence in the battle? He struck Mortarion down "alone and unaided". He had no help from other Grey Knights.

Stop applying context to the fight where there is none. He threw him to the ground and dominated him.

Stop ignoring context when it's there. Mortarion had just killed the previous Supreme Grand Master who, being Supreme Grand Master of the Grey Knights, would've been a pretty dangerous adversary in the first place. Secondly, Draigo, then a Grand Master, was elevated to the rank of Supreme Grand Master, which the Codex tells us can only happen if all the Grand Masters are in agreement. Thus, we can draw the conclusion that all eight Grand Masters, as well as the Supreme Grand Master, we're present, which in turn tells us that the force fighting Mortarion was much more powerful than that which banished Angron, seeing as that was lead by a (in the context) mere Brother-Captain.

Regardless, the Codex only says that Draigo strikes Mortarion to the ground, it doesn't say that he arm-wrestled him into submission. If Hector Rex, a mere human albeit an Inquisitor, can one-on-one Khorne's mightiest servant and win, why is it such an impossibility to accept that Draigo, a Space Marine designed with the sole purpouse of fighting Daemons, could beat Mortarion without breaking previously established fluff?

"Alone and unaided".

You can't contradict what the codex actually claims. Oh, and the codex just says that his elevation to Supreme Grand Master following Gerotinan's death, not that he was elevated right on the field of battle. Oh, and said Brother-Captain was explicitly on the level of "any Grand Master of the Order".

An'ggrath is not Khorne's mightiest servant, you are thinking of Angron. Oh, and Hector Rex is a gene-vat grown freak with physical abilities on par with the Space Marines, just less organs. So he is not a "mere human".

Why do you think I think Kaldor is a lost Primarch? For fun? Generally I use that and the anti-demonic-properbilities to explain stuff.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
The prospect of a fight with Grand Master Mordrak led him to flee.

I don't doubt that Huron is a very powerful warrior, but his lack of showings would make putting him on the same pedestal as Calgar, Dante, or Logan Grimnar a rather bold claim.

s not that I'd put him as the best of them. But having the Hamadrya and that element of precognition is a massive advantage. I'd rate it as more useful than the Gauntless of Ultramar or other artifact weapons. It not only gives him an idea of when and where an attack is coming, but just what they will do to block his attacks. He might have a follow up with hos axe ready or if they try to break the distance then a burst from his flames.

That and as I mentioned he is a giant of an Astartes who is more machine than man. Not easy to kill at all.

I stand by opinion that he would give a better showing than he is being credited with.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
"Alone and unaided".

You can't contradict what the codex actually claims. Oh, and the codex just says that his elevation to Supreme Grand Master following Gerotinan's death, not that he was elevated right on the field of battle. Oh, and said Brother-Captain was explicitly on the level of "any Grand Master of the Order".

Read the text. Seriously, read it. "Grand Master Kaldor Draigo is elevated to the rank of Supreme Grand Master amidst the din of the battlefield and vows vengeance on Mortarion" (emphasis mine). My interpretation of "alone and unaided" is Draigo going in, alone, and "killing" (well, banishing) Mortarion on his own. That doesn't mean that there can't be external forces such as the combined Aegis of a force strong enough to include all 8 Grand Masters of the Grey Knights and their Supreme Grand Master weakening Mortarion. If I wrestled an injured boar to the ground and choked it to death (over the top example, I know, but still) I'd still have done it "alone and unaided", because there wasn't anyone actively helping me.

Regardless, as an enemy to the Grey Knights I'd rate Angron higher than Mortarion. Angron's entire schtick is that he, in general, punches people to death better than the other Primarchs. Combined with Khorne's general distaste of psykers and the subsequent protection his favoured Daemons have against psychic powers he makes for a more formidable foe than Mortarion, in my opinion.

 Void__Dragon wrote:


An'ggrath is not Khorne's mightiest servant, you are thinking of Angron. Oh, and Hector Rex is a gene-vat grown freak with physical abilities on par with the Space Marines, just less organs. So he is not a "mere human".

An'ggrath is "Khorne's most favoured servant", "Guardian of the Throne of Skulls", "Lord of Bloodthirsters", whose model is the size of a small Titan. Contrast it to Angron, who when GW made rules for him was more or less "only" a Bloodthirster on steroids. An'ggrath, not Angron, is explicitly Khorne's champion.

Regarding Hector Rex, he doesn't have anti-Daemonic wards inscribed into his skeleton or a psychic presence that causes pain in Daemons. He isn't anathema to Daemons in the same way as a Grey Knight, and he sure as hell isn't on the anti-Daemonic level of a Grand Master of the Grey Knights.

 Eetion wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
The prospect of a fight with Grand Master Mordrak led him to flee.

I don't doubt that Huron is a very powerful warrior, but his lack of showings would make putting him on the same pedestal as Calgar, Dante, or Logan Grimnar a rather bold claim.

s not that I'd put him as the best of them. But having the Hamadrya and that element of precognition is a massive advantage. I'd rate it as more useful than the Gauntless of Ultramar or other artifact weapons. It not only gives him an idea of when and where an attack is coming, but just what they will do to block his attacks. He might have a follow up with hos axe ready or if they try to break the distance then a burst from his flames.

That and as I mentioned he is a giant of an Astartes who is more machine than man. Not easy to kill at all.

I stand by opinion that he would give a better showing than he is being credited with.

Calgar is also more machine than man, having had all his limbs chopped off, Helbrecht has extensive bionic replacements as well, and for every blast of flame from Huron there's a hail of relic bolter shells from Calgar or a melta blast from Dante or Helbrecht.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Read the text. Seriously, read it. "Grand Master Kaldor Draigo is elevated to the rank of Supreme Grand Master amidst the din of the battlefield and vows vengeance on Mortarion" (emphasis mine).

All right, I'll admit I missed that when I skimmed through both passages.

My interpretation of "alone and unaided" is Draigo going in, alone, and "killing" (well, banishing) Mortarion on his own. That doesn't mean that there can't be external forces such as the combined Aegis of a force strong enough to include all 8 Grand Masters of the Grey Knights and their Supreme Grand Master weakening Mortarion. If I wrestled an injured boar to the ground and choked it to death (over the top example, I know, but still) I'd still have done it "alone and unaided", because there wasn't anyone actively helping me.

Then they would be aiding them, wouldn't they?

That they and their aigis were not mentioned at all forces me not to consider the possibility of their aid.

Not that beating Mortarion is even close to Draigo's greatest feat mind you. Crushing the Inevitable City alone means he has the psychic wazoo to crush Abaddon dead in his armour with a glance.

Regardless, as an enemy to the Grey Knights I'd rate Angron higher than Mortarion. Angron's entire schtick is that he, in general, punches people to death better than the other Primarchs. Combined with Khorne's general distaste of psykers and the subsequent protection his favoured Daemons have against psychic powers he makes for a more formidable foe than Mortarion, in my opinion.

And Mortarion's entire schtick is that he, in general, endures punishment much better than the other Primarchs. Combined with his ascension making Mortarion also a formidable sorcerer, he would prove more endurant against the Aigis than Angron, in my opinion.

An'ggrath is "Khorne's most favoured servant", "Guardian of the Throne of Skulls", "Lord of Bloodthirsters", whose model is the size of a small Titan. Contrast it to Angron, who when GW made rules for him was more or less "only" a Bloodthirster on steroids. An'ggrath, not Angron, is explicitly Khorne's champion.

An'ggrath was punked by bitch!Lorgar. He can pile as many titles above his name as he wants, that doesn't change the fact that Lorgar fethed him up in martial combat, and then proceeded to get his ass handed to him by Corax. Who believed that he didn't stand a chance against Angron in battle. Pre-Daemon, mind you.

Oh, and in the Space Wolves codex, Angron was referred to as "first among the favoured of the Blood God", and his retinue of Bloodthirsters are referred to as the "most terrible of the Blood God's servants, save the Daemon Primarch himself". The Emperor's Gift also portrays Angron as the most powerful of all Khorne's homies, and one of the six mightiest Daemons in existence (Hint: There are six Daemon Primarchs). Oh, and he's explicitly the size of a Warhound Titan, lol.

Regarding Hector Rex, he doesn't have anti-Daemonic wards inscribed into his skeleton or a psychic presence that causes pain in Daemons. He isn't anathema to Daemons in the same way as a Grey Knight, and he sure as hell isn't on the anti-Daemonic level of a Grand Master of the Grey Knights.

He has a sword blessed by the psychic might of the Emperor himself, who can banish the mightiest of Daemons with a glance. He himself of course made psychic contact with the Emperor, which increased his already formidable psychic powers. He knew An'ggrath's True Name. Also, he managed to do far better against Angron than a Brother-Captain Grey Knight and his squad of Terminators.

Is he as anti-Daemon awesome as a Grand Master? It's hard to say, to be blunt. His psychic power was demonstrably more anti-Daemon than said BroCap's, shown when they both fought against legions of Bloodthirster's together. Oh, and there is the fact that he almost died against An'ggrath, he only won because the Daemon Lord took the time to pause (When he could have dealt a killing stroke) and roar to the Heavens, calling Khorne to watch him feth this dude up.

Also, Brother-Captain Stern was defeated in single combat by Uruka, a Daemon Prince of lesser status than An'ggrath.

So we can conclude that Rex is comfortably above BroCaps in the Daemon slaying department.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Read the text. Seriously, read it. "Grand Master Kaldor Draigo is elevated to the rank of Supreme Grand Master amidst the din of the battlefield and vows vengeance on Mortarion" (emphasis mine).

All right, I'll admit I missed that when I skimmed through both passages.

My interpretation of "alone and unaided" is Draigo going in, alone, and "killing" (well, banishing) Mortarion on his own. That doesn't mean that there can't be external forces such as the combined Aegis of a force strong enough to include all 8 Grand Masters of the Grey Knights and their Supreme Grand Master weakening Mortarion. If I wrestled an injured boar to the ground and choked it to death (over the top example, I know, but still) I'd still have done it "alone and unaided", because there wasn't anyone actively helping me.

Then they would be aiding them, wouldn't they?

That they and their aigis were not mentioned at all forces me not to consider the possibility of their aid.

It wouldn't be actively aiding. Regardless, Mortarion had just finished off the previous Supreme Grand Master, which means that Draigo had aid of a sort from that. The Codex contradicts itself, which leads me to the conclusion that what the Codex means with "alone and unaided" is "alone and without anyone actively aiding him".

 Void__Dragon wrote:


And Mortarion's entire schtick is that he, in general, endures punishment much better than the other Primarchs. Combined with his ascension making Mortarion also a formidable sorcerer, he would prove more endurant against the Aigis than Angron, in my opinion.

Fair enough, we'll have to agree to disagree.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

That they and their aigis were not mentioned at all forces me not to consider the possibility of their aid.

Not that beating Mortarion is even close to Draigo's greatest feat mind you. Crushing the Inevitable City alone means he has the psychic wazoo to crush Abaddon dead in his armour with a glance.

A psyker that's got his entire set of skills geared towards destroying Daemonic enteties will be good at destroying enteties, I don't know why you're surprised. That doesn't mean that those powers will affect non-Daemons at all.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

An'ggrath was punked by bitch!Lorgar. He can pile as many titles above his name as he wants, that doesn't change the fact that Lorgar fethed him up in martial combat, and then proceeded to get his ass handed to him by Corax. Who believed that he didn't stand a chance against Angron in battle. Pre-Daemon, mind you.

Oh, and in the Space Wolves codex, Angron was referred to as "first among the favoured of the Blood God", and his retinue of Bloodthirsters are referred to as the "most terrible of the Blood God's servants, save the Daemon Primarch himself". The Emperor's Gift also portrays Angron as the most powerful of all Khorne's homies, and one of the six mightiest Daemons in existence (Hint: There are six Daemon Primarchs). Oh, and he's explicitly the size of a Warhound Titan, lol.

Angron's Bloodthirsters can't be the most terrible of the Blood God's servants. Both Ka'bandha and, more often, An'ggrath are called "Lord of Bloodthirsters", and IA:A2nd ed explicitly establishes An'ggrath as being the most powerful Bloodthirster ever summoned from the Warp. I guess we can chalk up our disagreement to a lack of consistency in the fluff; as you say, Angron is sometimes portrayed as the greatest of Khorne's servants, whereas other times it's An'ggrath.

On a final note, give Brother-Captain Stern a chance, he lost against friggin' Genghis Khan!

@ Void_Dragon. Abbadon is the chosen of chaos, the vassal of the dark gods, do you think they would let one of their mightiest champions die? (Were it to come to that) they would intervene as they did when the fallen were whisked away from Caliban or when Kharn finally dies at the gates of Terra and even to a lesser extent whenever someone kills lucius the eternal. Also what has Draigo really achieved in the warp but giving a true death to daemons in the warp?