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In a very long game last night, the difference between a draw or a win came down to a heated debate.

Eldar turn 4, Eldrads squad failed a morale check and ran 12" or so to the table edge. Turn 5, prior to any movement etc, Eldrad passed regroup test and moves the mandatory 3". Is he is then prevented from casting Fortune on himself because he has moved already?

The BRB page 67 states specifically that a psychic power can be manifested even if falling back or having gone to ground. It also states that powers cast in the movement phase cannot be cast if you are entering from reserves.

Thoughts?

Considering marines still get movement after regrouping thanks to ATSKNF, I woudln't consider regrouping to be Eldrad's movement and allow him to manifest blessings and maledictions, but that's just HIWPI.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Considering marines still get movement after regrouping thanks to ATSKNF, I woudln't consider regrouping to be Eldrad's movement and allow him to manifest blessings and maledictions, but that's just HIWPI.

The problem with that interpretation is that ATSKNF has clear rules that allow marines to pretty much act as normal following an auto-regroup. Eldrad does not have that luxury.

I haven't actually found anything that says I have to cast the non-shooting phase powers before I do anything else (our group interpret that the psychic powers must be made directly after reserves and before anything moves etc). All I have found is that it's clear those powers cannot be cast after entering from reserves.

Is Fortune required to be cast at the beginning of the movement phase or beginning of the Psykers movement?

He should've cast Fortune before he tried to re-group.

Iranna.

Blighty wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Considering marines still get movement after regrouping thanks to ATSKNF, I woudln't consider regrouping to be Eldrad's movement and allow him to manifest blessings and maledictions, but that's just HIWPI.

The problem with that interpretation is that ATSKNF has clear rules that allow marines to pretty much act as normal following an auto-regroup. Eldrad does not have that luxury.

Yes, but the mere fact that they can move after regrouping suggests that regrouping is not part of movement.

 Iranna wrote:
He should've cast Fortune before he tried to re-group.

Iranna.

So you are allowed to cast it before regrouping?

My understanding (as the Eldar player and being the only one who actually uses psychic powers) is that regrouping is a part of the movement phase, if I have to cast before I move then I cast before regrouping and nothing in the rules exludes me from casting while falling back. Which means I am still technically falling back when I cast the power, so I am allowed to do it.

He could have cast first then regrouped but it's not illegal to cast while falling back. A little sketchy in the timing but in a general game everyone forgets a little timing every once in a while. It's generally not a problem but a little tension can make small things blow out of proportion.

Regrouping is at the start of the movement phase. I don't recall when fortune must be cast but there is a chance it comes down to the current player's turn to choose the order.
But in any case, you can definitely cast the power whilst falling back. There are specific things falling back prevents you from doing, and casting isn't one of them.

 Super Ready wrote:
Regrouping is at the start of the movement phase.

Page 31 disagrees with you.

Blessings etc happen at the start of the movement phase (page 68)

Psychic powers can be manifested even if the psyker is falling back or has gone to ground (page 67)

Regrouping happens immediately before the unit moves
(page 31)

Therefore the correct procedure is for Eldrad to cast the psychic powers at the start of the phase, and then attempt to regroup before he moves (after all start of turn/movement phase actions have been completed). The Eldar player does not get tho choose which to do first as they are not simultaneous.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Super Ready wrote:
Regrouping is at the start of the movement phase.

Page 31 disagrees with you.

Page 31 indicates regrouping is in the movement phase but before they move. Still not clear it prevents "blessing" type powers but it states you can still shoot (snap shots).

Page 67 states you can cast even if falling back. One would presume this is to cover this whole area but because it is not there in black and white, this disagreement has appeared.

Blessings must be cast at the start of the movement phase. Regrouping rolls happen just before you move the unit. Like I said a little out of sequence but who hasn't done something similar a time or two. If you have 5 units the can move and you are moving all 5 you can choose to move a falling back unit last. It would hardly force the regroup roll to happen at the start of the movement phase. As an aside you can use other units to block movement forcing your falling back unit to go around and slow their fall back, to save the destruction of a unit you need or deny the points for it's death.

Has Fortune been errata'd to be a Blessing? I hadn't heard that. I've seen (most) players argue that psychic powers that came out before the new classification system are not forced into one of the power categories unless explicitly written. (Meaning Fortune is not a Blessing.)

In which case it has to be used at the start of the Eldar turn (which largely amounts to the same thing) and can totally be cast while you're falling back.

(As a side note Gravmyr, I didn't know you could move voluntary units before retreating ones! I thought it was the opposite. I'll have to look into that now that I've picked up an army without ATSKNF. Thanks! )

@jimsolo Not that I saw when I checked it but I could have missed it.

Edit: The eldar faq is gone from what I can tell but it doesn't look like it will matter much longer anyway.

 Jimsolo wrote:
(As a side note Gravmyr, I didn't know you could move voluntary units before retreating ones! I thought it was the opposite. I'll have to look into that now that I've picked up an army without ATSKNF. Thanks! )

That one's a very common mistake... You haven't had to move Falling Back units first for a very, very long time (possibly not since 2nd edition, but I would have to check to be sure), but a lot of players still think that you do.

Yep this is a timing issue.

Powers that have to be cased at the start of the turn/movement phase, same thing, go first. Even if regrouping tests where 'start of the movement phase' and, not when the model is moving, it still wouldn't matter. FAQ's on regards to simultaneous timing issues show that the player whose turn it is decides which come first under the clause found on page 9. As falling back does not create any limitation that prevents you from casting, and this is highlighted on the above mentioned pages that there is no limitation. This means your opponent has no grounds to deny you a psychic test rule wise.

Now they can be a prick and argue that you 'passed' during the appropriate timing, so therefore can not cast it now, but that is a completely different problem. One we can't help you with as we are not there to smack him around a bit so he becomes less of a 'Those *** Guys.' I, personally, will let you do something 'out of sequence' if it is clear you intended to do so but overlooked said timing. I might still put some limitations in place, in this case make you measure from the position your model would of been in prior to consolidation, but I feel that would be understandable.

Leeway has to be given as we are all human and that makes us think in abstracts more often then not. We are not cold calculating machines that always do everything in the right sequence of events. I would fee it is bad sportsmanship should I not give you some benefit of the doubt over something as easily overlooked as the correct timing of events.

 Jimsolo wrote:
Has Fortune been errata'd to be a Blessing?

It is not a blessing but it is cast at the same time.

Gravmyr wrote:
@jimsolo Not that I saw when I checked it but I could have missed it.

Edit: The eldar faq is gone from what I can tell but it doesn't look like it will matter much longer anyway.

Correction the Eldar FAQ for the 4th edition codex is gone. There is still an Eldar FAQ.

JinxDragon wrote:
Yep this is a timing issue.

Powers that have to be cased at the start of the turn/movement phase, same thing, go first. Even if regrouping tests where 'start of the movement phase' and not when the model is moving it still wouldn't matter. FAQ's on regards to timing issues show that the player whose turn it is decides which come first.

As falling back does not create any limitation that prevents you from casting, and this is highlighted on the above mentioned pages. This means your opponent has no grounds to deny you a psychic test rule wise. They can be a prick and argue that you 'passed' during the appropriate timing, so therefore can not cast it now, but that is a completely different problem.

I, personally, will let you do something 'out of sequence' if it is clear you intended to do so but overlooked said timing. I might still put some limitations in place, in this case make you measure from the position your model would of been in prior to consolidation, but that is understandable as he would of been there had you cast it in the proper sequence.

Leeway has to be given as we are all human and that makes us think in abstracts more often then not, which means we don't always follow every step in order like a cold calculating machine.

It seem the general consensus is that I was right. I didn't forget to cast the power though, I was told I could not because I had to regroup etc under our understanding of the order in which you act.

Currently we are playing: Reserves, re-group rolls, psychic powers, movement (possibly wrong)

The correct order is
Reserves/Psychic Powers (assuming Psyker is already on the table)
Movement/Re-group rolls (when the unit goes to move).

Ah, if you where told you couldn't then they where clearly in the wrong and you can rub it in their face with the correct paragraphs in the main rule books.

Apologies for being wrong on regrouping's timing, didn't have the book to hand. So that makes this one pretty clear then.

Yup. FYI, I think 4th ed was the last time Regrouping happened at the start of the movement phase, rather than when the individual unit is moved.

I missed this change for the first year or more of 5th ed, and Jay Woodcock surprised me with it and beat me in a GT game thanks to it; I had broken a squad of his Genestealers and they were under half and running, and he was able to move a Synapse creature into range of them the following turn before they fell back again.