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 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 Kain wrote:
Oh? Well CSM s with a MoN are still decently tough and extremely annoying to people with S3 guns. A Nurgle contemptor dread is pretty trolltastic with how hard it is to kill, and it gets some sweet guns.

But the Contemptors are pretty expensive, and a Devvy squad with lascannons could snipe it across the board before it did anything.. And, MoN doesn't do anything for Toughness any more, it just gives Shrouded..

4+ save vs glances, 6+ vs pens. Av13, -1 on all damage rolls against it. Loads of hull points. Hope you brought a lot of lascannons.

And the MoN affects toughness like usual, you must be thinking of Plaguebearers.

I really want Flayed Ones to be good, because they'd fit fantastically well with my Imotek/"Kommando Boss" looted 'cron allies.

But really, since assault from deep strike isn't a thing anymore, they just look pretty crap to me.

Oh boy! Another thread about Flayed Ones!
I bet it's going to have extremely lengthy comments that include multiple quoted sections which are actually just used for tit-for-tat "nah-unh" bitch fights.
I wonder if they'll come to a different conclusion this time?
...
(nope)

There are a lot of things against Flayed Ones:

- They share a limited FOC slot with a couple stronger options that you want to take multiples of
- They have no AP in close combat
- They have no ranged combat capability
- They are Initiative 2, so they are easy to lose to Sweeping Advance if you wiff on your Leadership (Reanimation Protocol won't save you from this)
- They are Initiative 2, so they pretty much never get to knock off some of the enemy models before they get to strike
- They can't assault on Turn 1 (Infiltration is not an option in 6E; they can't deploy normally)
- They can't assault when they come in from Outflank or Deep Strike
- They don't have any Dedicated Transport options

Also, ShadarLogoth, Reanimation Protocol is worse than Feel No Pain in most cases. Not all, but in most. This is because that no matter what, your model is a casualty. FNP has a chance to prevent the model becoming a casualty. That means it has a chance to prevent you from losing combat and dealing with a Sweeping Advance, or losing a number of attacks before you can strike, and so on. Provided you don't die to a Sweeping Advance, you'll save as many models as FNP will. But no more than that.

And finally: they suck at their job. They aren't good at combat. Sure, if you managed to get a charge off with a full unit of 20, and managed to not lose any, you might kill 6-7 Space Marines. But that's 260 points to kill 90-105 points and is such an outlier situation in the amount of luck required that its not even really applicable.

For grins I did a mock battle. Feel free to ignore but thought I'd share anyways:

It's hard to get them into combat.

Fundamental misunderstanding of their role. You use their flexible deployment to get them to an enemy objective. If their is a unit there, you assault it, if not, you contest it. GtG if people shoot at you. Eat Bullets.

B) When they're in a fight, they're not actually that good.

They will beat all shooty units, which is what the game is primarily comprised of. They also beat some very good assault units, like TH/SS termies. I understand their numbers better then anyone here. I've played more games with them then this whole board combined.

C) They're not scoring or Troops

Another fundamental misunderstanding of their role. You use them to contest, not to score. And usually, to get linebreaker. That's 4 Victory Points right there. If you don't think that is potentially worth the investment, I don't what else to tell you.

For Flayed Ones to be competitively used requires the solution of at least one of these problems. IA12 seems to be on the right track, solving C and somewhat B. Too bad Forgeworld lists aren't typically allowed at tournaments.

I agree the IA12 buffs are quite nice.

Triarch Praetorians are also generally bad, especially compared to Wraiths. I'm not going to go into the whole argument here, as it's been extensively covered elsewhere, but I'll make one comparison.

No, they really aren't. You can make bigger units with them, meaning you get more mileage out of the DLord's buffs. Triarchs with a res orb also have superior RPP then Wraiths in most cases. Personally, that makes a big difference to me, as Wraiths are notorious for getting shot up before they reach close combat. Another big advantage of Triarch's over Wraiths is the justify the res orb, and having a DLord with a res orb on the field is amazingly good, as you can readily redeploy PE and Res Orb to any unit as needed. Wraiths are good, and when taking the DLord out of the equation I think they are clearly better. However, in terms of DLord escort, I'd take the TPs any day of the week.

Wraiths don't get punked as easily because of the 3++ and 2W.

The Triarch Praetorians are simply more resilient in more cases then the Wraiths. This is even further magnified with Night Fighting, which the TPs benefit from but the Wraiths don't (unless they are >36" away). For an Imotehk list, this makes a big difference.







Automatically Appended Next Post:

Also, ShadarLogoth, Reanimation Protocol is worse than Feel No Pain in most cases. Not all, but in most. This is because that no matter what, your model is a casualty. FNP has a chance to prevent the model becoming a casualty. That means it has a chance to prevent you from losing combat and dealing with a Sweeping Advance, or losing a number of attacks before you can strike, and so on. Provided you don't die to a Sweeping Advance, you'll save as many models as FNP will. But no more than that.

RP doesn't get taken away by instant death and double toughness. FNP has advantages, as you point out, but when you are going to ground on an objective and eating bullets, RP is superior, as long as you don't get wiped. Trust me, it's a lot harder then most people think to clear off 15 to 20 Flayed Ones GtG on an objective.

And finally: they suck at their job. They aren't good at combat. Sure, if you managed to get a charge off with a full unit of 20, and managed to not lose any, you might kill 6-7 Space Marines. But that's 260 points to kill 90-105 points and is such an outlier situation in the amount of luck required that its not even really applicable.

No, they really don't. Any I1 Term (including Oblits), Guard Blobs, any primarily shooting unit. There are many, many more units taken in the actual meta they can do their job against then units that they can't. How do I know this? Because I use them. All the time.

- They share a limited FOC slot with a couple stronger options that you want to take multiples of

There isn't a single competitive Necron list that I am aware of that maxes out the elite slot. Not one.

- They have no AP in close combat
- They have no ranged combat capability

They are a high resiliency horde based CC unit. Neither of those stats are relevant to that role.

- They are Initiative 2, so they are easy to lose to Sweeping Advance if you wiff on your Leadership (Reanimation Protocol won't save you from this)

Yes, but more often then not Ld10 and your boat load of attacks will. This really doesn't happen that often. Its about as likely as the first shot lascannon into the Land Raider.

- They are Initiative 2, so they pretty much never get to knock off some of the enemy models before they get to strike

Yes, and when you are assaulting Tacticals, or Fire Warriors, or Kroot, or Cultists, or anything from the Eldar or Dark Eldar books (just about), or gaunts, or IG....really, most things you send them against, aren't going to hit very hard.

- They can't assault on Turn 1 (Infiltration is not an option in 6E; they can't deploy normally)
- They can't assault when they come in from Outflank or Deep Strike

Neither can 99.99999999% of the units in the game. Not sure why this is relevant to the discussion.

- They don't have any Dedicated Transport options

Yes, but they have dedicated deployment options.


Again, I'll just keep repeating this until people who understand how you win and lose games in this edition get it. You use their flexible deployment options to take a backfield objective, get linebreaker, and then you make them a threat. Once the unit is worth 4 VPs (1 + the 3 you are denying your opponent), they become a priority target. Which is cool, because you then GtG in the area terrain you just took and eat bullets behind a 3++ and RP.

It takes on average 270 Bolter shots to kill 20 Flayed Ones GtG on an objective. 270 Bolter Shots!

How about a Helldrake? If I'm properly spread out, he's hitting maybe 4 models. That works out to 2.22 dead Flayed Ones a turn after RP. That's not going to get it done either.

Tau with ML support? Legit threat, no doubt. Fortunately, the delayed arrival of the Flayed Ones will give you time to knock the MLs out of commission. And, like always, spread out. As much as you can.






Automatically Appended Next Post:

 skoffs wrote:
Oh boy! Another thread about Flayed Ones!
I bet it's going to have extremely lengthy comments that include multiple quoted sections which are actually just used for tit-for-tat "nah-unh" bitch fights.
I wonder if they'll come to a different conclusion this time?
...
(nope)

Skoffs knows me too well.

I think I might agree on them being an ok objective contester. Same price as a Warrior, better in CC which is where you'd want a contestor usually, can deep strike rather than slowly slog up the map... but thats without consideration to the opportunity cost of taking them (other elite choices)

Also I thought linebreaker was scoring units only? How do you make Flayed Ones scoring?

 Dakkamite wrote:
I think I might agree on them being an ok objective contester. Same price as a Warrior, better in CC which is where you'd want a contestor usually, can deep strike rather than slowly slog up the map... but thats without consideration to the opportunity cost of taking them (other elite choices)

Also I thought linebreaker was scoring units only? How do you make Flayed Ones scoring?

Any denial unit can get linebreaker (as well as scoring units of course).

 Kain wrote:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 Kain wrote:
Chaos lords are nifty, cheap, and get a lot of goodies, they're rarely wasted points. Oh and they can randomly turn into Daemon Princes.

-_- Once in a hundred games.. And, why would I want a Chaos Lord when I have a Destroyer Lord who does the same thing but better?

Because that's one less slot for a royal court. Also Helldrakes, Obliterators, Contemptor dreads, and plague marines.

Royal courts are garbage. I speak from experience

Really? Goddamnit, I want to do Necrons on the cheap and an army of 20 models sounds pretty good on my wallet...

 Dakkamite wrote:
Really? Goddamnit, I want to do Necrons on the cheap and an army of 20 models sounds pretty good on my wallet...

Yeah, that really is the biggest knock against them that I can't argue. The current models aren't popular, and aren't cheap. I've had 20 Metals since the first Dex dropped, by I think its criminal how much they charge now.

My suggestion, convert Warriors. Just slap on any CC bits you have lying around, and then throw some green stuff on here and there for the fleshy parts. Much cheaper. Or, by the metals on Ebay if you can find them cheap enough.

Yeah man thats exactly what I have in mind. Well, either that, or giving Nobs some Necron bits to go with the other 'looted crons' I've got in mind

ShadarLogoth wrote:RP doesn't get taken away by instant death and double toughness. FNP has advantages, as you point out, but when you are going to ground on an objective and eating bullets, RP is superior, as long as you don't get wiped. Trust me, it's a lot harder then most people think to clear off 15 to 20 Flayed Ones GtG on an objective.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

And finally: they suck at their job. They aren't good at combat. Sure, if you managed to get a charge off with a full unit of 20, and managed to not lose any, you might kill 6-7 Space Marines. But that's 260 points to kill 90-105 points and is such an outlier situation in the amount of luck required that its not even really applicable.

No, they really don't. Any I1 Term (including Oblits), Guard Blobs, any primarily shooting unit. There are many, many more units taken in the actual meta they can do their job against then units that they can't. How do I know this? Because I use them. All the time.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

- They have no AP in close combat
- They have no ranged combat capability

They are a high resiliency horde based CC unit. Neither of those stats are relevant to that role.

They are no more resilient than Necron Warriors, can't be taken in greater numbers than Necron Warriors, and cost the same as Necron Warriors. I'd say Necron Warriors are potentially more Resilient despite the identical relevant stats/rules simply because they have access to Nightscythes and Ghost Arks. All Flayed Ones do is trade the Gauss for a higher Attack characteristic, and trade the Transport options for Infiltrate and Deep Strike. And they give up the ability to score for this!

- They are Initiative 2, so they pretty much never get to knock off some of the enemy models before they get to strike

ShadarLogoth wrote:Yes, and when you are assaulting Tacticals, or Fire Warriors, or Kroot, or Cultists, or anything from the Eldar or Dark Eldar books (just about), or gaunts, or IG....really, most things you send them against, aren't going to hit very hard.

But they aren't likely to wipe a unit in a turn so they risk a counter-charge unit coming in to wipe them out. The easiest example for me to give is one from my primary Codex: Thunderwolf Cavalry. The way I use 'em is specifically for cases like this. As I had stated in my previous post, Grey Hunters are going to be painful for Flayed Ones to deal with anyways, and the TWC coming to the rescue will end them quick. Honestly, I'd be surprised if they would be able to contest anything at the end of the game. Going to Ground doesn't help against assault, or anything that ignores cover. Sure, Flamers or a Whirlwind might be only AP 5, but its better than you getting a 2+ save from GtG.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

- They can't assault on Turn 1 (Infiltration is not an option in 6E; they can't deploy normally)
- They can't assault when they come in from Outflank or Deep Strike

Neither can 99.99999999% of the units in the game. Not sure why this is relevant to the discussion.

It is relevant. They either are Infiltrating, Outflanking, or Deep Striking. Its their only way to get any forward projection since they lack transportation. It also leaves them vulnerable for a minimum of 1 turn to enemy shooting, which despite what you say and what you say you have experienced is still an important consideration. If Flayed Ones are really a threat, several armies can end them in a single turn of shooting if its a real threat to them winning the game.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

- They don't have any Dedicated Transport options

Yes, but they have dedicated deployment options.


Again, I'll just keep repeating this until people who understand how you win and lose games in this edition get it. You use their flexible deployment options to take a backfield objective, get linebreaker, and then you make them a threat. Once the unit is worth 4 VPs (1 + the 3 you are denying your opponent), they become a priority target. Which is cool, because you then GtG in the area terrain you just took and eat bullets behind a 3++ and RP.

I'm all about flexibility in deployment. It wins you games. I try to work it into every list I build. At the same time though, there are other things in the Necron Codex that can give you things like Linebreaker. There are other things that can deny (or claim) an Objective. Almost all of them can contribute more to the fight as well.

ShadarLogoth wrote:It takes on average 270 Bolter shots to kill 20 Flayed Ones GtG on an objective. 270 Bolter Shots!

Which is meaningless. Things other than Bolters are going to be aimed at them if the objective is going to make a difference in the game. Things that either have Ignores Cover or can put out a lot more wounds (Templates and Blasts).

It also highly depends on what the available cover is. Most cover in this game is a 5+, meaning you have a 4+ save if you Go To Ground. You'd have to be behind an ADL or Fortification in order to get a 2+ Cover Save by Going to Ground, or be Imperial Guard and use the Incoming! Order. Chances are you are only going to be getting a 4+ save, not a 3+ or better. Though all of that depends on the table, where there is no way to predict it unless you know the available terrain ahead of time. There's usually only 1 Ruin on the tables I normally play on.

ShadarLogoth wrote:How about a Helldrake? If I'm properly spread out, he's hitting maybe 4 models. That works out to 2.22 dead Flayed Ones a turn after RP. That's not going to get it done either.

Ask any Ork player how easy it is to spread a large unit out and to keep it spread out. You are basically throwing away your superior cover save you've been going on about as well.


Anyways, I personally have not seen Flayed Ones make a credible threat. They kill a few models and die and never successfully contest an objective long enough to matter. So our anecdotal evidence cancels each other out. That just leaves the rules on the paper, and personally I can't see why you'd want to take 15-20 Flayed Ones instead of more Necron Warriors, let alone pretty much any of the other options available in the Codex.

I'm glad they work for you, but to me that's similar to the people who say Blood Claws are good because they work for them. Not exactly the same mind you, but its how it comes off. If you were in the NW or I was near you I'd say settle it on the table!

They are no more resilient than Necron Warriors, can't be taken in greater numbers than Necron Warriors, and cost the same as Necron Warriors. I'd say Necron Warriors are potentially more Resilient despite the identical relevant stats/rules simply because they have access to Nightscythes and Ghost Arks. All Flayed Ones do is trade the Gauss for a higher Attack characteristic, and trade the Transport options for Infiltrate and Deep Strike. And they give up the ability to score for this!

As I said before though, can you see the advantages of having Flayed Ones contest an enemy DZ objective over Warriors? Sure, there are some things that can take out FOs in CC, but the list of things that can take out FOs in CC is much shorter then the list of things that can take out Warriors in CC. Also, you lose nothing when GtG.

But they aren't likely to wipe a unit in a turn so they risk a counter-charge unit coming in to wipe them out. The easiest example for me to give is one from my primary Codex: Thunderwolf Cavalry. The way I use 'em is specifically for cases like this. As I had stated in my previous post, Grey Hunters are going to be painful for Flayed Ones to deal with anyways, and the TWC coming to the rescue will end them quick. Honestly, I'd be surprised if they would be able to contest anything at the end of the game. Going to Ground doesn't help against assault, or anything that ignores cover. Sure, Flamers or a Whirlwind might be only AP 5, but its better than you getting a 2+ save from GtG.

Most weapons that ignore cover still have to contend with the 4+, and even weapons that ignore both have to contend with RP. It's a big difference.

Space Wolves don't have a lot of prime contenders for things I would assault with FOs, I'll give you that. Grey Hunters are certainly doable if CA fails to go off, or they have bit whittled down a bit. TWC are straight tough. But I also have a DLord, Triarch Praetorians, and Wraiths in my list. So I've got other things for your TWC to deal with. I doubt if facing me you would send them at the FOs.

It is relevant. They either are Infiltrating, Outflanking, or Deep Striking. Its their only way to get any forward projection since they lack transportation. It also leaves them vulnerable for a minimum of 1 turn to enemy shooting, which despite what you say and what you say you have experienced is still an important consideration. If Flayed Ones are really a threat, several armies can end them in a single turn of shooting if its a real threat to them winning the game.

My point is, that is a restriction almost all CC units have. The second point just isn't as likely as you think, and to pull it off, they are dedicating tons of firepower to the task. At the end of the day, I would rather them shoot my 13 point flayed ones then my 40 point Wraiths or TPs, merely because Flayed Ones eat the bullets more efficiently.

I'm all about flexibility in deployment. It wins you games. I try to work it into every list I build. At the same time though, there are other things in the Necron Codex that can give you things like Linebreaker. There are other things that can deny (or claim) an Objective. Almost all of them can contribute more to the fight as well.

Sure, there are other options, but they have short comings that make them less desirable for my purposes. Namely, the only other unit that compares in RPP are Warriors, who don't stand a chance in most cases in CC. This makes a big difference for me.

Which is meaningless. Things other than Bolters are going to be aimed at them if the objective is going to make a difference in the game. Things that either have Ignores Cover or can put out a lot more wounds (Templates and Blasts).

How often do those templates come on units that don't have other small arms? How often do blasts ignore cover? Heavy flamers are a concern, and they are also one of the least taken weapons in the game. Even a Helldrake isn't great against them, as I mentioned above.

It also highly depends on what the available cover is. Most cover in this game is a 5+, meaning you have a 4+ save if you Go To Ground.

3+ cover save in area terrain (when GtG), always (GtG gives you +2 to cover in area terrain). 2+ if its ruins. I don't play on planet bowling ball boards, but every major tournament has area terrain.

Ask any Ork player how easy it is to spread a large unit out and to keep it spread out. You are basically throwing away your superior cover save you've been going on about as well.

Most basic pieces of area terrain are plenty big enough for my purposes.

Anyways, I personally have not seen Flayed Ones make a credible threat. They kill a few models and die and never successfully contest an objective long enough to matter. So our anecdotal evidence cancels each other out.

Cancels each other out? I have some hundred games with Flayed Ones under my belt. Honestly, how many times have you seen them in play? I seriously doubt your anecdotal evidence pool is large. My is enough to make definitive statements with. The thing is, there isn't much to the tactic. You deploy, you get into area terrain threatening or contesting an objective. If they shoot at you. you GtG. Either they successfully take the objective or they eat bullets that could be going into less resilient units. Its basically a win-win.

I'm glad they work for you, but to me that's similar to the people who say Blood Claws are good because they work for them. Not exactly the same mind you, but its how it comes off. If you were in the NW or I was near you I'd say settle it on the table!

No doubt.

Flayed Ones make for a decent denial/bullet magnet unit, but seen as most MEQ armies now run flamers for free the area terrain save goes and it's back to the problem that they likely will be downed by a squad with a flamer in range. Plus the I2 thing really does hurt when you try and bog the obj. holders down. If people want to run them that's fair enough, but imho I'd rather have another warrior unit for the same price.

 Mitranekh the Omniscient wrote:
Flayed Ones make for a decent denial/bullet magnet unit, but seen as most MEQ armies now run flamers for free the area terrain save goes and it's back to the problem that they likely will be downed by a squad with a flamer in range. Plus the I2 thing really does hurt when you try and bog the obj. holders down. If people want to run them that's fair enough, but imho I'd rather have another warrior unit for the same price.

A normal Flamer doesn't take away their save or their RP. Hitting Flayed Ones with a normal flamer is not more damaging then hitting MEq with a normal flamer (ie, it doesn't kill much of anything).

Fair enough my mistake. I mean I've run flayed ones once, ended up with a grey hunters squad charging me down before they could do anything. But I just don't think they're in the right section, GW should have made them troops (but thats a different debate entirely). If they were I'd run them for objective grabs, but I'm digressing. They can work, but you need terrain and/or some good fortune for them to hit combat with enough 'oomph'

Royal Court armies aren't the most competitive Dakkamite, but they are hilarious! I've run a Royal Court Disco Inferno several times, and every game was hysterically fun, even the ones I lost.

To build them, there's a couple ways you could do it. I didn't want to get Finecast/Finec$ast/whatever single models at high prices, so I just bought a Lychguard Box, a Deathmark Box, and a Warrior Box. In between making warriors, you just stick Deathmark Heads and Praetorian Staff thingies on Warrior bodies, and you have good Crypteks. Mix and Match Lychguard Warscythes and Praetorian stuff, and you have perfect Lords. There, you have a converted Royal Court. Also, using Trazyn as your Warlord makes things so much more trolly too. Then the RCDI is scoring and has anti-horde stuff too.


Back to Flayed Ones. I'll just address a single point about their use as Objective Deniers. They do that job that not terribly, considering they have DS. However, there's something that does their job so much better, and also gives you seven points instead of four. That is Warriors in Nightscythes. You drop them off late game (with no real scatter!), and they hold objectives, instead of contesting them. They don't get shot at because you've killed a lot of other stuff with the Nightscythes. You even have 'flexible deployment,' as if the Nightscythes are destroyed, you can just walk them onto your backfield and hold your own backfield objectives.

The tactic you've described isn't a bad tactic in and of itself. Contesting (or holding) enemy objectives with guys coming in from unexpected angles is a fundamentally good strategy. I'm not disputing that at all, I just played a GK list with Mordrak and Outflanking/Deep-Striking Strike Squads. Deployment options are really powerful this edition. It's just that I don't see Flayed Ones as optimal for that purpose. Other armies can do it better than Flayed Ones can. The Necron Codex can do it better than Flayed Ones can, with Warriors in Nightscythes, or Crypteks with Veil of Darkness/Obyron.


Your comments on the survivability of Triarch Praetorians has got me thinking a bit. They are almost certainly tougher against regular old small arms fire than Wraiths are. There is a case to be made that, in a meta with a lot of troops, small arms survivability is better than heavy firepower survivability. However, there's so much synergy that they DLord has with Wraiths even in terms of survivability. The DLord has the 2+ save, and stands in front of the wraiths, tanking small arms fire. When the enemy fires plasma/melta/whatever, then you LoS to a 3++ save. Praetorians don't have that. They're survivable in the same way the Lord is, which makes them better against small arms fire (More durable than Plague Marines!), but critically weak against things like Demolisher Cannons, Ion Accelerators, Plasma Cannons, etc. When these things are present, in addition to lots of small arms fire, Wraiths + DLord are better. I'd love to see someone take Triarch Praetorians instead of Wraiths to a Nova Open or something and make it work, but with the kinds of firepower available in this meta, I don't see it working very well.

Pretorians don't work because you can get two squads of wraiths for the cost of 1 squad of Pretorians.

 Mitranekh the Omniscient wrote:
Fair enough my mistake. I mean I've run flayed ones once, ended up with a grey hunters squad charging me down before they could do anything. But I just don't think they're in the right section, GW should have made them troops (but thats a different debate entirely). If they were I'd run them for objective grabs, but I'm digressing. They can work, but you need terrain and/or some good fortune for them to hit combat with enough 'oomph'

Well they're troops in IA12! And they also get shred, so they're just heads and shoulders better than their codex counterparts. And unlike GW Flayed Ones, FW Flayed ones aren't butt ugly modelwise.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dakkamite wrote:
Really? Goddamnit, I want to do Necrons on the cheap and an army of 20 models sounds pretty good on my wallet...

Flayed One Models and Cheap in the same sentence?

Oh boy are you in for a surprise.

If only my group ran IA rules.... But at least they have 1 use somewhere, now all GW has to do is FAQ or edit the Codex ones for a small points increase and we're laughing!

IA flayed ones make monstrous creatures cry with the number of rerolling wounds they can put out. Now if only furious charge were easier to get in a necron army.

 Kain wrote:
IA flayed ones make monstrous creatures cry with the number of rerolling wounds they can put out. Now if only furious charge were easier to get in a necron army.

Nemesor Zandrekh anyone? Bit pricey but itc he'd be the best thing to happen to flayed ones since.... Well since IA12 tbh but I'll gloss over that. He'd be ideal to make them the near-best monster hunters crons have

 Mitranekh the Omniscient wrote:

 Kain wrote:
IA flayed ones make monstrous creatures cry with the number of rerolling wounds they can put out. Now if only furious charge were easier to get in a necron army.

Nemesor Zandrekh anyone? Bit pricey but itc he'd be the best thing to happen to flayed ones since.... Well since IA12 tbh but I'll gloss over that. He'd be ideal to make them the near-best monster hunters crons have

There are people who don't take Nemesor?

Just kidding, but the guy is supremely nifty.

To loosely quote skoffs, Nemesor is a title not a first name, just so you know (sorry I know that's picky but it was bugging me). But yes, he is nasty particularly at the helm of an RCDI with Obyron (and maybe Trazyn, who knows). And his perks for flayed ones, especially the IA ones.... Ow. Just, ow.

 Kain wrote:

There are people who don't take Nemesor?

Just kidding, but the guy is supremely nifty.

Only those who run the quality HQs and by that I mean 2 D. Lords.

 NecronLord3 wrote:

 Kain wrote:

There are people who don't take Nemesor?

Just kidding, but the guy is supremely nifty.

Only those who run the quality HQs and by that I mean 2 D. Lords.

You mean the WAAC spammers who don't really care if their opponent hates the game. D. Lords are great yes, but 1 is enough imho. Fluff-wise it makes less sense than an overlord, plus you lose tactical flexibility and no RCDI anyway, Zandrekh would be great alongside a D. Lord, Furious Charge would make him Str8 and able to ID any MEQ HQ in a challenge instead of whittling down past inv. saves, Hit and Run for getting out of Tarpit combats, or take Night Vision away from the DE triple dark lance/triple disintegrator ravager all set to snipe him.

Does that IA12 HQ grant fearless to units he joins?
If so...

 skoffs wrote:
Does that IA12 HQ grant fearless to units he joins?
If so...

Fearless automatcaly confers to a unit, as long as one model in the unit has it.

So, yes, Kutlakh does confer fearless to any unit he joins.

Only those who run the quality HQs and by that I mean 2 D. Lords.

Zahndrekh is a very tactically flexible HQ. Being able to remove things like Stealth, or grant them to one of your own units is a great benefit, and can be pivotal. Dlords are great, but they are not the only great choice.

The tactic you've described isn't a bad tactic in and of itself. Contesting (or holding) enemy objectives with guys coming in from unexpected angles is a fundamentally good strategy. I'm not disputing that at all, I just played a GK list with Mordrak and Outflanking/Deep-Striking Strike Squads. Deployment options are really powerful this edition. It's just that I don't see Flayed Ones as optimal for that purpose. Other armies can do it better than Flayed Ones can. The Necron Codex can do it better than Flayed Ones can, with Warriors in Nightscythes, or Crypteks with Veil of Darkness/Obyron.

Very legitimate point, Thariinye. Dropping Warriors off with a Nightscythe is another way to accomplish this.

The reason I use Flayed Ones instead are A.) I run a null vehicle, null flyer army. Vehicles and Flyers mean less boots on the ground, which ultimately would work against the overall scope of the army. B.) The Warrior tactic relies on 1.) having the NightScythes not die, which against some more 6th edition focuses armies is no guaruntee, 2.) going last, and the game being over the turn you drop them, because 5 Warriors aren't going to hold gak if anything shoots or assaults them, particularly when they are standing in the opponents DZ, and 3.) a hefty investment in Nightscythes (at least 4), because one will never accomplish its goal.

Crytpek with Veil and Obyron both end up being more expensive options for less a less resilient overall unit, regardless of who you are attaching it to.



Also, fair points on the heavy weapons versus TPs/Wraiths. Keep in mind, many of the heavy weapons double T the Wraiths, which is what makes the relative RPP of the two units so close. Plasma and Helldrakes are really the only twoweapon profile the Wraiths have a clear advantage against. Virtually every other weapon profile is either a tie or favors the TPs (Missles, for instance, are dead even if the TPs have a 5+ cover, but favor the TPs if they have Stealth or Shrouded, which, considering they both are in an army that can force NF, is pretty relevant) .

But again, fair point. I can respect you at least understand what the goal of the unit it is before attempting to tear it down with irrelevant preconcieved notions, which is all to common in these discussions, like this gem below:

Pretorians don't work because you can get two squads of wraiths for the cost of 1 squad of Pretorians.

Which, not only is it not true, it's so damn irrelevant to either units purpose on the field it makes my brain hurt that someone actually wasted vital space on Al Gores sacred intertron to post it.

And your tactical advice still reads like a hand book of what not to do in 40k. 420 pts of Wraiths in two six man squads are far superior in EVERY way to a 400pt 10 man squad of Praetorians. This is fact.