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 Kain wrote:

 Lothar wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:

Lothar wrote:-Vendetta (great unit and the only really good AT in IG codex)

Wait, what? I've killed an awful lot of vehicles in 6th edition so far, and not a single one has been killed using a vendetta.

There's a LOT of anti-tank in the guard codex, if you're willing to believe that the codex is a book with lots of stuff in it, rather than a one-page pamphlet comprised of what you find on page 101.

I have also killed a lot of vehicles with something else than Vendetta. For example with deep striking Stormies. That does not mean they are a really good AT unit...

My maximum anti-tank Pask Vanquisher for my Valhallans has sniped away more vehicles than I can count. Some games have been decided by it turn one killing a Land Raider. CREEEEEEDing in some LRDs up the other guy's tailpipe has often turned their parking lots inside out. My Medusa bastion breachers whenever I bring them out make everyone scared to bring their vehicles out of cover because the moment they do, BAM S10 Armorbane shots. With three firing at one target that is virtually a guaranteed vehicle kill. Perfect for blasting that Baneblade or Titan.

If you think your Pask Vanquisher is a good AT option, I can only rest my case...And about your other "good" AT options...you should probably play against more competitive armies and/or players to find out which units are good.

 Lothar wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 Lothar wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:

Lothar wrote:-Vendetta (great unit and the only really good AT in IG codex)

Wait, what? I've killed an awful lot of vehicles in 6th edition so far, and not a single one has been killed using a vendetta.

There's a LOT of anti-tank in the guard codex, if you're willing to believe that the codex is a book with lots of stuff in it, rather than a one-page pamphlet comprised of what you find on page 101.

I have also killed a lot of vehicles with something else than Vendetta. For example with deep striking Stormies. That does not mean they are a really good AT unit...

My maximum anti-tank Pask Vanquisher for my Valhallans has sniped away more vehicles than I can count. Some games have been decided by it turn one killing a Land Raider. CREEEEEEDing in some LRDs up the other guy's tailpipe has often turned their parking lots inside out. My Medusa bastion breachers whenever I bring them out make everyone scared to bring their vehicles out of cover because the moment they do, BAM S10 Armorbane shots. With three firing at one target that is virtually a guaranteed vehicle kill. Perfect for blasting that Baneblade or Titan.

If you think your Pask Vanquisher is a good AT option, I can only rest my case...And about your other "good" AT options...you should probably play against more competitive armies and/or players to find out which units are good.

I primarily play apocalypse because if I'm going to be assed to drive through ungodly downtown traffic to the store, I'm going to go big. A bastion breacher battery can kill a titan or superheavy for much less than the cost of a titan. A pask vanq in the right place has meant the difference between my valhallans having to suck on a brass scorpion up the tailpipe and a smoking wreck and some crying khornate berzerkers.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
Wait, what? I've killed an awful lot of vehicles in 6th edition so far, and not a single one has been killed using a vendetta.

For once I have to agree with you on a Vendetta-related topic. I don't know how anyone could possibly look at the IG codex and think that the Vendetta is the only good anti-tank unit in the codex. It isn't even the best pure anti-tank unit, it just comes with so many other advantages (AA, transport, durability) that you can accept less than perfect anti-tank ability.

I wonder which unit in IG codex is better AT. Your "other" advantages are nothing outside the box, you have to count with them.

 Lothar wrote:
If you think your Pask Vanquisher is a good AT option, I can only rest my case...And about your other "good" AT options...you should probably play against more competitive armies and/or players to find out which units are good.

Vendetta x2 against AV 14: average 0.75 penetrating hit, for 260 points.

Vanquisher with Pask and hull LC against AV 14: average 0.7 penetrating hit, for 220 points.

So the Vanquisher out-shoots the Vendetta squadron per point each turn, and since the Vanquisher starts the game on the table it probably gets more shots per game, especially if you weight the critical early-game shots more heavily than late-game shots taken after most tanks have done their jobs.

Orks

Lootas ~ A strong addition to any list. You shouldn't ask yourself "should I take these?" but rather "why am I not taking them yet?" ~ that is, assuming you want a competitive list and don't mind using the same units as every other competitive Ork.

Big Guns ~ Incredibly tough, very cheap, and can murder MEQ, light troops, and most vehicles. Can even threaten AV 14, though I usually wouldn't bother with that unless I was desperate. Only downside is that they don't put out that much firepower for the Heavy Slot they take up. If I was playing an Apocalypse game with 40k only units, this would probably be the single most efficient choice in the dex, and heaven forbid they make it squadronable in the update...

SAG Mek ~ Stomps Marines, Terminators, blobs, and light vehicles. Threatens medium and even super heavy vehicles. On top of that, has enough of a fun element that I will take it in my less competitive lists. Amongst my favourite units from the dex in every regard.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Lothar wrote:
If you think your Pask Vanquisher is a good AT option, I can only rest my case...And about your other "good" AT options...you should probably play against more competitive armies and/or players to find out which units are good.

Vendetta x2 against AV 14: average 0.75 penetrating hit, for 260 points.

Vanquisher with Pask and hull LC against AV 14: average 0.7 penetrating hit, for 220 points.

So the Vanquisher out-shoots the Vendetta squadron per point each turn, and since the Vanquisher starts the game on the table it probably gets more shots per game, especially if you weight the critical early-game shots more heavily than late-game shots taken after most tanks have done their jobs.

That is all very nice, but as I said in my previous post, you can NOT ignore other advantages of some unit. If you do, you can also ignore a point costs of units when you compare them...

 Dakkamite wrote:
Orks

Lootas ~ A strong addition to any list. You shouldn't ask yourself "should I take these?" but rather "why am I not taking them yet?" ~ that is, assuming you want a competitive list and don't mind using the same units as every other competitive Ork.

Big Guns ~ Incredibly tough, very cheap, and can murder MEQ, light troops, and most vehicles. Can even threaten AV 14, though I usually wouldn't bother with that unless I was desperate. Only downside is that they don't put out that much firepower for the Heavy Slot they take up. If I was playing an Apocalypse game with 40k only units, this would probably be the single most efficient choice in the dex, and heaven forbid they make it squadronable in the update...

SAG Mek ~ Stomps Marines, Terminators, blobs, and light vehicles. Threatens medium and even super heavy vehicles. On top of that, has enough of a fun element that I will take it in my less competitive lists. Amongst my favourite units from the dex in every regard.

My answer to lootas is placing my XV8 plasma squad with commander within 12". How does gets hot for every dice roll sound?

My answer to lootas is placing my XV8 plasma squad with commander within 12". How does gets hot for every dice roll sound?

Sounds like I'm just getting a sneak preview of 6th edition Orks, according to the rumours.

At least, for as long as your shiny new toy survives.

 Lothar wrote:
That is all very nice, but as I said in my previous post, you can NOT ignore other advantages of some unit. If you do, you can also ignore a point costs of units when you compare them...

You said that IG have no good anti-tank options besides the Vendetta, not that Vendettas are a great unit. You don't take Vendettas because they're your best anti-tank option, you take them because they're a good anti-tank option that can also do a bunch of other stuff.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Lothar wrote:
That is all very nice, but as I said in my previous post, you can NOT ignore other advantages of some unit. If you do, you can also ignore a point costs of units when you compare them...

You said that IG have no good anti-tank options besides the Vendetta, not that Vendettas are a great unit. You don't take Vendettas because they're your best anti-tank option, you take them because they're a good anti-tank option that can also do a bunch of other stuff.

I'm pretty sure 3 lascannons will knock out a battle barge, I don't know what you're talking about.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Lothar wrote:
That is all very nice, but as I said in my previous post, you can NOT ignore other advantages of some unit. If you do, you can also ignore a point costs of units when you compare them...

You said that IG have no good anti-tank options besides the Vendetta, not that Vendettas are a great unit. You don't take Vendettas because they're your best anti-tank option, you take them because they're a good anti-tank option that can also do a bunch of other stuff.

Actually, I said both

I take Vendetta, because there is not a unit in the codex, which can destroy enemy vehicles at this cost, with this toughness(flyer), with this mobility and with posibility to have another squad inside. That makes it the best AT in the codex. I take the unit because it is AT, not because other things it can do. I would probably not bother with vendetta, if it would not be a great AT. I do not bother with Valkyrie for example...

Point for point the best Anti-Tank for Imperial Guard is a CCS with 4 meltas. 90 points for 4 melta shots that can command BID on itself hitting on a 3+ is a steal. Just make sure you don't make them your warlord. They do operate best when jumping out of plane to get into position. Unless you take them from the Elysian list then they get deep strike in there rules.

 Sinji wrote:
Point for point the best Anti-Tank for Imperial Guard is a CCS with 4 meltas. 90 points for 4 melta shots that can command BID on itself hitting on a 3+ is a steal. Just make sure you don't make them your warlord. They do operate best when jumping out of plane to get into position. Unless you take them from the Elysian list then they get deep strike in there rules.

Using Elysian list, your CCS can only have 1 special weapon...

Tau:
Manta, riptide, commanders

crayz_d wrote:
To be honest given the choice i wouldnt take any blood angel hq's but dante fits the tactics i use.

I dont use librarians due to playing eldar and nids making it stupid.

With his hitting on step 1 thats with his axe, he can hit at his full step with his pistol unless thats been faq'd which would be a shame because i pistol whipped a whole bunch of boys my last game.

Since this seems to have been passed over, I'll point it out.

EIther you are playing a different edition to the rest of us, or you need to read the rulebook again.

IG have killed my tanks with Vendettas and non-Vendetta stuff. Melta vets come to mind. As do any number or armored horrors. The Vendetta's problem is its effect on units that are used as hedges against helldrakes. Vendettas own other fliers that are just in lists to fly cap against helldrakes. So when we fight IG lists, all of our flier points are basically flushed. And that's usually too much of an uphill battle against an army like the IG.

My opinion.

IG

1. Vendetta.
2. CCS. What else can get you four special weapons in one mandatory unit, with te ability to get the best dedicated transport.
3. Manticore? A lot of possible high strength shot. The ap4 is the draw back.
3? Storm trooper. Twin link deep strike. Two plasma/Melta and plasma pistols.

For daemons I think it is

1. Lord of change (a combination of lvl 3 Divination, 2 greater gifts and staff of change makes this birdy real scary)

2.Daemonettes (haven't used them a whole lot but they are a great multi purpose unit, pretty fast for infantry on foot and with a herald with the exalted locus just devestating)

3. Skull Cannon of Khorne ( large blast s8 ignores cover, and gives any daemon unit charging the unit that this model shoots at frag grenades is just plain awesome... all for pretty cheap too)

DE:
-Venoms
-Haywire grenades (Not a unit, I know, but what else can deranged drug addicts hurl at a Land Raider and have a chance to actually blow it up?)
-Ravagers

DA:
-Terminators
-Dev squad
-Drop pod

I just now realized I only play two armies, both of which are the "Dark ____."

I consider a Dedicated Transport to be part of the unit that purchased it. Ignoring Special Characters as a Unit... I'd say the following (in no particular order):

Space Wolves:
- Rune Priest
- Grey Hunters
- Long Fangs

Dark Angels:
- Ravenwing Attack Squadron
- Deathwing Terminators
- Command Squad (all types)

Imperial Guard:
- Platoon
- Vendetta
- Manticore

Chaos Space Marines:
- Heldrake
- Chaos Lord
- Cultist

Orkz:
- Boyz
- Lootas
- Nobz (Bikers or Mega)

Grey Knights:
- Grey Knight Strike Squad
- Grey Knight Brother-Captain
- Vindicare Assassin

Necrons:
- Wraith
- Destroyer Lord
- Warriors

Tau:
- Kroot
- Pathfinders
- Sky Ray

Dark Eldar:
- Wracks in Venoms
- Hellions
- Wytches

Blood Angels:
- Assault Marines
- Sanguinary Priest
- Furioso Dreadnought w/ Blood Talons

Chaos Daemons:
- Plaguebearers
- Heralds
- Daemon Princes

Tyranids:
- Hive Tyrant
- Tervigon
- Termagaunt


If you factor in Special Characters there are a few of them that get in the top 3 easily, and there are several combinations that become awesome:

Space Wolves: Logan Grimnar + Wolf Guard
Grey Knights: Coteaz + Inquisitorial Henchmen
Tyranids: Swarmlord
Orks: Wazzdakka + Warbikes
Chaos Space Marines: Chaos Lord w/ Mark of Nurgle + Plague Marines

I'm not bothering with Eldar since they just got anew Codex which I haven't read and Black Templars are so dated now...

 Lothar wrote:

 Sinji wrote:
Point for point the best Anti-Tank for Imperial Guard is a CCS with 4 meltas. 90 points for 4 melta shots that can command BID on itself hitting on a 3+ is a steal. Just make sure you don't make them your warlord. They do operate best when jumping out of plane to get into position. Unless you take them from the Elysian list then they get deep strike in there rules.

Using Elysian list, your CCS can only have 1 special weapon...

Will have to check that one out. Been awhile since I read through that book. Sorry if I confused anyone.

 Sinji wrote:
Will have to check that one out. Been awhile since I read through that book. Sorry if I confused anyone.

Supposedly IA3 second edition gives CCS 4x special weapons.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Sinji wrote:
Will have to check that one out. Been awhile since I read through that book. Sorry if I confused anyone.

Supposedly IA3 second edition gives CCS 4x special weapons.

Nice haven't got that one. Is it even out yet? Still need that necron one as well. So hard to keep up with all these new books.

For mine -(in no particular order)
Necrons
preatorians with sword and pistol
Anni barges
Spyders

CSM
Helldrake
Khorn raptors
Auto cannon havoks

Deamons
Karnak with hounds
Skullcannon
Anything slaanesh

Nids
Mawlock
Ymgals
Tox adrenal hormagaunts

Dark eldar
The baron
Ravagers
Incubi

Orks
Lootas
SAG mek
Basic boyz (lots of)

Tau
Kroot snipers
Suites (the Swiss army knife of the dex)
Still playing the rest to find others though stealers are close


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not stealers stealth suites

 Sinji wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Sinji wrote:
Will have to check that one out. Been awhile since I read through that book. Sorry if I confused anyone.

Supposedly IA3 second edition gives CCS 4x special weapons.

Nice haven't got that one. Is it even out yet? Still need that necron one as well. So hard to keep up with all these new books.

It's out, and it's correct. CCS guardsmen with no upgrades can take special weapons.