Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

noob here. which would make the most most adaptable close combat army? Khorne CSM, Slaanesh CSM, or Blood Angels? for the chaos armies I was considering marines with CC and pistol and one of the two marks instead of their elite counterparts (bezerkers or noise marines.)

I would say chaos space marines
1. they just got a new codex
2. plague marines got poisoned weapons
3. for CC zerkers are deadly on the charge
4 noise marines weapons ignore cover and have a pretty decent range
5. their terminators are the cheapest out of all their loyalists and same with their landraider
6. their regular chaos space marines get 2 attacks and 3 on the charge

Chaos Marines. You can get a cultist horde for some cover if you are trying to cross the table on foot. If you want a vehicle rush, dirge casters are an extremely cheap upgrade that prevents overwatch. Take that, tau!

Danny slag wrote:
noob here. which would make the most most adaptable close combat army? Khorne CSM, Slaanesh CSM, or Blood Angels? for the chaos armies I was considering marines with CC and pistol and one of the two marks instead of their elite counterparts (bezerkers or noise marines.)

Blood Angels! (Mainly because that's the army I play ;D) We also get Chaplains for 80pts as Elite choices, Death Company (Badass), Death Company Dreadnoughts (Badass), I7 Captains (Badass) and Super Fast Rhino-Chassis vehicles (SUPERBADASS). If you want your stuff to get into combat quickly, take Blood Angels, if you want a super-heavy army, that, when it gets into combat, will deal a lot of damage, but until then just has to sustain the opposition's firepower, then take Chaos Space Marines.. And always remember: RED WUNZ GO FASTA


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MMJ24 wrote:
I would say chaos space marines
6. their regular chaos space marines get 2 attacks and 3 on the charge

Only if you give them BPs and CCWs...

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

Danny slag wrote:
noob here. which would make the most most adaptable close combat army? Khorne CSM, Slaanesh CSM, or Blood Angels? for the chaos armies I was considering marines with CC and pistol and one of the two marks instead of their elite counterparts (bezerkers or noise marines.)

Blood Angels! (Mainly because that's the army I play ;D) We also get Chaplains for 80pts as Elite choices, Death Company (Badass), Death Company Dreadnoughts (Badass), I7 Captains (Badass) and Super Fast Rhino-Chassis vehicles (SUPERBADASS). If you want your stuff to get into combat quickly, take Blood Angels, if you want a super-heavy army, that, when it gets into combat, will deal a lot of damage, but until then just has to sustain the opposition's firepower, then take Chaos Space Marines.. And always remember: RED WUNZ GO FASTA


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MMJ24 wrote:
I would say chaos space marines
6. their regular chaos space marines get 2 attacks and 3 on the charge

Only if you give them BPs and CCWs...

Actually no. You pay 2 points and then your boltgunner gets two attacks even if charged. If you charge you get 3. Granted, if you pay that, you cost more than the new Space Marine loyalist point cost (Dark Angels)

 StarTrotter wrote:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

Danny slag wrote:
noob here. which would make the most most adaptable close combat army? Khorne CSM, Slaanesh CSM, or Blood Angels? for the chaos armies I was considering marines with CC and pistol and one of the two marks instead of their elite counterparts (bezerkers or noise marines.)

Blood Angels! (Mainly because that's the army I play ;D) We also get Chaplains for 80pts as Elite choices, Death Company (Badass), Death Company Dreadnoughts (Badass), I7 Captains (Badass) and Super Fast Rhino-Chassis vehicles (SUPERBADASS). If you want your stuff to get into combat quickly, take Blood Angels, if you want a super-heavy army, that, when it gets into combat, will deal a lot of damage, but until then just has to sustain the opposition's firepower, then take Chaos Space Marines.. And always remember: RED WUNZ GO FASTA


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MMJ24 wrote:
I would say chaos space marines
6. their regular chaos space marines get 2 attacks and 3 on the charge

Only if you give them BPs and CCWs...

Actually no. You pay 2 points and then your boltgunner gets two attacks even if charged. If you charge you get 3. Granted, if you pay that, you cost more than the new Space Marine loyalist point cost (Dark Angels)

Actually, you pay 2 points for the *choice* to swap between those two each turn.. You can either have the boltgun, or you can have the BP and CCW every turn, and you can't change, so if you want to be prepared for combat, you're losing your ranged capability, and if you don't want that, then you're gonna get whupped in combat by the Assault Marines that just charged you, and inflicted their HoW attacks and then killed you ;D

The only reference I can find in regards to choosing between weapons is choosing which one to use in the shooting phase. It applies no limitation to the rest of your turn when you assault, or your opponents turn when you overwatch or are assaulted. The only reason you have to choose on your own turn is because you can't assault after firing a rapid fire weapon.

Blood angels, chaos isn't much of a CC army nowadays.

purifier spam with halbreds. these other options are complete trash in comparison.

edit: i guess if i had to pick i would say blood angels but god did 6th ever neuter them.

Tough call, honestly, but I think I would go BA - and I even say this as a CSM player. BA have access to better LR's and they're also Dedicated Transports, they have access to Drop Pods, all-around better CC units, and has been said, Death Company.

Sure, you can do bolter, bolt pistol & CCW on generic CSM, but they're not all that spectacular, to make them 'good', you need to start giving them Marks & Icons, which -quickly- start adding up & the 'cheap' marines you were bringing to fill out your troops slots w/ are no longer so cheap. Berzerkers are pretty decent on the charge - then grind to a halt & are no better than standard assault marines (although being Fearless is a benefit). Raptors can be good, but again, you'll have to pay through the nose to get there.

With BA, you can have army-wide FnP, get Furious Charge for free due to the Red Thirst rule (I think that's where it comes from, don't quote me on it though) & assault squads as troops - tho the benefit of this is questionable @ times. The Rhino chassis vehicles being Fast is also up in the air as to usefulness as you can't disembark after moving more than 6", nor can you assault out of Rhinos/Razorbacks anyway, so I would personally write that off as a wash.

So, to sum it up, if you just absolutely want to go all out on an assault army, BA is really the way to go. However, I feel it will be an uphill battle for you.

~Vryce

Blood Angels because having such good assult troops as core is just so very much fun. Also death company!

Speaking as a BA and CSM player I would advise BA at this point. Chaos has some potentially deadly cc units and combos but they are, for the most part, overcosted for what they do and they all suffer from the same issue. No reliable delivery system outside the CSM land raider which, frankly, sucks something fierce next to it's BA counterpart.

With BA you will be able to take units like DC (still better than any cc unit in the CSM codec) AND the ubiquitous furioso blendernaught. U also have sang guard AND assault marines as troops. It really isn't even a contest imo. The one and only reason to go Chaos would be if you wanted to support ur troops with a heldrake but that's it imo. But then you better get use to ur cc units rarely getting into combat.

Edit:
mmj24 - the chaos terminafots and land raider are cheaper because they are not nearly as good as their loyalist counter parts so I'm not sure those two points are the best selling points. Without reliable teleport homers we can't even do basic termicide as reliably and we don't even have thunder hammers or storm shields. We don't even have anything equivalent. On top of that our land raiders lack PotMS and lack the variant options that would even make one worth taking. These are options most loyalist chapters (including BA) almost take for granted at this point.

Following the nerf to Chaos Marines' assault abilities and Zerkers now being terrible Chaos is quite overrated in assault. Khorne has largely forsaken us this edition. And what's worse is that Chaos has few ways to actually get into assault, you have one assault METAL BAWKS, and it's the old schizo land raider which can only bring ten guys around and costs a premium. Your assault infantry cost much more than marines but die like marines to shooting, and aren't that much better anyway.

If you want Chaos, go nurgle.

Neither. Grey knights give everybody a free power weapon, and can take two-wound terminators that can take free 2++ save sticks. And they can shunt. And they get hammerhand, and prescience, and buffs against demons and psykers. And DCA+storm shield henchmen squads.

I guess second to them would be CSM, as they can take absurdly cheap power armor dudes with BP+CCWs that can upgrade to khorne for likewise pretty cheap. Plus, they come in at up to 20 in a single unit.

After that, I'd say a wing DA army, followed by sisters of battle.

 Ailaros wrote:
Neither. Grey knights give everybody a free power weapon, and can take two-wound terminators that can take free 2++ save sticks. And they can shunt. And they get hammerhand, and prescience, and buffs against demons and psykers. And DCA+storm shield henchmen squads.

I guess second to them would be CSM, as they can take absurdly cheap power armor dudes with BP+CCWs that can upgrade to khorne for likewise pretty cheap. Plus, they come in at up to 20 in a single unit.

After that, I'd say a wing DA army, followed by sisters of battle.

I am sorry, but No, big no. I faced a SoB army recently and any army that fails in CC against my necrons is not a good CC army. They may have a PA save of 3+, but they only have S3 and T3 (ridiculous, you would think PA would upgrade their S and T). So yeah, 2 Destroyers slowly destroyed over 6 sisters in CC and forced them to run.

He may be referring to repentia. The sisters have a weird need to be at sneezing distance from the enemy when they''re generally mediocre at assault. Yes the necrons also specialize in shorter ranged dakka, but they''re deceptively mobile and their sweet spot is 12-24. Sisters do best at melta and thus charge range where they can exercise their holy pyromania. Well besides the exorcist which is a pretty beefy long ranged killer.

Also Battle Conclaves. Cheap assassins and Crusaders. SoB do have some combat ability. It's just the problem of surviving to get there.

Thank you very much for all the advice. After looking over the comments and codexes it does look like the points everyone made for BA make a lot of sense. The real difference seems to be not so much in close combat itself but the ability to deliver CC with better landraiders that are troop choices, drop pods and a lot more good deep strike options. It's kinda a shame because I like choas craziness but walking a CC unit all the way across the board doesnt sound like a very good idea. I really want a CC focused army that isn't a horde like orc or nid (the two races I played in epic.)

 Ailaros wrote:
Neither. Grey knights give everybody a free power weapon, and can take two-wound terminators that can take free 2++ save sticks. And they can shunt. And they get hammerhand, and prescience, and buffs against demons and psykers. And DCA+storm shield henchmen squads.

I guess second to them would be CSM, as they can take absurdly cheap power armor dudes with BP+CCWs that can upgrade to khorne for likewise pretty cheap. Plus, they come in at up to 20 in a single unit.

After that, I'd say a wing DA army, followed by sisters of battle.

Actually, the NFW the GK take aren't 'free', you pay for them in the cost of the model. Neither is the warding stave free - you pay for the upgrade on any model that takes it. It's also a one per squad upgrade, even on Paladins.

Tho I will back up the thought that for a full-on assault SM army, GK have the deck stacked pretty high in their favor.

~Vryce

 Vryce wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
Neither. Grey knights give everybody a free power weapon, and can take two-wound terminators that can take free 2++ save sticks. And they can shunt. And they get hammerhand, and prescience, and buffs against demons and psykers. And DCA+storm shield henchmen squads.

I guess second to them would be CSM, as they can take absurdly cheap power armor dudes with BP+CCWs that can upgrade to khorne for likewise pretty cheap. Plus, they come in at up to 20 in a single unit.

After that, I'd say a wing DA army, followed by sisters of battle.

Actually, the NFW the GK take aren't 'free', you pay for them in the cost of the model. Neither is the warding stave free - you pay for the upgrade on any model that takes it. It's also a one per squad upgrade, even on Paladins.

Tho I will back up the thought that for a full-on assault SM army, GK have the deck stacked pretty high in their favor.

~Vryce

I just can't bring myself to play grey knights. I hate in any game being that guy who brings the obviously broken cheese army that no one likes playing against and 9 out of 10 tournament armies bring. That's why even though I love the necron models I refuse to play them. I've just heard far too much winging about how stupidly over powered both of those armies are and I want people to enjoy playing games with me.

Actually, GK's teeth were dulled somewhat by the move from 5th ed to 6th. It can (& has) been argued that they are really more of a great mid-range shooting army w/ a good CC component as opposed to a full on in your face assault list. The changes to wound allocation, force/power weapon AP values & disembarking/assaulting from transports really changed the way the book plays.

~Vryce

Danny slag wrote:

 Vryce wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
Neither. Grey knights give everybody a free power weapon, and can take two-wound terminators that can take free 2++ save sticks. And they can shunt. And they get hammerhand, and prescience, and buffs against demons and psykers. And DCA+storm shield henchmen squads.

I guess second to them would be CSM, as they can take absurdly cheap power armor dudes with BP+CCWs that can upgrade to khorne for likewise pretty cheap. Plus, they come in at up to 20 in a single unit.

After that, I'd say a wing DA army, followed by sisters of battle.

Actually, the NFW the GK take aren't 'free', you pay for them in the cost of the model. Neither is the warding stave free - you pay for the upgrade on any model that takes it. It's also a one per squad upgrade, even on Paladins.

Tho I will back up the thought that for a full-on assault SM army, GK have the deck stacked pretty high in their favor.

~Vryce

I just can't bring myself to play grey knights. I hate in any game being that guy who brings the obviously broken cheese army that no one likes playing against and 9 out of 10 tournament armies bring. That's why even though I love the necron models I refuse to play them. I've just heard far too much winging about how stupidly over powered both of those armies are and I want people to enjoy playing games with me.

I'd love to play in your meta if GKs are still "OP". Must be a bunch of noobs still buttfrustrated about 5th edition. Necrons and Guard put them to shame on a regular basis in tournaments. Guard got an army upgrade straight out of the BRB for 's sake.

To be conscructive OP, BA's have a lot of bells and whistles when it comes to assault but what most people here have yet to mention is the points premium you pay. You are not going to be able to field the stuff mentioned and still have a functioning force.

To be conscructive OP, BA's have a lot of bells and whistles when it comes to assault but what most people here have yet to mention is the points premium you pay. You are not going to be able to field the stuff mentioned and still have a functioning force.

I completely disagree with that statement. Well part of it anyway. Right now BA are expensive, but to say that you will not be able to put together a "functioning" force because of that cost is simply not accurate. It's also sort of glossing over the fact that to build a "similar" army using CSM, you would still end up with a fairly expensive army. By the time you're done tooling up a basic Chaos Marine to be useful, he's no longer points efficient, and the same can be said for a great deal of the CC options in the Chaos book.