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Does anyone have an interest in creating a WWI/RCW mod for Flames of War? I'd be interested in starting this but it's a fairly large task.

If anyone has any interest, ideas or resources available I'd be interested to hear about it.

What time period during WW1 were you thinking? The armies that began the fighting in 1914 were very different than those that finished it.

I probably could help out some. As for forces wise i probably would like to the United states.
As for me i am wanting to do a open timeline Sci fi game in 15mm if maybe someone would help me withthat i would return the fav.

It seems that 1916/17 onwards would be the best bet to begin with. That would also give the most options for participant countries, access to tanks and the most compatibility for crossover with RCW.

Does anyone know any sites for company/battalion structure for WWI armies?

i found this http://wwi.lib.byu.edu/index.php/U.S._Army_Order_of_Battle


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 col. krazy kenny wrote:
i found this http://wwi.lib.byu.edu/index.php/U.S._Army_Order_of_Battle

was theatre going to be Europe? just curious.

Here:

German organization changes 1914-1918
http://www.worldwar1.com/sfgermreorg.htm

German organization 1914
http://www.worldwar1.com/sfgarmy.htm

I had put some thought to the late war (1917-1918) german army. There was still a lot of emphasis on nationality within the army. While obviously you can't create special rules for every province of germany you could have different ratings for German (just the generic troops), Prussian and Bavarian Soliders.

For example:

German: CT, Stormtrooper
Bavarian: CV, Mountaineers, Stormtrooper
Prussian: CV, Unflappable, Stormtrooper

@ col. krazy kenny: Thanks, is there anything about squad/platoon sizes on that site or allocation and type of machine guns?

@ EmilCrane: Ok, I get the following for a 1918 German Infantry Platoon

36 men in a platoon, 45 in a platoon with a rifle grenade squad so 9 men in a rifle grenade squad. 2 rifles squads and 2 light machineguns squads in a platoon. 6 men in a light machinegun squad means that there are 24 riflemen in the rifle squads (12+12+6+6=36).

Except the same site says there are 9 men in a rifle squad.

Anyhow.

Combat Platoons:
Two to three rifle platoons (two of which can have an optional rifle grenade platoon)

Weapons Platoons
One to three Machinegun Platoons (2x HMG)
One Mortar Platoon (4x Light Trench Mortars)

Divisional Support (everything else including the following, where available)
Storm troopers, Tanks, Engineers, Field Artillery, Howitzers, Cavalry, Aircraft and so on.

I'm not 100% on the sites historical accuracy, most history books are very vague on actual unit org for ww1, as most vets didn't concern themselves with things like that in first hand accounts. There are probably several good books out there but they're not at my university. I'm certainly willing to help in any way I can however this is a great idea.

One thing you need to bear in mind is that sections and platoons were not always the tactical unit.

generally forces operated at a company level, with that often being the lowest form of tactical unit.

Small unit operations are generally seen within the Stormtrooper infiltration tactics that develop at the end of the war.

As for artillery, these are generally used to fire either pre-planned barrages or designated shoots. they would not be 'on-call' to troops doing the actual fighting as very little in the way of close artillery support existed as the technology to do it wasnt there.

The Stormtrooper tactics did involve the use of guns, generally cut-down 77mm or captured Tsarist 76.2mm guns being advanced with the troops on the ground to provide a direct fire capability, but such things should be a rarity.

You really need to focus on a specific period of the war as so much changed from 1914 to 1918.

 George Spiggott wrote:
@ col. krazy kenny: Thanks, is there anything about squad/platoon sizes on that site or allocation and type of machine guns?

@ EmilCrane: Ok, I get the following for a 1918 German Infantry Platoon

36 men in a platoon, 45 in a platoon with a rifle grenade squad so 9 men in a rifle grenade squad. 2 rifles squads and 2 light machineguns squads in a platoon. 6 men in a light machinegun squad means that there are 24 riflemen in the rifle squads (12+12+6+6=36).

Except the same site says there are 9 men in a rifle squad.

Anyhow.

Combat Platoons:
Two to three rifle platoons (two of which can have an optional rifle grenade platoon)

Weapons Platoons
One to three Machinegun Platoons (2x HMG)
One Mortar Platoon (4x Light Trench Mortars)

Divisional Support (everything else including the following, where available)
Storm troopers, Tanks, Engineers, Field Artillery, Howitzers, Cavalry, Aircraft and so on.

Couldnt we just base them as a 5 and a 4 like the rifle /mg plattoons?

These are set to company level, but may give you some ideas...

http://www.fireandfury.com/orbats/ww1.pdf


The MGs were not initially part of the rifle sections. They were divided into 'gun groups' and 'rifle groups' as more MGs became available and to allow independant fire and movement of the different sections.

Each company had three platoons divided into four 18 man sections, which sub-divided into two 9 man 'Gruppe'. Orignally this was an admininistrative arrangement and served no tactical purpose until the MG08/15 began to be issued. By the end of 1917 each company had six MG08/15s issued at two per platoon. One of the sections would be issued with the two MGs at one per 'gruppe'.

This gives three rifle sections and one MG section per platoon.

By the end of 1918, some Sturmtruppen companies had as many as 30+ MG08/15s per company, allowing an issue of around 10 per platoon. These then spreadinto the Gruppes so that each section had a rifle squad and an MG squad.

So again, the period of the war you wish to recreate becomes important. Sturmtruppen in 1918 vary greatly from those in 1916 or 1917 in terms of equipment issue.

its difficult to give a specific and generic example as Sturmtruppen organisation varied greatly from unit to unit, in terms of the number of companies and the numbers of men, plus the numbers of heavy weapons issued and how they were assigned.

 col. krazy kenny wrote:
Couldnt we just base them as a 5 and a 4 like the rifle /mg plattoons?

We can, I am wondering if the picture of the six man LMG squad is correct. If it's a 9 man squad then the maths and basing gets much easier. Reading between the lines of what P wrote this seems to be the case.

So:

Platoon =

1x Command team (officer and two men borrowed from the LMG squads)
2x rifle squads (5x + 4x men each)
2x LMG squad (5x men + 3x men each)
1x Rifle grenade squad (5x + 4x men) (optional)

so...

1x Command rifle team (3 men)
6x rifle teams (4x 5 men 2x 4 men)
2x LMG teams (2x 3 men)

36 men + officer over 9 teams/bases with an optional additional 9 men (2 teams/bases) of rifle grenades.

@ Big P: This would be the basic tactical/game element. I can bump them to companies as the main game element but that may get a bit unwieldy with up to 30 bases being moved at once. 9 to 11 bases is a fairly large platoon formation in FoW.

AFAIK rifle grenades are not covered as a separate weapon in FoW. My immediate thought is to count them as 50mm light mortar teams (from the WWII British lists).

George, that looks right to me as a generic 1917 - 18 Sturmtruppen platoon.

The 1918 Gruppe breakdown would be (and this is my best guess at a 'generic' estimate based on Ian Drury's work on the subject, there really is massive variation in organisations);

PHQ
Section 1 (Rifle Gruppe, Gun Gruppe)
Section 2 (Rifle Gruppe, Gun Gruppe)
Section 3 (Rifle Gruppe, Gun Gruppe)
Section 4 (Rifle Gruppe, Gun Gruppe)

Section four could also have MG08s in their heavier form and act as a 'heavy section'.

Each Gruppe would be nine men, with 2 to 3 MG08/15s in each gun Gruppe. They could project alot of firepower, which was the idea given the small numbers of men. However some units had even more LMGs, adding captured Lewis guns to the rifle gruppen.

With rifle grenades, you could treat them as light mortars, or could you build in a bonus to firing? A standard tactic was to shower a position with rifle grenades and MG fire while the rifle gruppen closed on the position to assault it. Often specialist assault troops would be employed and they would carry large numbers of grenades to throw into enemy positions.

At company level you would also have flammenwerfers, with 2 - 3 men per flamethrower and artillery pieces - both the 77mm, 76.2mm and the small 37mm. They also used Minenwerfers too.

I will look into it a bit more over the weekend and see if I have any actual examples of platoon organisations for actual units to give you some ideas.

The French VB rifle grenade teams from the Bliutzkrieg book have the following stats:

Range= 8", RoF= 2, AT=1, FP= 4+

They are infantry teams with the ability to fire over friendly teams.

Short ranged light mortars basically.

Big P wrote:George, that looks right to me as a generic 1917 - 18 Sturmtruppen platoon.

The 1918 Gruppe breakdown would be (and this is my best guess at a 'generic' estimate based on Ian Drury's work on the subject, there really is massive variation in organisations);

PHQ
Section 1 (Rifle Gruppe, Gun Gruppe)
Section 2 (Rifle Gruppe, Gun Gruppe)
Section 3 (Rifle Gruppe, Gun Gruppe)
Section 4 (Rifle Gruppe, Gun Gruppe)

Section four could also have MG08s in their heavier form and act as a 'heavy section'.

Are we comparing like for like here? I'm following the website linked to a few posts ago for a 1918 infantry company. Is this a specific Stormtrooper organisation as an exception to the standard 1918 infantry company, or something else?

Palindrome wrote:The French VB rifle grenade teams from the Bliutzkrieg book have the following stats:

Range= 8", RoF= 2, AT=1, FP= 4+

They are infantry teams with the ability to fire over friendly teams.

Short ranged light mortars basically.

Can they also fire as rifles? (Range= 16", RoF= 1, AT=2, FP= 6+) Those stats will do nicely either way?

It occurs to me that MG08/15 teams should perhaps be MG teams not LMG teams especially if they're intended to advance and assault as part of Stormtrooper platoons.

 George Spiggott wrote:
Can they also fire as rifles? (Range= 16", RoF= 1, AT=2, FP= 6+) Those stats will do nicely either way?.

They have no rifle stats and as they are infantry teams they don't benefit from the "gun teams can fire as rifles" rule, its an easy thing to change though.

 George Spiggott wrote:
Are we comparing like for like here? I'm following the website linked to a few posts ago for a 1918 infantry company. Is this a specific Stormtrooper organisation as an exception to the standard 1918 infantry company, or something else?

Yes, sorry, that would be Sturmtruppen, they were organised very differently to regular troops. I think the Jagers had a different organisation too, but I'd have to check that out.

Palindrome wrote:They have no rifle stats and as they are infantry teams they don't benefit from the "gun teams can fire as rifles" rule, its an easy thing to change though.

Still I think they'll suffice. Good find.

Big P wrote:Yes, sorry, that would be Sturmtruppen, they were organised very differently to regular troops. I think the Jagers had a different organisation too, but I'd have to check that out.

Right, the extra MGs (and other kit) are easy to account for. I think the important bit of information is that the platoon appears to be a 'full size' 1914 style platoon rather than the reduced size platoon for the regular infantry.

It should be easy to devise a 'divisional support' Sturmtruppen platoon to add to the regular infantry list.

Does anyone know where sharpshooters/snipers fit in to the organisation? Also anything on the Brits or anything more detailed for the US?

Also here's the Wiki for the MG08/15 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MG_08

I'm still undecided as to whether it should count as an MG or an LMG team (maybe with ROF 4). The standard version (the MG08) should definitely count as an HMG team.

I have something on snipers during the Great War so will check... I seem to remember something about designated 'Marksman' units being used along the front.

British for 1918? Yer think I may have something... Can look for AEF too.

I have found a few more things for the usa.
So far i got AEP . Which conists of Marine,National guard and regular divisions. All late 17-18.

I made some notes for British organisation then lost the link.

Anyhow:

British Platoon = 4 Sections + Officer. Section = NCO + 12
Section = 5 + 4 + 4, making a full platoon 13 bases inc. command.

Unfortunately I've no idea of the date or the allocation of machineguns.

You may find this interesting http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=125663

Interesting, similar to the German organisation further up the thread.

British Platoon (early 1918)

Officer
Rifle Section (Rifle team x 5 + Rifle team x4)
Rifle Grenade Section (Rifle grenade team x 5 + Rifle grenade team x4)
Lewis Gun Section (1x Lewis gun?) (Rifle team x5 + LMG team x4)
Bomber section (Rifle team x5 w/ special rules?)

That gives us 8 bases (3x rifle team, 2x rifle grenade, 1x "bomber", 1x LMG and Command rifle team).

How should we treat bomber teams?

 George Spiggott wrote:

How should we treat bomber teams?

Rifle teams with a bonus in assaults?

I thought about that, but is it really worth it for just one base. To be honest I think the best solutions are either treat them as rifle grenade teams (and turn a blind eye to the extra range) or just treat them as rifle teams (and ignore the grenades).

 George Spiggott wrote:


Unfortunately I've no idea of the date or the allocation of machineguns.

1916 one Lewis gun per platoon with the Vickers MMGs moved to the MGC.

1917 Lewis section added to platoon with one gun and nine men.

1918 second Lewis added to the platoon.

You need to build in the inherent weapon difference for LMGs. The MG08/15 was less mobile but had larger volume of fire, while the Lewis was more mobile but didnt produce as much sustained fire.

Big P wrote:
You need to build in the inherent weapon difference for LMGs. The MG08/15 was less mobile but had larger volume of fire, while the Lewis was more mobile but didnt produce as much sustained fire.

Making the former an LMG team and the latter an MG team will solve that.

Dont you mean the other way round?

Big P wrote:
Dont you mean the other way round?

Not in FoW

MG teams get 3 shots, LMG teams get 5 and HMG teams get 6.

Yeah, game terms. Some of FoWs game terms can be a little counter-intuitive but I'm pretty sure I've made the right call.