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One unit that constantly gets bashed in the Necron codex is Flayed Ones. They are the infiltrator unit of the army and one of the few melee oriented units as well. Most neocon players default to "necrons suck at melee" but often cite our Initiative 2 for this reason. While I can see their point, I couldn't help but notice Ork Boyz also have Initiative 2 yet orks are considered by many to be a horde melee army.

This got me thinking about Flayed Ones and how to have some fun with them.

Deep striking theme seems like a bad idea other than to divert shooting away from them and the same goes for doing an infiltration deployment (which I have rarely seen terrain setup to allow the 12" range.

Since they are infiltrators, they inherit ly have outflank. While it still produces a target/distraction for the enemy, it provides an interesting opportunity and a safer one for a larger unit.

Has anyone had any luck in using Flayed Ones for more than a distraction tactic? They aren't as good as wraiths but cost less and really just 3pts more than an ork 'ard boy (but have slightly better stats and RP).

For some reason I want to like them and am curious to hear other's experiences.

Why does I2 suck? Sweeping advance. Orks at model strength above 10 are fearless. Flayed Ones have no way to become fearless. Orks also have access to things like pain Boyz which grants FNP, and upgrades like characters with power fists. FOs can't even be joined by RC Lords or Crypteks. Your only options are to buff them with an Overlord or D. Lord and/or Special Characters. None of which get around the fact that you can lose a combat by 1 or 2 and greatly increase your chance of losing the whole squad and any attached characters on a die roll with the odds not in your favor when other armies are averaging an I4 or greater. Their only benefit is using them to harass with Imotehk's blood swarm nano scarabs. Allies assault units are in just about always a better option than FOs or just more Wraiths or Scarabs.

I'm one of the few people who use them regularly, and they always perform the role I set them at.

Don't stick to anyone of there deployments. See how the terrain and opponent is setup and choose the deployment accordingly.

The big advantage FOs have over most assault units is their RPP (resiliency per point) is very strong regardless of what is shooting at them (except Heavy Flamers, this is pretty much the only weapon profile that aren't great against).

So, to take advantage of everything they excel at, use their flexible deployment to get to an objective, if something is on the objective, kill it, otherwise contest it and GtG if the enemy starts dedicating firepower to them. A large squad will eat bullets all game long behind T4, 3+ cover save, and RP.

Another option is to keep them smaller (5 to 10) and use them as a distraction unit. The only thing I don't like about this strategy is it is too easy to wipe them in one round of shooting and bypass RP. RP is a big part of what makes them tick.

Good synergistic units are Imotehk (pin point DS and night fighting), Zandrek, and Destroyer Lord (Res Orb and PE).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Your only options are to buff them with an Overlord or D. Lord and/or Special Characters. None of which get around the fact that you can lose a combat by 1 or 2 and greatly increase your chance of losing the whole squad and any attached characters on a die roll with the odds not in your favor when other armies are averaging an I4 or greater. Their only benefit is using them to harass with Imotehk's blood swarm nano scarabs.

This is the most common objection. The reality is, with as many attacks as they poor out, LD 10, and the fact that most units you face simply aren't dedicated CC, the amount of times this will come into play is extremely limited, like I would say 1 in 20 games, if that.

Allies assault units are in just about always a better option than FOs or just more Wraiths or Scarabs.

Simply not true. Few assault units can eat bullets the way Flayed Ones can, not too mention including DS and Infiltrate. In a "shooty edition", an assault units RPP is extremely relevant.

You can have your opinion but do not telling me that mine is not true. I am not about to go through a ten page thread again with you as to why Flayed Ones Suck C'tan sized balls.

 NecronLord3 wrote:
You can have your opinion but do not telling me that mine is not true. I am not about to go through a ten page thread again with you as to why Flayed Ones Suck C'tan sized balls.

You made a factual statement that was incorrect. I was merely pointing out a very important area and very important role to illustrate how your statement was incorrect. I apologize if that came across in a negative way.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

 NecronLord3 wrote:
You can have your opinion but do not telling me that mine is not true. I am not about to go through a ten page thread again with you as to why Flayed Ones Suck C'tan sized balls.

You made a factual statement that was incorrect. I was merely pointing out a very important area and very important role to illustrate how your statement was incorrect. I apologize if that came across in a negative way.

My statement is not incorrect any assault unit with a 3+ save is better than flayed ones at "eating bullets" and our allied units can even bring FNP assault units with FNP.

My statement is not incorrect any assault unit with a 3+ save is better than flayed ones at "eating bullets" and our allied units can even bring FNP assault units with FNP.

RP, Ld10, and the ability to GtG for a 3++ (many assault units are fearless), quite simply makes gives them superior RPP. If you wish to propose a unit with FNP that you think is more resilient per point, I would be happy to consider it. Just the 4+ and RP alone makes them more resilient then Space Marines/point, and this isn't factoring in GtG or Night Fighting, which are quite relevant to a Necron list.

It will be interesting to see what, if any, changes for Flayed Ones will be in IA12 and if said changes will make then better.

 Zathras wrote:
It will be interesting to see what, if any, changes for Flayed Ones will be in IA12 and if said changes will make then better.

It's out. They move them to troops and give the whole unit shred for 10 points. Pretty awesome buffs. Sadly, I don't play many areas where IA is allowed.

You wouldn't outflank a genestealer brood even with catalyst or endurance on them, why would you outflank something worse than genestealers?

 Kain wrote:
You wouldn't outflank a genestealer brood even with catalyst or endurance on them, why would you outflank something worse than genestealers?

Because Genestealers are significantly less resilient. By miles, and miles, and miles.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

 Kain wrote:
You wouldn't outflank a genestealer brood even with catalyst or endurance on them, why would you outflank something worse than genestealers?

Because Genestealers are significantly less resilient. By miles, and miles, and miles.

FNP makes them about as tough and with tervigons and armywide access to biomancy it's easy to get. Also, Broodlords are fantastic units, to the point that stealers are mostly meatshields for them. With synapse they are fearless, and with a really good initiative they will be sweeping a lot and will be going first even if assaulted. Stealers are just better than codex flayed ones. They even score too.

For elites, comparing Flayed Ones to the gods of Ambush that are Ymgarl Genestealers is silly to the point of being surreal.

FNP makes them about as tough and with tervigons and armywide access to biomancy it's easy to get.

It gets them slightly closer, but your still comparing 16 point models+the cost of the model buffing them. They simply aren't anywhere near as efficient RPP, even with FNP

Also, Broodlords are fantastic units, to the point that stealers are mostly meatshields for them.

Now the unit is even more expensive...

With synapse they are fearless, and with a really good initiative they will be sweeping a lot and will be going first even if assaulted.

GS are good in CC. No argue that at all. They just never get there. Also, Fearless is detrimental to the purposes I need. Can't GtG.

Stealers are just better than codex flayed ones.

No, because they never get to CC. So all they ever end up being is extremely expensive 1 wound models with gakky saves.

They even score too.

Yeah, if they were only alive to take advantage of that ability. I would rather have a denial unit that lives then a scoring unit that doesn't. Ultimately, all I need to do is deny the objective anyway.

For elites, comparing Flayed Ones to the gods of Ambush that are Ymgarl Genestealers is silly to the point of being surreal.

Ymgarls are great ambushers. But they are also even more expensive, and even worse in an RPP comparison.

Ymgarls will always get into assault, because they can attack the moment they pop up, and by using S5 for the turn they massacre anything they charge short of a land raider.

Flayed ones pay for that 4+ save, which is negated by a crap ton of weapons. Biovores for example, turn flayed one blocks into piles of scrap before they can do anything, warriors too.

Stealers are fast, and when I do run them, I screen them with the termagaunts my Tevigons poop out for free, giving me cover at all times.

 Kain wrote:
Ymgarls will always get into assault, because they can attack the moment they pop up, and by using S5 for the turn they massacre anything they charge short of a land raider.

Yes, and when they are finished with the first unit they assault, they die to guns. Very expensively.

Flayed ones pay for that 4+ save, which is negated by a crap ton of weapons. Biovores for example, turn flayed one blocks into piles of scrap before they can do anything, warriors too.

You do realize you are comparing a 13 point model to a 16 point model right? So whatever Flayed Ones "pay" for their 4+, they are still superior to Genies in RPP. The biovore example is meaningless drivel. FOs have RP and cover. You aren't doing any real damage with Bios against them.

Stealers are fast, and when I do run them, I screen them with the termagaunts my Tevigons poop out for free, giving me cover at all times.

Which won't change the fact that they are 16 pt 1 W models with a crappy save, even if its a cover save.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

 Kain wrote:
Ymgarls will always get into assault, because they can attack the moment they pop up, and by using S5 for the turn they massacre anything they charge short of a land raider.

Yes, and when they are finished with the first unit they assault, they die to guns. Very expensively.

Flayed ones pay for that 4+ save, which is negated by a crap ton of weapons. Biovores for example, turn flayed one blocks into piles of scrap before they can do anything, warriors too.

You do realize you are comparing a 13 point model to a 16 point model right? So whatever Flayed Ones "pay" for their 4+, they are still superior to Genies in RPP. The biovore example is meaningless drivel. FOs have RP and cover. You aren't doing any real damage with Bios against them.

Stealers are fast, and when I do run them, I screen them with the termagaunts my Tevigons poop out for free, giving me cover at all times.

Which won't change the fact that they are 16 pt 1 W models with a crappy save, even if its a cover save.

If I've killed your royal court, murdered your tesla immortal brick, or popped your parking lots I've accomplished my mission. .

And Biovores fire barrage weapons. Your cover save is meaningless, your brick will be broken by three large blasts wounding on a 4+ which should in a single turn of shooting, devastate your unit, break it apart to the point that it's assault capabilities are negligable, and delay it's arrival because you're going to want to consolidate it now that you're at more than 2'' coherency between the front and back units now that the middle units are all dead.

And a 5+ cover save, especially with FNP, is actually not that bad. Especially when there are a whole slew of AP4 or better weapons that make your 4+ save meaningless anyway. Unlike you, I can quite easily ignore your cover save by just laying down barrage pieplates, Necrons last time I checked, were quite short on templates and barrage weapons, so I'll be keeping my saves.

Or because your flayed ones aren't scoring and are soaking up points that would usually go towards Scythe spam, I simply shoot your warriors off the table with some biovores while podded down Zoanthropes and Doom in a can mess up what remains of your gunline with Warp blasts, Leech shenanigans, and Cataclysm, Flyrants rearshot your transports into dust with BL devourers, The swarmlord, assuming this is a double FOC game, rolls Iron arm and endurance/warp speed and proceeds to devour unit after unit, Stonecrusher carnifexes run up and show you why a 2+ save carnifex with rerollable regeneration and AP1 crushing claws is terrifying, and I park tervigons and a few stealers for counter assault and termagaunts for cheap bodies onto the objectives and there's precisely feth all you can do about it.

Or you could do the smart thing and use a maximum threat overload necron list or scythespam and overwhelm my tyranids before I can pull off *my* maximum threat overload assault on you.

If I've killed your royal court, murdered your tesla immortal brick, or popped your parking lots I've accomplished my mission. .

I don't field a single unit you just mentioned. Not that it would make this any more relevant.

And Biovores fire barrage weapons. Your cover save is meaningless, your brick will be broken by three large blasts wounding on a 4+ which should in a single turn of shooting, devastate your unit, break it apart to the point that it's assault capabilities are negligable, and delay it's arrival because you're going to want to consolidate it now that you're at more than 2'' coherency between the front and back units now that the middle units are all dead.

Barrage doesn't ignore area terrain. The rest is meaningless speculation.

And a 5+ cover save, especially with FNP, is actually not that bad. Especially when there are a whole slew of AP4 or better weapons that make your 4+ save meaningless anyway. Unlike you, I can quite easily ignore your cover save by just laying down barrage pieplates, Necrons last time I checked, were quite short on templates and barrage weapons, so I'll be keeping my saves.

Are we really doing this? This isn't a Flayed Ones versus Nids thread dude. Your Genestealers are still considerable more expensive and easier to kill. None of your elaborations magically make that untrue.

Or because your flayed ones aren't scoring and are soaking up points that would usually go towards Scythe spam, I simply shoot your warriors off the table with some biovores while podded down Zoanthropes and Doom in a can mess up what remains of your gunline with Warp blasts, Leech shenanigans, and Cataclysm, Flyrants rearshot your transports into dust with BL devourers, The swarmlord, assuming this is a double FOC game, rolls Iron arm and endurance/warp speed and proceeds to devour unit after unit, Stonecrusher carnifexes run up and show you why a 2+ save carnifex with rerollable regeneration and AP1 crushing claws is terrifying, and I park tervigons and a few stealers for counter assault and termagaunts for cheap bodies onto the objectives and there's precisely feth all you can do about it.

Riveting.

Or you could do the smart thing and use a maximum threat overload necron list or scythespam and overwhelm my tyranids before I can pull off *my* maximum threat overload assault on you.

LOL.

Internets.....wow.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

If I've killed your royal court, murdered your tesla immortal brick, or popped your parking lots I've accomplished my mission. .

I don't field a single unit you just mentioned. Not that it would make this any more relevant.

And Biovores fire barrage weapons. Your cover save is meaningless, your brick will be broken by three large blasts wounding on a 4+ which should in a single turn of shooting, devastate your unit, break it apart to the point that it's assault capabilities are negligable, and delay it's arrival because you're going to want to consolidate it now that you're at more than 2'' coherency between the front and back units now that the middle units are all dead.

Barrage doesn't ignore area terrain. The rest is meaningless speculation.

And a 5+ cover save, especially with FNP, is actually not that bad. Especially when there are a whole slew of AP4 or better weapons that make your 4+ save meaningless anyway. Unlike you, I can quite easily ignore your cover save by just laying down barrage pieplates, Necrons last time I checked, were quite short on templates and barrage weapons, so I'll be keeping my saves.

Are we really doing this? This isn't a Flayed Ones versus Nids thread dude. Your Genestealers are still considerable more expensive and easier to kill. None of your elaborations magically make that untrue.

Or because your flayed ones aren't scoring and are soaking up points that would usually go towards Scythe spam, I simply shoot your warriors off the table with some biovores while podded down Zoanthropes and Doom in a can mess up what remains of your gunline with Warp blasts, Leech shenanigans, and Cataclysm, Flyrants rearshot your transports into dust with BL devourers, The swarmlord, assuming this is a double FOC game, rolls Iron arm and endurance/warp speed and proceeds to devour unit after unit, Stonecrusher carnifexes run up and show you why a 2+ save carnifex with rerollable regeneration and AP1 crushing claws is terrifying, and I park tervigons and a few stealers for counter assault and termagaunts for cheap bodies onto the objectives and there's precisely feth all you can do about it.

Riveting.

Or you could do the smart thing and use a maximum threat overload necron list or scythespam and overwhelm my tyranids before I can pull off *my* maximum threat overload assault on you.

LOL.

Internets.....wow.

Oh I get it, you're one of those people who fields things generally not regarded as very good in an attempt to be different. Tell me, are your successes from the actual merits of your units or because they're so off base most people usually don't prepare for them? Once people start adjusting to off-base lists their success rate drops immensely. See Ailaros' blog to see how his Deep striking storm troopers, usually regarded as okay if pricey, went from winning many victories for him to usually just getting slaughtered when the meta adjusts to them.

Also, in the same slot are triarch stalkers, which have two shot multimeltas and flamers and can provide twinlinking out the wazoo for your shooters. Also in the same slot are Death marks, whom when paired with Despair-teks are gods. Also in the same slot are C'tan who can provide all sorts of wackiness for your army and are also one of the rare monstrous creatures with a good invulnerable save. Also in the same slot are Lychguards...but nobody likes Lychguards ever since it was ruled that they can't have axes. And triarch praetorians are just plain garbage, this is indisputable.

Also, sure I can't nullify your area terrain save, but you're going to have to leave that area sooner or later if you want to get into assault (where you will likely have to eat overwatch). You'll need to cross open ground sooner or later, and when you do the sky is going to fall on you. Not to mention that things like whirlwinds, which are also quite competitive can flat out just say "no save for you." And of course manticore batteries will ruin your warriors and flayed one's day. But honestly, other than MEQs, TEQS, and MCs, what doesn't a large number of Manticores ruin?

And my genestealers may cost more, but they're faster with fleet, more effective in assault period thanks to rending, don't get swept off the board, and most importantly don't go last when facing anything that isn't an Ork. If you charge your flayed ones into Grey Hunters, first you'll chew on overwatch, then you'll get punched in the face by the space wolves, then you get to attack with weapons that don't pierce their saves, lose combat, then get swept. Stealers will at least penetrate their saves with rending and go before them. But of course no one fields stealers for assault anymore, but Ymgarls can have a similar if not better effect.

Oh I get it, you're one of those people who fields things generally not regarded as very good in an attempt to be different. Tell me, are your successes from the actual merits of your units or because they're so off base most people usually don't prepare for them? Once people start adjusting to off-base lists their success rate drops immensely. See Ailaros' blog to see how his Deep striking storm troopers, usually regarded as okay if pricey, went from winning many victories for him to usually just getting slaughtered when the meta adjusts to them.

More idle speculation with nothing to back it up.

Also, in the same slot are triarch stalkers, which have two shot multimeltas and flamers and can provide twinlinking out the wazoo for your shooters. Also in the same slot are Death marks, whom when paired with Despair-teks are gods. Also in the same slot are C'tan who can provide all sorts of wackiness for your army and are also one of the rare monstrous creatures with a good invulnerable save. Also in the same slot are Lychguards...but nobody likes Lychguards ever since it was ruled that they can't have axes. And triarch praetorians are just plain garbage, this is indisputable.

Oh, you mean there are other things in the Elite Slot? NO gak? Damn. I must have gotten a defective codex.

Also, Triarch Praetorians are far from garbage as a DLord escort. You have no idea what you are talking about.

Also, sure I can't nullify your area terrain save, but you're going to have to leave that area sooner or later if you want to get into assault (where you will likely have to eat overwatch). You'll need to cross open ground sooner or later, and when you do the sky is going to fall on you.

I have Deep Strike/Infiltrate/Outflank. More often then not, I deploy them where I want them. They don't cross the open field often. You simply have no frame of reference on how this unit operates.

Not to mention that things like whirlwinds, which are also quite competitive can flat out just say "no save for you."

Incorrect. Check the whirlwind stats again and come back to me bud.

And of course manticore batteries will ruin your warriors and flayed one's day. But honestly, other than MEQs, TEQS, and MCs, what doesn't a large number of Manticores ruin?

Who knows? Not even sure what this has to do with anything...except to highlight that Flayed Ones will get RP no matter what, and will live through most scenarios you wish to dream up.

And my genestealers may cost more, but they're faster with fleet, more effective in assault period thanks to rending, don't get swept off the board, and most importantly don't go last when facing anything that isn't an Ork.

Yeah, GS are better in assault. Assuming they get there. Never argued that. In fact I stated it quite explicitly. You simply don't want to admit that Flayed Ones are significantly more resilient to shooting.

If you charge your flayed ones into Grey Hunters, first you'll chew on overwatch, then you'll get punched in the face by the space wolves, then you get to attack with weapons that don't pierce their saves, lose combat, then get swept.

Ah yes, the classic Grey Hunters rebuttal.

Stealers will at least penetrate their saves with rending and go before them. But of course no one fields stealers for assault anymore, but Ymgarls can have a similar if not better effect.

Yeah, you know why people don't field Stealers? Because they are very expensive bullet magnets. Flayed Ones aren't. Flayed Ones are tied with Warriors as the most resilient per point unit in the Necron codex versus the widest variety of weapons. The big advantage being, Flayed Ones can push a unit off an objective rather efficiently in most cases. Warriors can't.

Given that space wolves are everywhere, whether or not you can beat GH in assault or on a point basis is a very valid comparison. GHs, Plague Marines, Boys and Tervis are a golden standard for a reason. If you can't force these from an objective with what you''re using you should reconsider.

Also the Ailaros blog is legit, his DS ing stormies stomped face until people adjusted to them, at which point they usually just died without doing anything of note.

And while we''re on Nurgle, I''ll note that plaguebearers and plague marines are tougher, scoring, and available as allies. Especially since plaguebearers can easily get FNP and are basically always going to ground and can glance any vehicle. Oh and plaguebearers are dirt cheap.

Plague marine allies will serve you better.

<_> I don't want to butt into this bitch fight here, but to be honest, I think Flayed Ones, while resilient, are bullet magnets and one or two of my Leman Russ Executioners could probably end them in a single turn of shooting.. Also, maybe massed lasgun fire or a nice big squad of Assault Marines, but I gotta admit, they are pretty good for their points :3 I'm surprised people don't use them more often, especially considering how cool (I think) they are ^_^

Oh and plague zombie allies are cheaper and just as good at soaking up wounds point to point.

 Kain wrote:
Given that space wolves are everywhere, whether or not you can beat GH in assault or on a point basis is a very valid comparison. GHs, Plague Marines, Boys and Tervis are a golden standard for a reason. If you can't force these from an objective with what you''re using you should reconsider.

Also the Ailaros blog is legit, his DS ing stormies stomped face until people adjusted to them, at which point they usually just died without doing anything of note.

And while we''re on Nurgle, I''ll note that plaguebearers and plague marines are tougher, scoring, and available as allies. Especially since plaguebearers can easily get FNP and are basically always going to ground and can glance any vehicle. Oh and plaguebearers are dirt cheap.

Plague marine allies will serve you better.

And, you keep saying allies are better, maybe I don't want to field a different army? Maybe I don't want to waste 70 fricken points on a Nurgle Lord to get Plague Marines as Troop Choices, when I could just as easily FIELD FLAYED ONES FOR LESS -_-

Chaos lords are nifty, cheap, and get a lot of goodies, they're rarely wasted points. Oh and they can randomly turn into Daemon Princes.

 Kain wrote:
Chaos lords are nifty, cheap, and get a lot of goodies, they're rarely wasted points. Oh and they can randomly turn into Daemon Princes.

-_- Once in a hundred games.. And, why would I want a Chaos Lord when I have a Destroyer Lord who does the same thing but better?

 Kain wrote:
Chaos lords are nifty, cheap, and get a lot of goodies, they're rarely wasted points. Oh and they can randomly turn into Daemon Princes.

Or spawn.

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 Kain wrote:
Chaos lords are nifty, cheap, and get a lot of goodies, they're rarely wasted points. Oh and they can randomly turn into Daemon Princes.

-_- Once in a hundred games.. And, why would I want a Chaos Lord when I have a Destroyer Lord who does the same thing but better?

Because that's one less slot for a royal court. Also Helldrakes, Obliterators, Contemptor dreads, and plague marines.

There are three critical problems that lead to non-use of Flayed ones.

A) It's hard to get them into combat.
Yes, they have Deep Strike and Infiltrate, but fundamentally they're still 6" move infantry. When the only real assault elements that work in this meta are extremely fast moving (assault armies now want, and get, guaranteed turn 2 assault), Flayed ones don't really have any methods to get into CC. No Assault Transports, no assault after Deep Strike, no movement shenanigans, no terrain ignoring. Furthermore, although cheap, they're relatively squishy, and have the possibility to get cut down in overwatch, leading to failed charges, esp. through terrain. Not to mention the firepower that can be unloaded into them the turn they deep strike. The enemy could even use his counterassault elements to charge the flayed ones themselves.

B) When they're in a fight, they're not actually that good.
Three S4 attacks at 13 points isn't that terrible in and of itself. Oh wait, Slugga Boyz get that many attacks at that strength (4S 4A on the charge) and are less than half the cost per model of a Flayed One. Slugga Boyz are also generally not taken either, which is not good news for Flayed Ones. Boyz even get assault transports, and immunity to morale problems when you take a lot of them. Fundamentally, Flayed Ones don't do that well in combat. The I2 really hurts, even if you charge you're getting struck first basically all the time, and S4 AP- attacks at I2 isn't really what wins combats. IA12 seems like a buff that actually works -- giving them shred means they at least wound a lot, making them actually reasonable. Giving them the great equalizer, rending, also would make them functional, as then they'd be always able to threaten some kind of damage. Giving them Shred and Rending would make them actually totally fearsome. Then you'd see them used in large quantities, as distraction elements for an Multiple Threat Overload List. You'd need to address the Deep Striking Flayed Ones before they got to combat, which would take away firepower from the wraiths and nightscythes and annihilation barges. However, as they are right now, they aren't going to make enough of an impact in melee to even warrant threat given to them. They're kind of like Mutilators in that respect. In fact, they're generally like mutilators. Some people have tried to take them in a competitive list. How? By deepstriking just one of them, and then hiding with it, and pestering the backfield. Mutilators even do that better than Flayed Ones, as Nurgle Mutilators are I4 with various power weapons or I1 with Chainfists, and T5 with a 2+/5++.

Furthermore, their I2 means that an enemy with Flayed Ones near them is indeed going to charge with any counterassault element that's handy, and since most assault is faster than I2, he'll probably win combat, and then sweep, totally denying RP.

C) They're not scoring or Troops
If they were, their ability to Deep Strike and Infiltrate would be very helpful. You'd just infiltrate or DS them onto objectives (the Relic anyone, or any of the 6 Scouring Objectives?). You could even use an ADL with Comms to delay their coming in till enemy firepower has been depleted. However, they can't do that. This is another area where IA12 is quite good to them, if they're in fact troops there. Then you can do stuff like DSing them into enemy backfields, actually win some combats with Shred, and then hold objectives. When 5 out of 6 missions require troops to hold objectives, Flayed one's inability to gain points from holding them further reduces their use in a competitive list.

For Flayed Ones to be competitively used requires the solution of at least one of these problems. IA12 seems to be on the right track, solving C and somewhat B. Too bad Forgeworld lists aren't typically allowed at tournaments.


Triarch Praetorians are also generally bad, especially compared to Wraiths. I'm not going to go into the whole argument here, as it's been extensively covered elsewhere, but I'll make one comparison.

Preferred Enemy is better when you roll more dice to hit and to wound. It doesn't matter the quality of those attacks. Wraiths get more attacks at a higher S (and rending, which is lovely with PE) than Triarch Praetorians. A Destroyer Lord makes lots of things better, but he benefits wraiths more than Praetorians. Shame, because praetorians have relatively nice models. Lychguard have better models too, and boy do those suck right now. Actually, that's another example of the problem of Flayed Ones. Lychguard w/ Warscythes do massive damage against most targets when they hit, but they can't get to combat and get punk'd before they strike. Wraiths don't get punked as easily because of the 3++ and 2W.

On a separate note, you can't get Plague Marines as allied Troops. The Nurgle Lord only makes them troops if he's in your primary detachment.


tl;dr Flayed Ones are not considered competitive because they can't get to combat easily, aren't actually good in combat, and can't score.

Oh? Well CSM s with a MoN are still decently tough and extremely annoying to people with S3 guns. A Nurgle contemptor dread is pretty trolltastic with how hard it is to kill, and it gets some sweet guns.

 Kain wrote:
Oh? Well CSM s with a MoN are still decently tough and extremely annoying to people with S3 guns. A Nurgle contemptor dread is pretty trolltastic with how hard it is to kill, and it gets some sweet guns.

But the Contemptors are pretty expensive, and a Devvy squad with lascannons could snipe it across the board before it did anything.. And, MoN doesn't do anything for Toughness any more, it just gives Shrouded..