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 Ahtman wrote:
After this thread what American values should we project onto Europe next and pretend that everyone feels that way? Soda cup size? Ford F150 in every driveway? Bloated military budgets? Kissing a breast is NC-17 but cutting it off is R or PG-13? I mean, really, there is a smorgasbord of things to choose from.

Of course, I think the other side should be doing the same as well, and find European values that the US should pretend to hold.

Everyone has there homework for the day.

Well, we have Tex Mex. Ducatis are great and all, but there's something romantic in a good old-fashioned Harley.

Here's my suggestion, the British stereotype as seen in the US is bowler hats, monocles, canes and moustaches right? Let's live up to it!!

Here is my take on it...

Criminals will always get guns...so it's kind of stupid arguing from that standpoint either way on the issue. Although by allowing them in Civilian ownership I would say it's easier for Criminals to get them

What a ban does do is reduce the amount of guns in active circulation and the chances of aficionado's, the mentally ill, idiots and well meaning owners the accidents, the potential use in a suicide, the potential to cause unintentional harm from an incomplete knowledge of events but decide that the best course of action is to use or discharge a firearm, a weapon designed to kill with a single finger pull....

Now people will make a lot about "Well people can kill with a hammer or Kitchen Knife" well yes they can, but it's not easy and you will have to tussle with an opponent. A firearm, loaded, well aimed, will kill with pull of a finger, and kill at range without endangering yourself up close, it is that easy.

So really you are protecting society from those moments when the Red mist descends and someone does something stupid, like the man who finds out his "Wife is sleeping around and shoots her in a fit of rage" granted he could stab here or straggle her, but without a gun the option isn't even there is it? Or the mentally ill or the drug crazed fool getting hold of these things and threatening or killing citizens.

So if he does want to do it he's going to have to do it up close and personal and hopefully he will realise the folly of his action.

We cannot ban kitchen knives, they are designed to cut things in the kitchen as a tool.

We can ban Firearms, because they are designed to kill Human beings, you can argue a Firearm is a tool, but it's a tool 99.9% of society doesn't need.

I only got one when I joined the Military as an Officer, and it was considered an honour and great responsibility to bear arms in the name of my Sovereign and my Country. I never took the weapon home, it lived in the Armoury or was issued when I was on duty, Exercise, Ceremonial duties or on OPS. Leave firearms in the Professionals hands, and do not think for one second that increasing Gun Ownership will reduce unnecessary deaths.

 Ahtman wrote:
After this thread what American values should we project onto Europe next and pretend that everyone feels that way? Soda cup size? Ford F150 in every driveway? Bloated military budgets? Kissing a breast is NC-17 but cutting it off is R or PG-13? I mean, really, there is a smorgasbord of things to choose from.

Of course, I think the other side should be doing the same as well, and find European values that the US should pretend to hold.

Everyone has there homework for the day.

What's wrong with the F-150? It's a solid truck, sure it might get stuck down some of the side streets in Europe, but if they knew what was good for them, they would have built their cities wider! And let's be honest, kissing a breast isn't NC-17, kissing a nipple is

 Super Ready wrote:

 Ahtman wrote:
After this thread what American values should we project onto Europe next and pretend that everyone feels that way? Soda cup size? Ford F150 in every driveway? Bloated military budgets? Kissing a breast is NC-17 but cutting it off is R or PG-13? I mean, really, there is a smorgasbord of things to choose from.

Of course, I think the other side should be doing the same as well, and find European values that the US should pretend to hold.

Everyone has there homework for the day.

Well, we have Tex Mex. Ducatis are great and all, but there's something romantic in a good old-fashioned Harley.

Here's my suggestion, the British stereotype as seen in the US is bowler hats, monocles, canes and moustaches right? Let's live up to it!!

Well if I want a motorcycle that actually functions I wouldn't get a Harley.

 Frazzled wrote:

 Super Ready wrote:

 Ahtman wrote:
After this thread what American values should we project onto Europe next and pretend that everyone feels that way? Soda cup size? Ford F150 in every driveway? Bloated military budgets? Kissing a breast is NC-17 but cutting it off is R or PG-13? I mean, really, there is a smorgasbord of things to choose from.

Of course, I think the other side should be doing the same as well, and find European values that the US should pretend to hold.

Everyone has there homework for the day.

Well, we have Tex Mex. Ducatis are great and all, but there's something romantic in a good old-fashioned Harley.

Here's my suggestion, the British stereotype as seen in the US is bowler hats, monocles, canes and moustaches right? Let's live up to it!!

Well if I want a motorcycle that actually functions I wouldn't get a Harley.

I'm not sure Italian engineering could be considered much better.

 dæl wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

 Super Ready wrote:

 Ahtman wrote:
After this thread what American values should we project onto Europe next and pretend that everyone feels that way? Soda cup size? Ford F150 in every driveway? Bloated military budgets? Kissing a breast is NC-17 but cutting it off is R or PG-13? I mean, really, there is a smorgasbord of things to choose from.

Of course, I think the other side should be doing the same as well, and find European values that the US should pretend to hold.

Everyone has there homework for the day.

Well, we have Tex Mex. Ducatis are great and all, but there's something romantic in a good old-fashioned Harley.

Here's my suggestion, the British stereotype as seen in the US is bowler hats, monocles, canes and moustaches right? Let's live up to it!!

Well if I want a motorcycle that actually functions I wouldn't get a Harley.

Ayah, agreed on that.

I'm not sure Italian engineering could be considered much better.

I'm going to ask a question out of general ignorance. (I do that a lot in the Off Topic forum...)

Firstly, not a gun fan at all. Figured I'd say that to start.

Couldn't it be said that by having an almost total ban on handguns could be quite helpful visually?

I mean, basically, if you see a gun on someones body out and about and it isn't a polisman or a dude with a floppy hat and a green cardigan in a field, you can quite reasonably surmise.

"He isn't supposed to have that. Wait. He really isn't supposed to have that, I should get away."

Then once you get away. "I should phone the police, I saw a handgun like object sticking out the back of someones hoody. Therefore they can do something about it."

 Compel wrote:
I'm going to ask a question out of general ignorance. (I do that a lot in the Off Topic forum...)

Firstly, not a gun fan at all. Figured I'd say that to start.

Couldn't it be said that by having an almost total ban on handguns could be quite helpful visually?

I mean, basically, if you see a gun on someones body out and about and it isn't a polisman or a dude with a floppy hat and a green cardigan in a field, you can quite reasonably surmise.

"He isn't supposed to have that. Wait. He really isn't supposed to have that, I should get away."

Then once you get away. "I should phone the police, I saw a handgun like object sticking out the back of someones hoody. Therefore they can do something about it."

You are talking about carrying a handgun in the UK right? Just making sure you're not also including the US in this, as many states have open and concealed carry laws.

Yeah, that was supposed to be the point of my question.

I pressed 'submit' before finishing the actual thought.

Also, for some reason, dakka thinks I'm american now. - I'm Scottish!

But basically, yeah. I'm imagining that the different attitudes and laws in the US might cause a different thought process.

Eg. "Ok, he does look a bit shifty but well, concealed carry laws, it's his right to have guns and he's not waving it about like a looney. I'm not gonna waste the polices time, off I go."

in a perfect world where we always saw the bad guys gun, without him seeing us, and had time to run away, and call the cops, who arrive before he notices you or leaves?

just look at that poor army bloke who was chopped up in broad daylight, took cops 20 minutes to respond.

dangerous people are going to target the innocent, normal people are almost always the first responders to crime. They need the tools to deal with it.

 easysauce wrote:
in a perfect world where we always saw the bad guys gun, without him seeing us, and had time to run away, and call the cops, who arrive before he notices you or leaves?

just look at that poor army bloke who was chopped up in broad daylight, took cops 20 minutes to respond.

dangerous people are going to target the innocent, normal people are almost always the first responders to crime. They need the tools to deal with it.

Indeed, everyone needs...full auto wiener dogs! There's never a report of bad guys attacking someone armed with a brace of full auto BADGER dogs.

 easysauce wrote:
normal people are almost always the first responders to crime. They need the tools to deal with it.

"Normal people" are the last people I want given lethal weaponry.

 easysauce wrote:
in a perfect world where we always saw the bad guys gun, without him seeing us, and had time to run away, and call the cops, who arrive before he notices you or leaves?

just look at that poor army bloke who was chopped up in broad daylight, took cops 20 minutes to respond.

dangerous people are going to target the innocent, normal people are almost always the first responders to crime. They need the tools to deal with it.

I'm sure he's complaining bitterly about it in heaven, to 20 dead five year olds, their dead teachers and a lot of ex-movie goers.

djones520 wrote:

 motyak wrote:
With no further stats. The further stats provided seem to directly contradict the initial statement

In the year the ban was passed, there were 4,903 fire arm offences recorded by police. In 2011 there were 6,285. In some years since the ban, there has been more then 10,000 offences.

I've gotta get to work, so can't keep digging for now, but the facts are the rates have climbed since the ban was passed. Whether it's 40%, 89%, or 10%, there is more gun violence in Britain now, then before the ban.

1. you are assuming "firearm offences" = "gun violence". However, I bet that it also includes "illegal possession" as a firearm offence, which would naturally increase after the ban, as suddenly many of those guns are now banned and thus illegal. It would be like declaring left-handed people to be illegal, and then wondering why crime suddenly went up 11% (1 in 9 people are southpaws, I believe).

2. you can tout 40% all you like, but without the rate, that percentage is meaningless drivel, and you know it. A change from one year to the next of 2 up to 3 is a 50% increase; but it's still only three.

What we should really be focusing on is the rate of lego weapon related crime. A ban on lego guns would just be taking the lego guns out of the hands of good children and putting them into the hands of hardened thugs like Billy Johnson who always steals the kickball during recess. Is that what we want?

 rubiksnoob wrote:
What we should really be focusing on is the rate of lego weapon related crime. A ban on lego guns would just be taking the lego guns out of the hands of good children and putting them into the hands of hardened thugs like Billy Johnson who always steals the kickball during recess. Is that what we want?

They can also be used as caltrops!

~Tim?

 Some_Call_Me_Tim? wrote:

 rubiksnoob wrote:
What we should really be focusing on is the rate of lego weapon related crime. A ban on lego guns would just be taking the lego guns out of the hands of good children and putting them into the hands of hardened thugs like Billy Johnson who always steals the kickball during recess. Is that what we want?

They can also be used as caltrops!

~Tim?

And the same pieces that your weapons are made of can make getaway vehicles. Lego is really the criminal's Swiss army knife

Lego bricks are officially the best Caltrops in the world, my sisters and Mother wouldn't enter my Bedroom for fear of crippling their feet...That was back in the *Ahem* 80's.

That Lego Technic stuff was the absolutely amazing / awful depending on your point of view...

1. you are assuming "firearm offences" = "gun violence". However, I bet that it also includes "illegal possession" as a firearm offence, which would naturally increase after the ban, as suddenly many of those guns are now banned and thus illegal. It would be like declaring left-handed people to be illegal, and then wondering why crime suddenly went up 11% (1 in 9 people are southpaws, I believe).

2. you can tout 40% all you like, but without the rate, that percentage is meaningless drivel, and you know it. A change from one year to the next of 2 up to 3 is a 50% increase; but it's still only three.

Good to see Common sense still thrives in Canada, couldn't agree with your Sentiments more QFT!

From what I've heard (I'll admit I'm not an expert,) don't criminals use unregistered firearms most of the time anyway? So the gun laws wouldn't really change anything in that sense seeing as they are illegally obtained anyway.

 Ardaric_Vaanes wrote:
From what I've heard (I'll admit I'm not an expert,) don't criminals use unregistered firearms most of the time anyway? So the gun laws wouldn't really change anything in that sense seeing as they are illegally obtained anyway.

Won't people drive drunk even if you make it illegal? Yeah, but as it turns out the number of annual drunk driving deaths and injuries plunged dramatically. No one believes it will go away, but you can make it more difficult for incidents to occur.

Theft is illegal as well, do we also want to make stealing legal, since having laws against it hasn't stopped it from happening? Come to think of it pretty much anything listed in the criminal justice system still occurs (which is why there are laws against them), so maybe we shouldn't even have a criminal justice system. While we are at it, having the best trained and equipped army hasn't kept there from being belligerent states and actors that get all uppity with us, so I guess we should get rid of them as well. Think of all the money we can save!

Oh and the title of this post is crazy..

"Britain wants her Guns Back?" Her??? It would be...

"Britannia wants her Gun's Back?" surely...



Hell there's big fish to fry than grabbing a few Small Arms...

"Britannia wants her Empire Back".

I'd settle for...

"Britannia wants to rule the waves again" but with a Naval Fleet the size of a Flotilla it ain't gonna happen.

I dealt with a Swedish transportation unit once in Europe due to a busted fighter from a air show. Every house hold in Sweden has a military grade rifle. Being I'm not Swedish...nor know any country that's crazy enough to try to invade...but to invade Sweden where mandatory enlistment (not sure females to) where you serve your time and leave the military with all your gear and weapon...where the government pays for ammo every year to keep you current on qualification...still can't get over the fact what a European sparrow did to the aircraft...anyway I digress......has anyone thought of Sweden? Actually as anyone in Britain thought about what would happen if access to fire arms was made readily available?......Ever seen what a Barn Owl does to a BlackHawk traveling 100 knots bouncing off the forward Mod and getting sucked down the #2 engine...that then FoD's out...that then goes to pieces...that then say pieces goes up into the Main Rotor blades...that then takes a tip cap off...that then strikes the tail rotors.....that we then then landed on a high school track field...almost lost the left landing strut...and tire...didn't even piss myself.....half a pack of smokes though....back to back with both pilots and the other crewchief...where were we?

 easysauce wrote:
in a perfect world where we always saw the bad guys gun, without him seeing us, and had time to run away, and call the cops, who arrive before he notices you or leaves?
just look at that poor army bloke who was chopped up in broad daylight, took cops 20 minutes to respond.
dangerous people are going to target the innocent, normal people are almost always the first responders to crime. They need the tools to deal with it.

I have heard many variants of this argument... the problem is that in all cases it winds up with *someone* being dead. We have also had cases of people being wrongly killed by firearms (by authorities no less) because they were believed to be dead. It's arguable that without any guns, those people would be alive today.

To completely nullify this particular example... two men instigated the attack. One had a gun. The other - the one who actually murdered the poor guy - used a machete. The only gun crime committed here was brandishing the weapon, however a man still died. Which proves the point - man will always find means to kill other men. Why make it easy for common people without training and/or better judgement to do so?

We don't need guns, but we do need a way to defend ourselves from crime.

 Jihadin wrote:
I dealt with a Swedish transportation unit once in Europe due to a busted fighter from a air show. Every house hold in Sweden has a military grade rifle. Being I'm not Swedish...nor know any country that's crazy enough to try to invade...but to invade Sweden where mandatory enlistment (not sure females to) where you serve your time and leave the military with all your gear and weapon...where the government pays for ammo every year to keep you current on qualification...still can't get over the fact what a European sparrow did to the aircraft...anyway I digress......has anyone thought of Sweden?

Sweden also has a radically different culture and mindset, and ignoring everything else just to focus on one part of it doesn't really work very well. If we can get everyone to adopt the rest of Sweden's values and lifestyles it may work, but outside that, it doesn't really work.

We don't need guns, we are doing just fine without them believe it or not.

 mwnciboo wrote:
Leave firearms in the Professionals hands ...

I'm of the opinion that someone in possession of a badge is not automatically in possession of superior accuracy, awareness, and mental clarity.

Ask that Dorner fella and those cops who shot up the truck thinking it contained him.

 MetalOxide wrote:
We don't need guns, we are doing just fine without them believe it or not.

I'm pretty fine with Britain setting its own gun policies.

But I do think it taking twenty minutes to get guys with guns to the scene of an ongoing crime is pretty ludicrous for a major metropolitan area. Guess it's a good thing those guys decided to stop at one.

Generally speaking, however, in the UK the police who wield guns *are* the professionals. You're not going to see Jimmy the Community Support Officer on firearms detail.

 Compel wrote:
Generally speaking, however, in the UK the police who wield guns *are* the professionals. You're not going to see Jimmy the Community Support Officer on firearms detail.

Good luck getting either on the scene on time though.