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 NecronLord3 wrote:
And your tactical advice still reads like a hand book of what not to do in 40k. 420 pts of Wraiths in two six man squads are far superior in EVERY way to a 400pt 10 man squad of Praetorians. This is fact.

Cute.

A.) No one only spends 420 points on 12 Wraiths. Most configurations would have at least 60 points in Whipcoils.
B.) The TPs are more resilient to a wider array of bullets. VB/PC are superior to Wraiths when assaulting vehicles, while Rod TPs are superior to Wraiths when assaulting elite infantry. So your "fact" happens to be completely false.

Thanks for the ad hominem though. It really adds to your completely inaccurate "facts" and makes your argument all the more persuasive.

I don't need to persuade anyone. I'm amused at your tactical inaccuracies. They are the worst advice I have ever seen anyone give in the history of 40k. You should start a podcast!

 NecronLord3 wrote:
I don't need to persuade anyone. I'm amused at your tactical inaccuracies. They are the worst advice I have ever seen anyone give in the history of 40k. You should start a podcast!

Inaccuracies?

If I said something inaccurate, please point it out, with facts and evidence to support it.

Otherwise, you are just trolling. Which, have fun with that, I guess.

More drivel from Necronlord3. It's really no surprise.

Please, Necronlord3 how about you actually back up your position with some simple math?

ShadarLogoth has at the very least, done the math and shown the accuracy behind his statements. Necronlord3, all you do is makeup outlandish scenarios and attack people.

I don't need to counter all of shadarlogoths bad advice. I've done it to death already. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/600/480149.page#5177314

 NecronLord3 wrote:
I don't need to counter all of shadarlogoths bad advice. I've done it to death already. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/600/480149.page#5177314

I just filtered through all your posts, and most of it is the same thing. ShadarLogoth, has actually math, and analysis in there, to support his position. You do not.

LOL, yeah I remember that post. I think it's awesome that you are so proud of it when anyone who plays Necrons can easily point out how inaccurate it is.


You seem to be fuzzy on the whole facts and evidence thing. I'll help you a bit, it's not quite the same as wild ass inaccurate speculation.

They just needed to be Troops and they'd be fine. For now, they arebottom tier. Reference the old FO thread, no desire to dig this up again.

 Sigvatr wrote:
They just needed to be Troops and they'd be fine. For now, they arebottom tier. Reference the old FO thread, no desire to dig this up again.

Hence why most people who do use flayed ones tend to run them in the IA list where they're not only in the troops slot, but get a much needed buff that also makes them quite scary to MCs they can catch via swamping them in rerollable (and thus vastly more) wounds.

ShadarLogoth wrote:
LOL, yeah I remember that post. I think it's awesome that you are so proud of it when anyone who plays Necrons can easily point out how inaccurate it is.


You seem to be fuzzy on the whole facts and evidence thing. I'll help you a bit, it's not quite the same as wild ass inaccurate speculation.

Nothing I've said is inaccurate. I don't need to use math to prove to you an apple is red when you say it's blue. This is warhammer not math hammer and the bs statistics you may cling to mean nothing to actual game play. Wraiths are leaps and bounds far superior to Praetorians in everyway, except for ressurection protocols which is no saving grace with the amount of AP 2 and 3 weapons in the game, not to mention covers save ignoring equipment. FOs also blow for all the reasons listed in this thread and more. Trying to convince people otherwise is wishful thinking at best. Please show me the wining lot for any major tournament that included either of these choices, let alone both. It doesn't exist.

If I may interject into this "debate"...
I don't know what's been said outside of this between you two, tbh I don't care. But you both have a point. Yes, NecronLord3 wraiths are really nasty, no-one disagrees. Just not everyone swears by the same tactics otherwise it would be boring. As for the mathhammer thing, you're right it isn'tall about the numbers. If it was 40k would have died most likely as only maths nerds would play it. But it isn't about what's kick-ass in tournaments alone, some make a list based on fluff and things they like, I know I do and it works for me. There's no definitive fact, no right or wrong, just what people think. So can we please discontinue this bickering because it gets no-one anywhere and spoils a perfectly good thread. Rant over.

 Mitranekh the Omniscient wrote:
If I may interject into this "debate"...
I don't know what's been said outside of this between you two, tbh I don't care. But you both have a point. Yes, NecronLord3 wraiths are really nasty, no-one disagrees. Just not everyone swears by the same tactics otherwise it would be boring. As for the mathhammer thing, you're right it isn'tall about the numbers. If it was 40k would have died most likely as only maths nerds would play it. But it isn't about what's kick-ass in tournaments alone, some make a list based on fluff and things they like, I know I do and it works for me. There's no definitive fact, no right or wrong, just what people think. So can we please discontinue this bickering because it gets no-one anywhere and spoils a perfectly good thread. Rant over.

I totally agree with you but I am being attacked and told I am wrong when I point out that the main reason Triarch Praetorians are not as good as Wraiths is due to their cost vs their effectiveness.

You can play what ever you want and ShadarLorgoth can run all the Failed Ones and TPs he wants. But I will not stand for him telling me I am wrong when I am giving my opinion or when I am absolutely right in what I am saying. Just so he can interject his very one sided opinion in every thread relating to FOs.

I RECOMMENDED flayed ones to someone who was puzzling over how to kill off Tau. Do not forget that if you go second, infiltrators can charge round 1. So if the enemy has moved at all towards you (and even Tau havce lements that will do this) you can be on them. Infiltrating is done LAST, so you will know where to go to cut the enemy off.

Flayed ones have a lot of attacks on the charge. They are capable combatants and as was said, Zhandrek in particulr (the best character in the codex) is a huge asset to them.

I like Flayed ones. They give the army a dimension that Necron players have not really explored much in my area. Croissants and command Barges soak up a lot of points that might otherwise go to a more "bodies on the field" approach, but now that anti-air is not so rare nor easy to kill Before it comes in (The new Eldar Crimson Hunter is a terror to other flyers for example), more and more the Necrons are going to have to adjust a LITTLE and give themselves a chance. Can you imagine how sad a Croissants of doom list might be against three Crimson Hunters and an Autarch that goes second? Lol. That would be a bad day for sure.

In any event, I say use 'em. They make for an interesting approach and takes away options forthe enemy which is cool.

Nothing I've said is inaccurate

In the thread you linked you said Flayed Ones have 2 attacks. You also keep saying Wraiths are superior to TPs in everyway, but the fact is they are not. I've already said this once, but I'll say it again. VB/PC TPs are superior against vehicles, Rod TPs are superior against elite infantry, and all TPs are superior in resilience per point. If anything I just said is inaccurate, please prove it. If not, please conceded to point that Wraiths being superior in everyway is simply false.

I don't need to use math to prove to you an apple is red when you say it's blue. This is warhammer not math hammer and the bs statistics you may cling to mean nothing to actual game play.

But when TPs are more resilient, and the math proves that...which of us is calling the apple blue?

Wraiths are leaps and bounds far superior to Praetorians in everyway, except for ressurection protocols which is no saving grace with the amount of AP 2 and 3 weapons in the game, not to mention covers save ignoring equipment.

What do AP 2 and 3 have to do with Reanimation Protocols? Yes, low AP cover save ignoring equipment generally favors the Wraiths. The simple fact is there are a lot more S 3-6 and 8+ weapons in the game then low AP cover save ignoring equipment.

FOs also blow for all the reasons listed in this thread and more. Trying to convince people otherwise is wishful thinking at best.

Every point has been rebutted. As it stands, I have yet to see a convincing argument against them. People are welcome to come away with any conclusions they wish. A wise person would understand good advice and leave their preconceived notions at the door.

Please show me the wining lot for any major tournament that included either of these choices, let alone both. It doesn't exist

You could easily replace one of the units of Wraiths in the current cookie cutter list with Triarch Praetorians and win. The two units simply are not divergent enough for one to be clearly superior. I feel Wraiths are better with no DLord escort, TPs are better with. I feel the math and experience both easily support this position.

Flayed Ones are unpopular, because no one even bothers to try them. Its a circular event fed by the internet echo chambers. Everyone that has ever posted on one of these threads and gotten a few games out of them has come away with a much more positive opinion then the people who never use them, or fight against them. Weird how that is.

You can play what ever you want and ShadarLorgoth can run all the Failed Ones and TPs he wants. But I will not stand for him telling me I am wrong when I am giving my opinion or when I am absolutely right in what I am saying. Just so he can interject his very one sided opinion in every thread relating to FOs.

Ah, yes, your opinion is right because, well, because you say its right. My position, which I back up with facts and evidence, is one sided and flawed. I keep inviting you to prove me wrong. You keep abstaining from that act. We're not dealing with opinions here. We are dealing with facts.

VB/PCs are superior to anti-tank role then Wraiths. Fact.

TPs are more resilient to a wider array of weapons, particularly if you bring along Night Fighting mechanics. Fact.

Flayed One are tied with Warriors as the most resilient units in the entire codex, and combined with CC ability and flexible deployment, make them very good at the task of contesting opponent deployment zone objectives. Fact.

Please pick one of these facts and refute it. Please.

I already have refuted all your points in the linked thread you are a waste of everyone's time, and I am not doing it again.

 NecronLord3 wrote:
I already have refuted all your points in the linked thread you are a waste of everyone's time, and I am not doing it again.

I just read the linked thread again, and sadly, you still haven't refuted a single point with actual facts. I'll take your continued refusal to do so as admittance that you have no true facts to back up your position.

Unfortunate.

I'll just wait for one person to come on here and agree with you as to Flayed Ones and TPs being so much better than Warriors and Wraiths.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jancoran wrote:
I RECOMMENDED flayed ones to someone who was puzzling over how to kill off Tau. Do not forget that if you go second, infiltrators can charge round 1. So if the enemy has moved at all towards you (and even Tau havce lements that will do this) you can be on them. Infiltrating is done LAST, so you will know where to go to cut the enemy off.

Flayed ones have a lot of attacks on the charge. They are capable combatants and as was said, Zhandrek in particulr (the best character in the codex) is a huge asset to them.

I like Flayed ones. They give the army a dimension that Necron players have not really explored much in my area. Croissants and command Barges soak up a lot of points that might otherwise go to a more "bodies on the field" approach, but now that anti-air is not so rare nor easy to kill Before it comes in (The new Eldar Crimson Hunter is a terror to other flyers for example), more and more the Necrons are going to have to adjust a LITTLE and give themselves a chance. Can you imagine how sad a Croissants of doom list might be against three Crimson Hunters and an Autarch that goes second? Lol. That would be a bad day for sure.

In any event, I say use 'em. They make for an interesting approach and takes away options forthe enemy which is cool.

with the Tau you are going to have to be setup within 18" to pull of a long shot charge and satisfy the rules for infiltrate. You are going to at least be receiving 1 round of shooting and then if you survive and do not break and run, you will receive another round of overwatch which any decent Tau player can be using reasonable BS with. Not to mention most other Tau weapons can easily have range on that FO squad. It doesn't even require the Tau to focus the majority of their army on the squad.

You cannot assault from an outflank, you'll be destroyed if you have to walk to the enemy, you'll have the entire weight of an opposing army's undamaged points cost on you if you infiltrate. You can't assault from any vehicle or Obyrons Deepstrike. No RC members can be attached, they can't hurt anything but AR10 vehicles. They cannot score.

1560 pts gives you 120 warriors if you want a more boots on the ground approach and that gives you far more combat effectiveness than FOs are capable of achieving.

I think everyone can agree that FO's are not the best unit in the book. But they have their uses and if people wanna run them who are we to stop them? 10 FO's vs 10 Warriors starting 12" apart don't be too surprised to see the FO's win, 3 attacks is nasty 4 on charge.

To the OP if they are still keeping up with this thread. If you wanna use FO outflanking or DS then absolutely go for it, they can be a good distraction and may just be useful sometimes. And it fits the fluff. Go for it

 Mitranekh the Omniscient wrote:
I think everyone can agree that FO's are not the best unit in the book. But they have their uses and if people wanna run them who are we to stop them? 10 FO's vs 10 Warriors starting 12" apart don't be too surprised to see the FO's win, 3 attacks is nasty 4 on charge.

To the OP if they are still keeping up with this thread. If you wanna use FO outflanking or DS then absolutely go for it, they can be a good distraction and may just be useful sometimes. And it fits the fluff. Go for it

Yea I'm still following though more with popcorn than a notebook at this point. Glad to see people are passionate about Flayed Ones but at some point it turns into beating a dead horse on the internet. Much better to do and discuss over a pint.

That said I definitely appreciate the insights and testimonies people have provided with their experiences with Flayed Ones. Outside of the back and forth, it's been decent in terms of strategy so thanks!

ShadarLogoth wrote:

 NecronLord3 wrote:
And your tactical advice still reads like a hand book of what not to do in 40k. 420 pts of Wraiths in two six man squads are far superior in EVERY way to a 400pt 10 man squad of Praetorians. This is fact.

Cute.

A.) No one only spends 420 points on 12 Wraiths. Most configurations would have at least 60 points in Whipcoils.
B.) The TPs are more resilient to a wider array of bullets. VB/PC are superior to Wraiths when assaulting vehicles, while Rod TPs are superior to Wraiths when assaulting elite infantry. So your "fact" happens to be completely false.

Thanks for the ad hominem though. It really adds to your completely inaccurate "facts" and makes your argument all the more persuasive.

I play 15 wraiths in 3 units and only 1 coil in the unit with the destro lord, that is 50 points not down the drain, i really dont care if my wraiths die or not. The tendency is that more people drop the coils.

TP are utter crap tbh, while they do have great rules the price tag and poor survivabilty in small units is way to steep to justify them.

ShadarLogoth wrote:
As I said before though, can you see the advantages of having Flayed Ones contest an enemy DZ objective over Warriors? Sure, there are some things that can take out FOs in CC, but the list of things that can take out FOs in CC is much shorter then the list of things that can take out Warriors in CC. Also, you lose nothing when GtG.

That's not really true, on both counts.

First, since Flayed Ones aren't any more durable than Warriors anything that can kill Warriors can kill Flayed Ones. The list may be a little shorter, but not by much like you seem to think. Flayed Ones have triple the close combat attacks, but nothing special about them. No Rending, no AP, nothing. There are a lot of units that can handle Flayed Ones in close combat, even a large group of them, and several of those are scoring! Specific examples you'll see often include Chaos Space Marines and Grey Hunters.

Second, you do lose something when you Go To Ground: The ability to act. You are now automatically giving up a turn of action. Awesome, you are maybe contesting an Objective that turn. But you won't be threatening anything else and you won't be getting any charges off, and the next enemy shooting phase you have to decide if you are sacrificing yet another turn of action.

ShadarLogoth wrote:
Most weapons that ignore cover still have to contend with the 4+, and even weapons that ignore both have to contend with RP. It's a big difference.

The difference between a 2+ Save and RPP and a 4+ Save and RPP is a big difference. Losing your cover safe bonus for Going To Ground means you just gave up a turn with that unit for nothing. That hurts.

ShadarLogoth wrote:
Space Wolves don't have a lot of prime contenders for things I would assault with FOs, I'll give you that. Grey Hunters are certainly doable if CA fails to go off, or they have bit whittled down a bit. TWC are straight tough. But I also have a DLord, Triarch Praetorians, and Wraiths in my list. So I've got other things for your TWC to deal with. I doubt if facing me you would send them at the FOs.

That depends entirely what's going on in the game for the most part, but no. I'm not throwing TWC into a DLord or Wraiths if I can help it (and being Cavalry...). My Wolf Guard Terminators (3) and HQ however have tied up such units for 3-5 turns before, usually 4 or 5. Flayed Ones are exactly the type of unit you'd want to hit with TWC so why would I throw TWC at a target that can chew them up, even decked out with Storm Shields?

ShadarLogoth wrote:
My point is, that is a restriction almost all CC units have. The second point just isn't as likely as you think, and to pull it off, they are dedicating tons of firepower to the task. At the end of the day, I would rather them shoot my 13 point flayed ones then my 40 point Wraiths or TPs, merely because Flayed Ones eat the bullets more efficiently.

That seems to be all they can do and, again, Warriors seem to be able to do it just as well.

ShadarLogoth wrote:
Sure, there are other options, but they have short comings that make them less desirable for my purposes. Namely, the only other unit that compares in RPP are Warriors, who don't stand a chance in most cases in CC. This makes a big difference for me.

But you aren't getting into CC with your Flayed Ones. You keep saying how you just Go To Ground when you get shot at. Plus, you can't charge on Turn 1 due to Infiltrate, can't charge out of Deep Strike, and can't charge out of Outflank. So you almost never get to charge the enemy it sounds like to me.

ShadarLogoth wrote:
How often do those templates come on units that don't have other small arms? How often do blasts ignore cover? Heavy flamers are a concern, and they are also one of the least taken weapons in the game. Even a Helldrake isn't great against them, as I mentioned above.

You have a 5+ save against a Heldrake. No, its not as painful as it is for Space Marines, but it still hurts. You'll take more wounds than if it were a Flamer, and have a worse save. You will be losing more models still. Plus Vector Strike. With regards to the rest:

- Whirlwinds are cheap and cheerful and available to every Space Marine army out there.
- Imperial Guard have Eradicators, Hellhounds, Bane Wolfs, Colossus, and Deathstrikes.
- Tau have Markerlights, Multi-spectrum Sensor Suites, and Smart Missile Systems
- CSM have Baleflamers, Blastmasters and Sonic Blasters on top of normal Flamers

All of the above either just make you straight up dead or take away your 2+ Cover Save and make you use your 4+. And that says nothing of the fact that every piece of terrain granting you cover is not going to be Area Terrain, except maybe at your home. At a tournament it definitely won't be the case. And if its not Area Terrain, then all Small/Large Blast weapons hurt you terribly, since you treat the center of the blast as the direction the shot came from.

ShadarLogoth wrote:
3+ cover save in area terrain (when GtG), always (GtG gives you +2 to cover in area terrain). 2+ if its ruins. I don't play on planet bowling ball boards, but every major tournament has area terrain.

Correct about Area Terrain and Going To Ground, but you seem to be forgetting that not all terrain is going to actually be Area Terrain, especially at a tournament. So yes its something to consider but not something that be counted on.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

Anyways, I personally have not seen Flayed Ones make a credible threat. They kill a few models and die and never successfully contest an objective long enough to matter. So our anecdotal evidence cancels each other out.

Cancels each other out? I have some hundred games with Flayed Ones under my belt. Honestly, how many times have you seen them in play? I seriously doubt your anecdotal evidence pool is large. My is enough to make definitive statements with. The thing is, there isn't much to the tactic. You deploy, you get into area terrain threatening or contesting an objective. If they shoot at you. you GtG. Either they successfully take the objective or they eat bullets that could be going into less resilient units. Its basically a win-win.

Congratulations. I have nearly that many with Blood Claws under my belt, and even with more wins than losses. That doesn't make it a good choice or something I'd want to bring to a tournament or highly competitive game. I've seen Flayed Ones maybe two dozen times in 6E, if that, so you got me there.

The thing is, your tactic doesn't depend on Flayed Ones. You just seem to have an arbitrary attachment to them IMO. You have a ton of maybes going on here:

- There is an objective near terrain
- The terrain is area terrain
- The enemy's deployment allows me to start in the area terrain
- The enemy's deployment allows me to credibly threaten the objective
- I can get close enough to the objective in a single turn, even ignoring I'm moving through cover, to credibly threaten the objective

I shoot at your Flayed Ones, you Go To Ground. You now aren't charging or moving, you are pinned down. So I can shoot at you again, and again, and you are going to keep Going To Ground and just taking the hits?

I'm still trying to figure out why you'd take Flayed Ones over more Warriors. Nothing about your tactic seems to really need Flayed Ones. Again, they are equal in point cost and in resiliency to enemy shooting but Warriors can claim that objective instead of just contesting it. They both are likely to get to the objective around the same time, unless your enemy deploys foolishly. If you are just Going To Ground all the time, you obviously don't need their close combat capabilities (which are slightly worse than CSM/Grey Hunters since they are all normal attacks).

So please, convince me! Why are Flayed Ones superior to Warriors?

First, since Flayed Ones aren't any more durable than Warriors anything that can kill Warriors can kill Flayed Ones. The list may be a little shorter, but not by much like you seem to think. Flayed Ones have triple the close combat attacks, but nothing special about them. No Rending, no AP, nothing. There are a lot of units that can handle Flayed Ones in close combat, even a large group of them, and several of those are scoring! Specific examples you'll see often include Chaos Space Marines and Grey Hunters.

I've taken out both CSM and GH with Flayed Ones in CC. With superior numbers, sure, but that's not something Warriors will ever do unless they are being lead by a Phaeron and some other WS Lords, dramatically increasing the price of the unit. The point it, even basic Tacticals scare Warriors in CC. And, if you are in Terrain, any CC unit without Nades is striking last, dramatically increasing the amount of units you can take. Boys, for instance, are no threat to me when I'm in area terrain.

Second, you do lose something when you Go To Ground: The ability to act. You are now automatically giving up a turn of action. Awesome, you are maybe contesting an Objective that turn. But you won't be threatening anything else and you won't be getting any charges off, and the next enemy shooting phase you have to decide if you are sacrificing yet another turn of action.

This is all irrelevant to the mission objective. And as long as they keep shooting at you, you ARE doing something. What would you rather get shot at, 3+/RP Flayed Ones at 13 points/base or 3++ Wraiths at 35 to 45 points per base?

The difference between a 2+ Save and RPP and a 4+ Save and RPP is a big difference. Losing your cover safe bonus for Going To Ground means you just gave up a turn with that unit for nothing. That hurts.

Going to ground is a fantastic mechanic, and every tournament player knows this. I don't think I need to defend that aspect of the strategy.

That depends entirely what's going on in the game for the most part, but no. I'm not throwing TWC into a DLord or Wraiths if I can help it (and being Cavalry...). My Wolf Guard Terminators (3) and HQ however have tied up such units for 3-5 turns before, usually 4 or 5. Flayed Ones are exactly the type of unit you'd want to hit with TWC so why would I throw TWC at a target that can chew them up, even decked out with Storm Shields?

Sure, you have fast units, I have fast units. This tit for tat is rather meaningless. I feel confident I could take your SW list because I've faced its carbon copy before. We simply can't settle this by talking about it.

That seems to be all they can do and, again, Warriors seem to be able to do it just as well.

Yes, but Warriors can't CC. Look, hammer out Warriors and Flayed Ones in CC against a variety of opponents. I really shouldn't have to convince anyone of this point. Its extremely apparent by just looking at their basic profiles. The math and experience just further validates that point.

But you aren't getting into CC with your Flayed Ones. You keep saying how you just Go To Ground when you get shot at. Plus, you can't charge on Turn 1 due to Infiltrate, can't charge out of Deep Strike, and can't charge out of Outflank. So you almost never get to charge the enemy it sounds like to me.

You seem to be interpreting a very binary strategy, and that's probably my fault for how I'm describing it. You threaten with CC. If they put a unit between you and the objective (or on the objective) you kill it, with CC. If they run away and stay out of your assault range, you mosey your way onto the objective. If they position a vast amount of firepower to shoot at you, you go to ground. Action and reaction. The point I was making was, they either make it to the objective or they eat a bunch of firepower that could have gone into more expensive units. That's a win-win.

You have a 5+ save against a Heldrake. No, its not as painful as it is for Space Marines, but it still hurts. You'll take more wounds than if it were a Flamer, and have a worse save. You will be losing more models still. Plus Vector Strike. With regards to the rest:

A 5+ save on a 13 point model against a Helldrake is quite significant. If all a Helldrake does all game is try to kill Flayed Ones, I've effectively taken the Helldrake out of the game. And, in regards to the Flamer, they DON'T have a worse save. A 4+ AND RP is exactly the same mathematically as a 3+. If the Flayed Ones have a Res Orb, they are more resilient in this case.

- Whirlwinds are cheap and cheerful and available to every Space Marine army out there.
- Imperial Guard have Eradicators, Hellhounds, Bane Wolfs, Colossus, and Deathstrikes.
- Tau have Markerlights, Multi-spectrum Sensor Suites, and Smart Missile Systems
- CSM have Baleflamers, Blastmasters and Sonic Blasters on top of normal Flamers

Yes I'm well aware of all the normal cover save ignoring mechanics in the game. I'm not sure what the point of this is.

All of the above either just make you straight up dead or take away your 2+ Cover Save and make you use your 4+.

Oh that was the point? Yeah, that's simply not true. You always get RP, and usually get the 4+ against most of the things you just mentioned. IE, you are equal to or superior to a MEq in all of those cases. Do those weapons "straight up" make MEq dead?

And that says nothing of the fact that every piece of terrain granting you cover is not going to be Area Terrain, except maybe at your home. At a tournament it definitely won't be the case. And if its not Area Terrain, then all Small/Large Blast weapons hurt you terribly, since you treat the center of the blast as the direction the shot came from.

Nova? Adepticon? Every major tournament has at least one piece of area terrain in each quarter. I think your local meta is effecting your perception here.

Correct about Area Terrain and Going To Ground, but you seem to be forgetting that not all terrain is going to actually be Area Terrain, especially at a tournament. So yes its something to consider but not something that be counted on.

I'm not forgetting anything. I'm speaking from experience. Any tournament worth its salt has extensive area terrain.

The thing is, your tactic doesn't depend on Flayed Ones. You just seem to have an arbitrary attachment to them IMO. You have a ton of maybes going on here:

- There is an objective near terrain
- The terrain is area terrain
- The enemy's deployment allows me to start in the area terrain
- The enemy's deployment allows me to credibly threaten the objective
- I can get close enough to the objective in a single turn, even ignoring I'm moving through cover, to credibly threaten the objective

Area terrain being next to objectives is extremely prolific in this game. You may play on planet bowling ball at your local store, but that's not a very good indication of how most major tournaments are run.

However, my tactic doesn't rely on any of that. Its just regularly occurring events I can take advantage of. If there are no objectives on the flanks or peripheries of the opponents formation, which is incredibly rare, I simply hunt heavy weapons squads, or in the case of VP, try to kill a unit and then make them as hard to kill as possible.

I shoot at your Flayed Ones, you Go To Ground. You now aren't charging or moving, you are pinned down. So I can shoot at you again, and again, and you are going to keep Going To Ground and just taking the hits?

If you keep shooting at them? Hell yeah I am. While you are wasting your time trying to kill 20 3++/RP models, my Wraiths/DLord/TPs are making short work of the rest of your army.

I'm still trying to figure out why you'd take Flayed Ones over more Warriors.

The flexible deployment (built in, requiring no additional points spent) and the dramatically different CC abilities.

Nothing about your tactic seems to really need Flayed Ones.

Except for the flexible deployment and the dramatically different CC abilities?

Again, they are equal in point cost and in resiliency to enemy shooting but Warriors can claim that objective instead of just contesting it.

Irrelevant. A single contested objective will win you the game in most cases, assuming you can hold onto your own.

They both are likely to get to the objective around the same time, unless your enemy deploys foolishly.

That's not even remotely true, and simply portrays your lack of experience with this idea.

If you are just Going To Ground all the time, you obviously don't need their close combat capabilities (which are slightly worse than CSM/Grey Hunters since they are all normal attacks).

Uh...They will still come in handy even they get assaulted, and they are still a threat of CC prior to going to ground. Action and reaction. Action...and reaction.

Also, last time I checked, CSM and Grey Hunters just rely on normal attacks to, for the most part. And they have less of them. And Grey Hunters are reliant on Counter Attack (which fails 30% of the time) and a once per game banner to have a chance against Flayed Ones. Take away the banner and CA, and Flayed Ones mow right over them.

So please, convince me! Why are Flayed Ones superior to Warriors?

I've said it a million times. Flayed Ones are vastly superior to Warriors in CC, and have much more flexible deployment options. Its up to you to prove me wrong here. Show me how Flayed Ones will fold just as easily to Warriors in CC. Show me how your are going to get Warriors onto an opponents objective without spending 100 to 115 additional points. Please.

1.
One thing you seem to be doing is comparing Flayed Ones to Canoptek Wraiths, and you seem to be doing this the wrong way. Flayed Ones are 13 points a model, and Wraiths are 35 points a model. That's how far you go. The problem with this is that you are sometimes saying Flayed Ones are more durable, point for point, or other times you seem to be saying that you'd rather have the Flayed Ones be shot at because they are cheaper than the Wraiths.

Your analysis is deeply flawed however. You are comparing models, not wounds and you are ignoring their Armor Save.

Wraiths have two wounds each. So price per wound is 17.5 points, not 35 points. So we have 4.5 points in difference per model, or 2.25 points per wound. Their armor save is 17% better than that of the Flayed Ones. That's 7.56% more durability per point difference. They are missing Reanimation Protocol however, which hurts a bit.

But wait, Wraith are also better than Flayed Ones in close combat! They are Fearless, Strength 6, have a 3++ Save, and most importantly have Rending. They also have other options to increase their capabilities further in close combat (Whip Coils being favorite).

6 Wraith (12 wounds) have a base cost of 210 points. 16 Flayed Ones (16 wounds) cost 208 points. At first glance, Flayed Ones are more durable. But its not the case:
Even assuming you have a cover save, and that the weapon hitting you doesn't Ignore Cover, Wraiths are more resistant to enemy shooting than the same points worth of Flayed Ones unless the Flayed Ones are Going To Ground. Furthermore, Wraiths are far more durable in close combat to enemy attacks thanks to their 3++ Save. Point for point.

To me, Flayed Ones don't do anything that Canoptek Wraiths don't do better. The only one thing is that they can take a 20 wound unit (albeit for 260 points) that is slow to move around and vulnerable to shooting (if you spread out so Blasts and Templates have minimal effect, you likely aren't going to be able to fit the unit entirely in Area Terrain, which means they can be Focus Fired. No matter what you do, something is going to do well shooting you).

Wraiths are Jump Infantry that always ignore Difficult Terrain and Dangerous Terrain. They are far more capable of maneuvering to threaten an objective or enemy unit, and they are at least potentially capable of assaulting on the first turn. They can also act, and are never less durable depending on circumstances. All of this makes them more reliable and consistent, which is why they are the more competitive choice.

Sure, they are in different slots. But there is no reason not to take Wraith, and if you take Wraith there doesn't seem to be any real reason to take Flayed Ones. They have the same roles, and the Wraith are capable of filling other roles as well! Ignoring close combat, there doesn't seem to be any point to taking Flayed Ones over more Warriors either.

So other than for "fluffy" reasons, why would you actually want to take Flayed Ones? In what army list do they actually have a clear purpose and role? A purpose and role that isn't better served, point for point, by a different unit?

2.

ShadarLogoth wrote:You seem to be interpreting a very binary strategy, and that's probably my fault for how I'm describing it. You threaten with CC. If they put a unit between you and the objective (or on the objective) you kill it, with CC. If they run away and stay out of your assault range, you mosey your way onto the objective. If they position a vast amount of firepower to shoot at you, you go to ground. Action and reaction. The point I was making was, they either make it to the objective or they eat a bunch of firepower that could have gone into more expensive units. That's a win-win.

A) Flayed Ones have a 8"-18" threat range. On average its only an 11" threat range.
B) Flayed Ones have an average movement of 9" when Running.
C) Flayed Ones have to be 18" away from the enemy on Turn 1.
D) Flayed Ones are effected by Difficult Terrain.
E) Flayed Ones are slightly less durable than MEQ. Statistically, you are likely to have killed as many models due to RP but Flayed Ones and Necron Warrior units are more likely to have to take a Morale test than MEQ since RP happens after such tests.

It doesn't take a vast amount of firepower to really hurt MEQ. It definitely won't to hurt Flayed Ones. Going To Ground is only good if you are already contesting an objective, otherwise your unit is useless. Once you Go To Ground I can stop shooting at you and focus on other units and I won't have to worry about you for a whole other turn.

So Flayed Ones are a one trick pony? So far the only thing the seem to be able to do is Go To Ground on an objective, and other units can do that if that is what is going to win you the game. Why spend the not-inconsiderable points on them over a different unit when any unit can do that? Infiltrating alone is not good enough.

3.
Rebuttals to your rebuttals of my rebuttals (woo!) that are probably too long to bother reading:

Can any other unit in the 40k universe accurately reenact Michael Jackson's Thriller video better than a 20-man squad of Flayed Ones led in a synchronized dance by a vinyl red jacket wearing jerry-curl wigged Overlord?

Your argument is invalid.

 Badablack wrote:
Can any other unit in the 40k universe accurately reenact Michael Jackson's Thriller video better than a 20-man squad of Flayed Ones led in a synchronized dance by a vinyl red jacket wearing jerry-curl wigged Overlord?

Your argument is invalid.

That depends on your conversion skill, and the base model or green stuff skill. I'm sure someone could make a bunch of space marines moonwalk into assault or something, I'm also sure that person won't be me.

Your analysis starts with the assumption that Wraiths never have Whipcoils. That simply isn't the case. And it effects their RPP values.

Furthermore, you ignore mechanics like cover saves, which are ubiquitous, night fighting, which is easy to get as Necron player, and going to ground, which any good general will do if the opponent is setting up in good position to shoot them. You also ignore the fact that S8+ weapons double up on Wraiths, making them VASTLY inferior in RPP. And its not even close.

Then you break it down per wound, but per wound is irrelevant. Break it down per point spent (you did mention the Wraiths spend 4.5 more points per wound, but you kind of glossed over the fact).

Once you factor in all the things that regularly occur in games, Flayed Ones are simply much more resilient per point spent then Wraiths. If you are unfamiliar how RPP works, I can probably find you some articles describing it.

Here, let me break it down for you to highlight the flaws. I'm not doing this to be a jerk, I truly appreciate the interest you have taken in the topic, but its important that we are on the same page here.

Even assuming you have a cover save, and that the weapon hitting you doesn't Ignore Cover, Wraiths are more resistant to enemy shooting than the same points worth of Flayed Ones unless the Flayed Ones are Going To Ground. Furthermore, Wraiths are far more durable in close combat to enemy attacks thanks to their 3++ Save. Point for point.

Simply not true. Please see above.

To me, Flayed Ones don't do anything that Canoptek Wraiths don't do better. The only one thing is that they can take a 20 wound unit (albeit for 260 points) that is slow to move around and vulnerable to shooting (if you spread out so Blasts and Templates have minimal effect, you likely aren't going to be able to fit the unit entirely in Area Terrain, which means they can be Focus Fired. No matter what you do, something is going to do well shooting you).

They are more resilient. Redo the math. Base on per point, not per wound. Factor in the S8+. Factor in cover, GtG, Night Fighting. Basically, the Flayed Ones start in a superior position, and can magnify that superior position in a variety of regularly occurring ways. Oh yeah, and I haven't even mentioned Res Orbs.

Sure, they are in different slots. But there is no reason not to take Wraith, and if you take Wraith there doesn't seem to be any real reason to take Flayed Ones. They have the same roles, and the Wraith are capable of filling other roles as well! Ignoring close combat, there doesn't seem to be any point to taking Flayed Ones over more Warriors either.

They don't perform the same roles at all. This is the biggest mistake people make when comparing the two. Flayed Ones camp and contest enemy objectives. I would very rarely use Wraiths in that capacity, quite simply because they are inferior to Flayed Ones in that role. They cannot GtG, or get Res Orbs, or benefit from Night Fighting. It's MUCH easier to dislodge 6 Wraiths on and objective via shooting then it is 20 Flayed Ones (who are generally more expensive, but Wraith can't take more, another limitation to their mechanics).

So other than for "fluffy" reasons, why would you actually want to take Flayed Ones? In what army list do they actually have a clear purpose and role? A purpose and role that isn't better served, point for point, by a different unit?

Because they are the superior choice. Look at everything with an open mind and really analyze all the factors, and if your are being intellectually honest you should be able to see that.

A) Flayed Ones have a 8"-18" threat range. On average its only an 11" threat range.
B) Flayed Ones have an average movement of 9" when Running.
C) Flayed Ones have to be 18" away from the enemy on Turn 1.
D) Flayed Ones are effected by Difficult Terrain.
E) Flayed Ones are slightly less durable than MEQ. Statistically, you are likely to have killed as many models due to RP but Flayed Ones and Necron Warrior units are more likely to have to take a Morale test than MEQ since RP happens after such tests.

MEq has Leadership 8 or 9, versus Leadership 10, so that's really not true. Also, again, for the millionth time, once you start factoring in the large and ever present ways Flayed Ones have at their disposal to increase their resiliency, that are completely superior to MEq. They are also cheaper, by a large margin in many cases.

Also, you seem to assume they are Infiltrating? Its just one of the three options. They also have Outflank and Deep Strike, which can be further amplified by Imotehk. (You might see a running trend here, Imotehk does a lot to amplify Flayed Ones viability).

Going To Ground is only good if you are already contesting an objective, otherwise your unit is useless.

That's simply not true. Stay alive to be able to contest the objective turn 5+. Going to ground within the same neighborhood of the objective is completely conducive to this goal.

So Flayed Ones are a one trick pony? So far the only thing the seem to be able to do is Go To Ground on an objective, and other units can do that if that is what is going to win you the game. Why spend the not-inconsiderable points on them over a different unit when any unit can do that? Infiltrating alone is not good enough.

A.) If your "one trick" is performing a vital task in the vast majority of competitive scenarios, its a pretty good "trick". B.) Because ANY unit cannot also use CC to clear the objective (some can, like Wraiths, but then you are utilizing them correctly staying there). They (assuming Warriors) also aren't any threat at all to defend the objective with CC. You seem to forget that GtG doesn't really cost the Flayed Ones anything when defending against an assault, in most cases.

Rebuttal, Rebuttal, Rebuttal, Rebuttal time .

 NecronLord3 wrote:

You cannot assault from an outflank, you'll be destroyed if you have to walk to the enemy, you'll have the entire weight of an opposing army's undamaged points cost on you if you infiltrate. You can't assault from any vehicle or Obyrons Deepstrike. No RC members can be attached, they can't hurt anything but AR10 vehicles. They cannot score.

1560 pts gives you 120 warriors if you want a more boots on the ground approach and that gives you far more combat effectiveness than FOs are capable of achieving.

Well you're almost right. In fact, what will happen si the enemy will try. And maybe succeed. And it wont matter because the actual main parts of the army will then have the freedom to do their thinig,. No such thing as a game of Warhammer in a vacuum. I'd rather the enemy try to move close enough to double tap and get caught by my second unit than have no choice in the matter.

I cannot tell you that the path to victory will be clear, no matter what you do. What I can say is that those of us who use infiltrating and outflanking units to a heavy extent have learned the value of the half court press. It just takes creativity and a plan, like everything else. Good luck!

 Jancoran wrote:

 NecronLord3 wrote:

You cannot assault from an outflank, you'll be destroyed if you have to walk to the enemy, you'll have the entire weight of an opposing army's undamaged points cost on you if you infiltrate. You can't assault from any vehicle or Obyrons Deepstrike. No RC members can be attached, they can't hurt anything but AR10 vehicles. They cannot score.

1560 pts gives you 120 warriors if you want a more boots on the ground approach and that gives you far more combat effectiveness than FOs are capable of achieving.

Well you're almost right. In fact, what will happen si the enemy will try. And maybe succeed. And it wont matter because the actual main parts of the army will then have the freedom to do their thinig,. No such thing as a game of Warhammer in a vacuum. I'd rather the enemy try to move close enough to double tap and get caught by my second unit than have no choice in the matter.

I cannot tell you that the path to victory will be clear, no matter what you do. What I can say is that those of us who use infiltrating and outflanking units to a heavy extent have learned the value of the half court press. It just takes creativity and a plan, like everything else. Good luck!

Yes I totally agree with your tactic in reference to "in a vacuum". However I was specifically making a reference to the Tau. They need only to wound 20 times if you bring the largest squad of Flaued Ones possible, and that really is not much considering they will get at least Two rounds of shooting to pull it off. Tau can also ignore the squad and wait for you to assault and then they can pull out their overwatch special rules to throw a ton of free shots on the FOs. If you do this as early as you suggest, there won't even be other targets the Tau will have to choose to OW against. The only viable tactic I see FO accomplishing is a late game outflank when the enemy is threatened by multiple units. However it would take allot of luck as you need the right board edge to deploy from and the luck that they don't arrive on turn 2. But this is really something that 10 immortals or 15 warriors in a Night scythe can really do better for a little more points and you get an additional flyer or the option to attach RC members.

ShadarLogoth wrote:
Your analysis starts with the assumption that Wraiths never have Whipcoils. That simply isn't the case. And it effects their RPP values.

Not every Wraith in a unit will have Whip Coils. The two Necron players down here I normally play against both tend to take 1-2 per 5 Wraith and they use the 'naked' Wraith to take the hits first. So you are looking at an increased point cost per wound of 4-5 if you factor them in usually.

More importantly however, that's not how you compare units. You have to consider what the upgrade is offering you in your analysis. Your argument would be like comparing 10 Grey Hunters with 2 Flamers to 10 Grey Hunters with 2 Plasma Guns and saying that the Flamer unit is the better unit by RPP and thus taking the Plasma Gun unit is a waste. That doesn't consider all the angles.

When comparing units resilience per point you take the base unit, as that lets you see how tough the selection is per model and for the unit for the initial cost of taking the unit.

ShadarLogoth wrote:
Furthermore, you ignore mechanics like cover saves, which are ubiquitous, night fighting, which is easy to get as Necron player, and going to ground, which any good general will do if the opponent is setting up in good position to shoot them. You also ignore the fact that S8+ weapons double up on Wraiths, making them VASTLY inferior in RPP. And its not even close.

When analyzing a unit you have to start with the basics. That would be the unit in Open Terrain. Its a very realistic possibility you will be in Open Terrain (are you forgetting that Focus Fire means that any model not in the Area Terrain doesn't get a cover save?) and if you are in close combat you will effectively be in Open Terrain when it comes to taking hits. This is especially true when comparing a unit to another unit, as in most cases both units can benefit from Cover Saves. I'll grant you this is less of the case with Wraith.

And you are correct, I did not analyze the resilience of the units on a per wound basis versus S8+ weapons. Possibly short sighted of me, as I keep analyzing things using Space Wolves as my MEQ since I'm most familiar with them of all my armies. SW tend to have fewer S8+ weapons than most, outside of Long Fangs. And since they double as the sole ranged anti-tank, and most Necron lists I come across tend to run 2-3 Annihilation Barges plus a few Nightscythes, I didn't bother to run the numbers for that.

Instant Death is definitely an effect to worry about, but you need to keep in mind that there won't be a large volume of S8+ weapons usually. A Long Fang Pack with 5 Missile Launchers,
a fairly common unit to face, is only causing 0.93 unsaved wounds. That means, with Instant Death factored in, a Long Fang Pack has a 93% chance of killing one Wraith.

Outside of Cover (either because you aren't in cover or are getting Focus Fired) that same Long Fang Pack is causing 2.78 unsaved wounds to the Flayed Ones (1.85 after RP is factored in). With a 5+ Cover Save its 1.85/1.24, with a 4+ its 1.39/0.93, with a 3+ its 0.93/0.62 and with a 2+ get 0.46/0.31

Considering the size of the units, how much this "hurts" is surprisingly close outside of Cover. 13%-19% of the unit dying (Flayed Ones) versus 17% of the unit (Wraith) when going with my original examples getting shot by 5 BS 4 Krak Missiles.

ShadarLogoth wrote:
Then you break it down per wound, but per wound is irrelevant. Break it down per point spent (you did mention the Wraiths spend 4.5 more points per wound, but you kind of glossed over the fact).

Point in fact, I didn't gloss over it. I merely pointed out that there is more to unit analysis than resiliency per point, and highlighted some (but not all) of the Other Stuff you get for those extra points per wound. Frankly, you are the one glossing over things if you ignore what you get for the extra 4.5 points per wound: Increased Strength, Fearless, Rending, a 3++ Save (Open Terrain or in Close Combat this becomes important), Jump Infantry... And that says nothing of having options available to enhance your abilities further. That's an awful lot crammed into those 4.5 points per wound.

ShadarLogoth wrote:
Math looks right, but wait, why did you bother making both units the same points but then only kill 20 Bolters worth?

I'm confused by the question. I made the units roughly the same points to compare what would happen if you spent the same amount of points on both options (and before you start, that's not ignoring the fact I can take 4 more wounds in the Flayed One unit from my analysis). What's wrong with running the numbers for 10 Boltguns being fired at the units, given they are likely to encounter a time where this is what happens?

ShadarLogoth wrote:
After that salvo, the Wraiths have lost a little over 1/6th of their starting strength, while the Flayed Ones have lost a little over 1/8th.

Wraith are down 17% and the Flayed Ones are down 13%, yes. The Flayed Ones also one unsaved wound away from having to take a Morale Test. Granted, only 9% chance to fail, but you can't just ignore it.

ShadarLogoth wrote:
The plasma wounds then ignore cover, which is a scenario that quite simply almost never occurs. I run my Flayed Ones with Imotehk, so for the first 3 or 4 turns they have at least a 4+ cover save, 2+ if they GtG in any area terrain. Factor that in and the disparity increases dramatically.

Tau have Night Vision available on the cheap or free with many units. Searchlights are available for free or cheap on many vehicles for most other armies. So you might not be benefiting from Night Fighting. Furthermore, stick a Wraith unit in Area Terrain and while it can't Go To Ground it can definitely get a 2+ Cover Save if its far enough away.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

Even assuming you have a cover save, and that the weapon hitting you doesn't Ignore Cover, Wraiths are more resistant to enemy shooting than the same points worth of Flayed Ones unless the Flayed Ones are Going To Ground. Furthermore, Wraiths are far more durable in close combat to enemy attacks thanks to their 3++ Save. Point for point.

Simply not true. Please see above.

Which part was untrue? It all looks true to me. Flayed Ones are more resilient when they Go To Ground and get a 3+/2+ Cover Save. Wraith are more resilient in the Open and in Close Combat.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

To me, Flayed Ones don't do anything that Canoptek Wraiths don't do better. The only one thing is that they can take a 20 wound unit (albeit for 260 points) that is slow to move around and vulnerable to shooting (if you spread out so Blasts and Templates have minimal effect, you likely aren't going to be able to fit the unit entirely in Area Terrain, which means they can be Focus Fired. No matter what you do, something is going to do well shooting you).

They are more resilient. Redo the math. Base on per point, not per wound. Factor in the S8+. Factor in cover, GtG, Night Fighting. Basically, the Flayed Ones start in a superior position, and can magnify that superior position in a variety of regularly occurring ways. Oh yeah, and I haven't even mentioned Res Orbs.

1. Why would you ignore how resilient a unit is per wound? You have to take that into consideration as well as the price per wound. So in your opinion Chaos Cultists are vastly more resilient compared to Chaos Space Marines? You may not realize it, but that's what you are saying.

2. As above, I factored in the S8. We're maybe losing 1 Wraith and we're losing 1-3 Flayed Ones if we have 5 BS 4 Krak Missiles coming at us. Probably only 1 dead Flayed One after Reanimation Protocol. Good to know "in a vacuum" information.

3. Going To Ground, again, has its own drawbacks and is not a perfect solution and there is a reason Focus Fire (BRB page 18-19) and Template weapons exists. Don't assume you'll have a Cover Save. You just won't every time.

4. Night Fighting, also again, isn't a guaranteed source of protection. There are abundantly available ways to negate the Cover Save bonuses from Night Fighting while its going on, and things still can take away or ignore Cover Saves.

5. No, you haven't mentioned Res Orbs. That increases the effective point cost of the unit when calculating RPP. It requires the taking of an Independent Character and eating up an HQ slot (one of which you apparently usually have filled with Imotekh). You are looking at a minimum of 120 or 125 points to give Flayed Ones a Resurrection Orb. A Royal Court can't split off to join Flayed Ones.

For a unit of 20 Flayed Ones, that's an increased cost of 6 points per model, more for smaller units, and more if you take anything else on the Lord. The Lord cannot set up with them on Turn 1 due to Infiltrate as well.

After factoring in the increased point cost and opportunity costs, the slight bump to resiliency you gain suddenly seems a lot less attractive to me when comparing to Wraith.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

Sure, they are in different slots. But there is no reason not to take Wraith, and if you take Wraith there doesn't seem to be any real reason to take Flayed Ones. They have the same roles, and the Wraith are capable of filling other roles as well! Ignoring close combat, there doesn't seem to be any point to taking Flayed Ones over more Warriors either.

They don't perform the same roles at all. This is the biggest mistake people make when comparing the two. Flayed Ones camp and contest enemy objectives. I would very rarely use Wraiths in that capacity, quite simply because they are inferior to Flayed Ones in that role. They cannot GtG, or get Res Orbs, or benefit from Night Fighting. It's MUCH easier to dislodge 6 Wraiths on and objective via shooting then it is 20 Flayed Ones (who are generally more expensive, but Wraith can't take more, another limitation to their mechanics).

So Flayed Ones have only one purpose: camp and contest an objective. They're incapable of doing anything else? More reason not to take them in my book then, given the Codex is full of units that can do that. That goes in circles back to where I started questioning what you were saying, why wouldn't I just use Warriors to do this so I could claim the 3 VP instead of just denying it?

Also, why can't Wraith benefit from Night Fighting? Stick them in Area Terrain and they still get a 2+ Save...

ShadarLogoth wrote:
[Flayed Ones] are the superior choice. Look at everything with an open mind and really analyze all the factors, and if your are being intellectually honest you should be able to see that.

I'm definitely approaching this with an open mind. I prefer using the underdog units, or units that the general opinion is negative and doing well with them. At the same time though, there are just choices in this game that never really make sense and the more we argue here the more I'm just having the negative notions of Flayed Ones reinforced. Maybe there is a reason you don't see them at tournaments usually.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

A) Flayed Ones have a 8"-18" threat range. On average its only an 11" threat range.
B) Flayed Ones have an average movement of 9" when Running.
C) Flayed Ones have to be 18" away from the enemy on Turn 1.
D) Flayed Ones are effected by Difficult Terrain.
E) Flayed Ones are slightly less durable than MEQ. Statistically, you are likely to have killed as many models due to RP but Flayed Ones and Necron Warrior units are more likely to have to take a Morale test than MEQ since RP happens after such tests.

MEq has Leadership 8 or 9, versus Leadership 10, so that's really not true. Also, again, for the millionth time, once you start factoring in the large and ever present ways Flayed Ones have at their disposal to increase their resiliency, that are completely superior to MEq. They are also cheaper, by a large margin in many cases.

What does the MEQ Leadership value make not true? The only thing related to Ld value I mentioned is that Flayed Ones/Warriors are slightly less durable than MEQ (4+ save vs 3+; they both benefit from cover equally) and that they'd have to take Morale Tests more often, which is true on both counts. Also, with Night Fighting in effect, MEQ benefit from it just as much as Flayed Ones do if you are comparing their resiliency... And they are only 2-3 points cheaper than MEQ, so I don't see that as a "large margin".

But really, that was a comparison of Flayed Ones vs Wraith. A-D are all unaddressed I note.

ShadarLogoth wrote:
Also, you seem to assume they are Infiltrating? Its just one of the three options. They also have Outflank and Deep Strike, which can be further amplified by Imotehk. (You might see a running trend here, Imotehk does a lot to amplify Flayed Ones viability).

Imotekh does a lot to amplify all your forces, not just Flayed Ones. Since its an equal bump I'm failing to see how he makes Flayed Ones better than alternatives. They'd have to be better than the alternatives to begin with to be better with Imotekh.

You are either Infiltrating, Outflanking, or Deep Striking. I've been consistent in saying that. Comments made by you earlier seemed to be negative of Outflanking and Deep Strike, and frankly Infiltrating is the most reliable way to get them anywhere.

If you Deep Strike with a 20 man unit, you are very susceptible to Deep Strike mishaps and you are bunched up perfectly to get hit by Blast and Template weapons. All they can do is Run and Go to Ground when they arrive, and the best cover save you are going to have is likely to be a 6+ from Going to Ground (you mishap if you land in terrain).

If you Outflank it depends entirely on where objectives were placed to be a threat. You show up, its a toss up if you have cover (which will limit how far in you can move) and all you can do is Run and Go to Ground. You probably won't want to Go to Ground since you shouldn't be close enough to contest an Objective without a turn of movement. The plus side is the enemy only has 2-3 turns to deal with the unit instead of 5.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

Going To Ground is only good if you are already contesting an objective, otherwise your unit is useless.

That's simply not true. Stay alive to be able to contest the objective turn 5+. Going to ground within the same neighborhood of the objective is completely conducive to this goal.

But you have to get into the neighborhood. 6" + D6" of movement, and its a 3" buffer around the objective. So on average you need to be within 12" of the Objective. Or worse, you have to move through difficult terrain and its 2D6" (pick the highest) + D6" of movement, so you need to be within 9" of the Objective.

You aren't going to start out that close to an enemy objective most of the time, there will be at least a turn of movement where you can't Go to Ground. Be it early on, or later on.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

So Flayed Ones are a one trick pony? So far the only thing the seem to be able to do is Go To Ground on an objective, and other units can do that if that is what is going to win you the game. Why spend the not-inconsiderable points on them over a different unit when any unit can do that? Infiltrating alone is not good enough.

A.) If your "one trick" is performing a vital task in the vast majority of competitive scenarios, its a pretty good "trick". B.) Because ANY unit cannot also use CC to clear the objective (some can, like Wraiths, but then you are utilizing them correctly staying there). They (assuming Warriors) also aren't any threat at all to defend the objective with CC. You seem to forget that GtG doesn't really cost the Flayed Ones anything when defending against an assault, in most cases.

A) Contesting objectives is vital to the game, but there are other units that can do it nearly as well and still others that can do it just as well and all of the alternatives also bring other options to the table. If your unit can only do one thing its easier to negate it. As I mentioned previously, the only time Flayed Ones contesting an objective becomes immediately pressing is when you have an even number of Objectives. If you have an odd number, there are other units you have that must be claiming objectives, so why wouldn't I just go take them away from you and let your non-scoring unit "keep" whatever objective they went for?

B) Flayed Ones aren't clearing much of anything with an assault most of the time though. And its not enough to be engaged with an enemy unit to have them not claim the objective, they just need a model within 3" of it at the end of the game. You have no grenades, so you are hitting at Initiative 1 if the Objective is near cover (as you like to say it will usually be), more and more units are bringing defensive grenades, and not all your models will be contributing attacks (particularly if you are spread out so as to not get owned by Blast and Template weapons).

And again, for them to do the clearing out that means they can't have Gone To Ground!

ShadarLogoth wrote:

Any unit that is actually good at close combat can beat them handily.

Simply not true. TH/SS Termies, or really any I1 Termies. Guard blobs (which I think most people would admit are quite respectable in CC). Those are just two prominent examples of units that are above mediocre in CC that Flayed Ones can quite easily take.

If you are assaulting, you are likely assaulting through cover and are Initiative 1. But we'll assume you get your Initiative 2.

TH/SS TDA:

IG Blob:
So looking at the numbers, I wouldn't call either of your examples "mediocre". I wouldn't say you can "easily" take them. You'd have to have quite a lot of luck on your side to come out on top.

Shoot, Flayed Ones are iffy about coming on top with my favorite troop unit:
So the examples you gave are going to rock Flayed Ones most of the time, and very basic Grey Hunter pack is what will have "mediocre" performance. Many Grey Hunter packs will bring at least one Power Weapon on top of the Grey Hunter (in the form of the attached Wolf Guard), which will typically tip the balance into the Grey Hunter's favor.

Truly, the lack of special close combat attacks is very much hurting the potential of the Flayed ones.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

That makes close combat a bad choice IMO. If your second best close combat unit (compared to other units in your Codex) doesn't have a better than 50% chance of winning against mediocre close combat units, you have a problem.

Where did this come from? This an assertion without any facts backing it up.

The facts have been sprinkled around in my replies. What units of yours are anywhere near what could be called effective in close combat, other than your Lords? Wraith, Flayed Ones, Lychguard. Honestly, I'd say Lychguard are your second best unit looking at it again. Those aforementioned Grey Hunters are taking down only 1-2 on the charge, while 3 Lychguard are likely killing 2-3 Grey hunters. Lychguard are superior against your typical unit, while combat specialists will actually have a harder time with Wraith.

ShadarLogoth wrote:
Going to ground in Area Terrain is a 3+, a 2+ if you have Stealth from Night Fighting.

Its an extremely strong argument. In fact, it is the very basis of why Flayed Ones are good at what they do. Your inability to see that is clouding your judgement.

No, I just know that you won't always get a 3+/2+ cover save.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

You are missing my point: anyone bringing up how Flayed Ones take getting shot at in this thread is treated with you saying "Just Go To Ground". You are arguing things in a vacuum.

No, I'm arguing things from experience.

Which would be what is called "anecdotal evidence" which is a fallacy.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

At some point, at some time, you will have to deal with the fact you aren't Going To Ground in order to do something. And that effects how durable the Flayed Ones will be a lot worse than your favorite counter example, the Wraith.

I...don't even know what you are implying here. They are more resilient then Wraiths prior to going to ground, GtG just dramatically increase that disparity.

Apparently showing you the math, which you yourself said looked correct, isn't enough to show you that you are mistaken here. Or its going in one ear and out the other without actually being processed.

The example I gave before shows that 20 Bolters are taking out the same number of wounds (2.22) to Wraith and Flayed Ones. In fact, the Flayed Ones only take 2.22 wounds on account of Reanimation Protocol. They technically take more unsaved wounds. That same example also shows that once you get AP 4 weapons factored in, the Flayed Ones start suffering more wounds than the Wraith. And furthermore, as I showed earlier in this post, if you consider S8+ weapons (which are generally limited of number and have to deal with other targets like vehicles as well) it takes ~5 of them to kill 1 Wraith, while ~5 of them can kill 1-3 Flayed Ones, though likely only 1 is staying dead thanks to RP.

And that's all if we're in Open Terrain. Flayed Ones are not any more resilient than Wraith without Cover Saves and Going To Ground. That's just the hard numbers. So your statement is patently false.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

Again, because you only care about defending your point as if it has no drawbacks you are missing my point entirely. I'm not trying to "settle" anything. I'm responding to comments you made that are tactically unsound. You don't throw TWC at certain units, because the TWC unit is expensive and has a small number of wounds.

No, you were bringing a random unit into the argument that completely ignores the context of the list the Flayed Ones are in, which very well might have a good solution for that unit. It's a bit of a strawman tactic. My argument doesn't rely on the Flayed Ones being able to take TWC, so the fact that they can't (reliably), is largely irrelevant.

How is it a starwman tactic? Look, there are two ways to analyse units here: In a vacuum, and considering what they are likely to run into. TWC are a popular unit in competitive Space Wolves lists. Flayed Ones are the perfect unit to throw them into. Wraith, particularly a unit of Wraith lead by a DLord like in your example are exactly the kind of unit you don't want to send TWC into.

Again, those comments were responding to you and this statement you made:

ShadarLogoth wrote:
But I also have a DLord, Triarch Praetorians, and Wraiths in my list. So I've got other things for your TWC to deal with. I doubt if facing me you would send them at the FOs

So you, yourself appear to know that you can't look at these units only in a vacuum. You have to ask yourself, what is the enemy likely to throw at me?

Nothing I said distracted from the argument. Flayed Ones are vulnerable to a large volume of attacks striking at Initiative 3 or higher. Particularly if a portion of those are Power Weapon attacks. You Going To Ground will not save you there, but having a 3++ might have.

ShadarLogoth wrote:
The threat of CC is all they need. Now, sometimes they do get into CC, and they are so damn resilient they often win with minimal casualties. But, they always have the threat of CC. No matter how you wish to deal with them, you will always have to respect that threat. This is the biggest problem people have with CC in this edition. They think that their CC units must be in close combat every single turn to be effective. Its flawed thinking. CC just being a threat helps you control the board. Controlling the board is how you win games.

True, but if my basic troops have a decent chance of coming out of a scrap victorious, let alone my heavy hitters, its not much of a threat. Maybe I'm doing the math wrong, though you yourself say I'm not. Care to show me the math that has you so convinced? Or is this all coming from experience, anecdotal evidence? If its the latter, then I may as well stop talking. I don't know you so your credibility is questionable, and I don't know the circumstances so luck/chance could be a massive factor in why you think what you do. Myself? I'm skeptical. I want to see the numbers showing its a favorable option in close combat against what you are most likely to face off against.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

Uh, you're a little wrong here. They DO have a worse save. Going To Ground doesn't take your RP. A 4+ and RP is < 3+ and RP. Also, you are overlooking things with the Heldrake. You only get the 5+ RP "save" after you take your leadership test. It is possible to break the Flayed Ones with the Heldrake.

MEq have RP? I was comparing Flayed Ones to MEq...actually, you were comparing Flayed Ones to MEq. A 4+ AND RP (Flayed Ones) is equal to a 3+ (MEq). With the Helldrake, you are assuming it does enough casualties to actually force a moral check, and then, again, Leadership 10. So....I don't what else to say...about that /forest-gump .

Was wondering when the name calling would begin.

A 4+ Save and 5+ Reanimation Protocol is equivalent to a 3+ Save against all things AP 5 or worse, yes. Its worse against AP 4, and better against AP 3. But that's beside the point entirely.

The point that you miraculously missed, is that the Heldrake doesn't care if you Go To Ground which, in the context of what I was replying to in the above quoted, is vital information. You were saying that Heldrakes are worthless against your Flayed Ones and that shooting them is a waste of time. You are 100% in the wrong on that count. Between Vector Strike and the Baleflamer, the Heldrake will be more efficient at killing your Gone to Ground Flayed Ones than most anything else the Chaos Player has available to him outside of close combat.

So your argument that I was replying to there is laughably wrong.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

The point is you cannot rely on Going To Ground to give you a better save, so its perfectly valid to run the numbers against the normal 4+ save of the Flayed Ones when sorting out their durability.

Seriously? How prevalent are the ignore cover AP 4 or better weapons? Seriously? Marker lights can be turned off, other then that, the most prominent things you mentioned were either worse then AP 4, or BETTER, meaning they kill MEq just as efficiently...until you get to RP (and the fact that Flayed Ones are cheaper then MEq), and we once again come full circle to the fact that Flayed Ones are incredibly resilient, even against the super scary weapons in the game.

Do you have trouble understanding that a 4+ save is worse than a 3+ or 2+ cover save? I don't get what is so surprisingly that any weapon that ignores cover won't care you had the unit Go To Ground and is more effective against such units than ones that hadn't. I don't care about AP 4, and if you read what you quoted I never said anything about AP 4. I was defending my use of the 4+ Armor Save over the 2+/3+ Cover Save you could potentially get.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

My local meta has plenty of Area Terrain. Shoot, my board at home has plenty of Area Terrain. You seem to think that because there is a piece of Area Terrain in each quarter you'll automatically be able to make use of it. That's just not the case depending on the table and how your enemy deploys. And that says nothing of Servo Skulls/Choosers of the Slain and other options some armies have access to that can hamper your Infiltrating.

They just need to be within striking distance of an objective man. That's generally not too much to ask. Also, you are still assuming Infiltrate. That is probably the least taken option for me, especially when I'm facing servo skulls and the like.

Options man. Options options options.

I like how earlier when talk of Deep Strike and Outflank were mentioned you responded by saying to Infiltrate, and then when use of Infiltrate is mentioned its back to Outflank or Deep Strike.

And now we go back to a section you quoted but tacitly ignored: The limited movement capacity of the Flayed Ones. "Striking distance of an objective" is less than 12" typically.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

Again you are jumping to sketchy conclusions here with regards to the tables I play on. And I'm not sure why. In a tournament the objectives are placed for you, so some of the time yes, you'll have a few Objectives near terrain. But let me make a sketchy conclusion and take a guess that you must play against some players who don't understand how to place objectives when you are in a normal game.

Not at all. Think about this. If they aren't placing their objectives anywhere near area terrain, what does that do to their propensity to hold said objectives? Also, unless your area terrain is only in the far corners, its pretty difficult to place objectives where area terrain is no where near the objectives.

It depends entirely on the army in question. But I'll also repeat myself and point out that the terrain being anywhere near such an objective is a trade off for Flayed Ones. Potentially, they are more protected from enemy shooting. Just as likely, their movement is slowed down and if they needed to charge the enemy they are more likely to fail, and their Initiative being lowered can still be a bad thing. Overall, probably worth the trade off but its still a set of problems that the Wraith just don't have to deal with.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

To me this sounds easier said than done. You hunt heavy weapon squads? Who are you playing against that doesn't protect them? Be it HWT or Devastators, its a vulnerable unit that relies on the rest of your army for protection, which means that against a half-way competent opponent your Flayed Ones are going to have to deal with something else first.

Unless of course my Wraith/TPs/DLord has dealt with them first, right? Hunting heavy weapon squads is their least nominal role, no doubt. More often then not, its the result of a luck Imotehk Scarab role and exploiting a bone head mistake.

I'm almost wondering why you bothered mentioning it at all now, given you state you usually Outflank (or Deep Strike?) them rather than Infiltrate. You'd almost never have opportunity to hunt down enemy heavy weapons.

ShadarLogoth wrote:
Wait, what? I think we lost something in translation their. I want to make them a threat, because I want them to eat bullets instead of anything else in my army. That doesn't mean I want them to die, just that, if the enemy dedicated the firepower it takes to reasonably kill 20 GtG Flayed Ones....well...my Wraiths, TPs, Dlord are about to have a field day .

If you are still taking Wraith and a DLord, they'll be the biggest threat regardless and will draw fire. Your Flayed Ones are eating up at least 14% of your army in points at 1850 and they truly aren't that scary or threatening. Wraith can get expensive fast, and you already are taking Imotekh and a Destroyer Lord. How many scoring units are you taking? It sounds like it'll be easy to prevent you from being able to claim any objective, meaning I just need to worry about secondary objectives and trying to capture one primary.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

Depends on the number of objectives. With 3 objectives, you likely only have to worry about taking one, so you can throw your full weight behind it. With 5 objectives, you likely can contest another one to make it an even fight. The only time its really a major concern is when there are 4 objectives.

Not really. Contesting one objective always makes a big difference, particularly if it is one the opponent was originally counting on, regardless of how many objectives there are.

If its one the opponent was originally counting on its probably being sat on by something you'll have to dislodge, and Flayed Ones aren't that good and doing so. The Wraith and DLord however...

ShadarLogoth wrote:

Lack of experience with the idea? They're Infiltrators. That's it.

That's not it. As you yourself go on to elaborate.

If you are having such an easy time, clearly you don't play against players that know how to deal with Infiltrators.

Or, uh...I just don't infiltrate them....when my opponent has "dealt with" the possibility of infiltrate...?

Do you really Deep Strike them? That's hysterical if you do, they must mishap often in a large unit. If not, then no. They're just Infiltrators. All Infiltrators get to Outflank or Infiltrate. So dealing with them is not substantially different from any other unit with Infiltrate. Except when they Outflank they can't shoot at me.

Hint: When dealing with Outflankers, it helps to not place Objectives near the board edge. If the enemy places his objective near a board edge for outflanking, more power to him. I'd vote on sacrificing that Objective and focusing on the others. Minimizing the effect of a unit can be more efficient than trying to shoot it. Particularly when they are slow and have a small threat radius.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

Deep Strike? By all means! Pile on up for the Template/Blast weapons and, if its a big unit, risk the mishap. Outflank? Slightly more scary but you'll still be far away from the enemy and possibly far away from an objective.

Pin point deep strike? Run (to spread out)? Don't place your units in stupid locations? Flexibly man. You never go into battle with one option in mind. You see what the opponent has, how the terrain is setup, where the objectives are, and decide from there. I sometimes call my Flayed Ones my surgical shotgun. I find the weakest route to an objective, and dictate my deployment accordingly.

Hysterical. To say nothing of how easy it is to have a Deep Strike mishap with such a large unit normally, or to spread out a unit with an average Run distance of 3", but how pray tell do you manage to spread out enough to dodge template/blast weapons when you have to land within 6" of an enemy unit to not scatter? And do you Outflank against those armies where this would be a suicidally bad idea or do you Infiltrate? I'm curious, given your comments regarding both those options previously.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

Leadership 8 has a 72% chance of success, sure. Leadership 9 passes 81% of the time however and Leadership 10 passes 92% of the time. Ignoring that CSM are likely Fearless due to their Icon of Vengeance, Grey Hunters are probably going to be Leadership 9 or 10, depending if they are lead by a Wolf Guard Pack Leader or an HQ.

Seriously? That's some fancy goal posting moving there. I almost never see CSM take IofV. And Wolf Guard/HQ with Grey Hunters is, at best, a 50/50 occurrence. That might be the way you run SW, its not the way most competitive armies run them though.

Odd, I see IoV often enough (usually in just 1 unit) and you definitely see VOTLW a lot for Ld 9.

I'd love to see these numerous competitive lists you allege exist without Wolf Guard. The exact opposite is true. Either they are like Frankie's list where its all Wolf Guard, or they're hoofing it with 11 models in a Grey Hunter pack, or they're Drop Podding in with Wolf Guard to make sure they don't break and have two special weapons since they aren't a full 10 man squad. SW lists with 10 man Grey Hunters squads are around, but it happens a lot less in 6E than in 5E.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

And that's just looking at things in a vacuum. You'll have other threats for the enemy to deal with, and they'll have other units able to deal with those threats and to lend help with the Flayed Ones if they are a credible threat.

Exactly. If it's a well stacked Grey Hunter unit, the Flayed Ones aren't going to be going in at it alone. Throw the DLord in, or just assault them with the Wraiths instead. Etc.

And if you do that, something other than Grey Hunters are going to be part of the fray as well.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

And why should I have to prove you wrong? I've raised legitimate concerns with "the tactic" and run some numbers to see things don't align up perfectly with what you are saying. My concerns are either outright ignored or given responses that are inconsistent in the application of the tactic as you describe it. You also seem to be the only Necron player in the world that espouses the supposed benefits of Flayed Ones.

Your math was accurate, your analysis of that math was flawed. I'm pretty sure I've directly addressed every concern you have raised. Ultimately though, I know they are good. I know the numbers behind why they are good. I've see them in action to confirm they are good.

And I argue that your analysis of the unit and tactics available to you is flawed or just blind.

Do the math on an atypical scenario of Bolters firing at Flayed Ones vs Wraith. The numbers clearly show that once you factor in Reanimation Protocol, both units are just as resilient on a per-wound basis. You say that the Flayed Ones are more resilient to the shooting prior to Going To Ground, despite the number of unsaved wounds caused by end of phase being identical to both units. That's clearly wrong.

Do the math again with lower AP weapons and the Wraith edge out over the Flayed Ones. You say Going To Ground of course solves this. Fair enough, it can. Going To Ground can totally improve the Save vs Shooting for the unit. Provided the entire unit, every model, is in Area Terrain. Provided you aren't taking Barrage fire. Or being shot by a Template weapon. Or the weapon otherwise Ignores Cover. You outright ignore that there are numerous ways, even common ways, of getting around your Cover Save and that with people taking an ADL all the time these things are becoming more and more popular in the global meta.

Do the math against various units you may end up in close combat with. Statistically against most enemies they'll only go into the fight with 15-16 models out of the original 20. Best case scenario. In a vacuum, the Flayed Ones tend to lose the fight the first round and they win some/lose some in the second depending on what they are fighting. Somehow this makes them excellent in close combat, despite clearly needing to be lead by an expensive HQ.

(My apologies here if I'm confusing you with someone else, the thread is starting to blur between our back and forth!) Someone points out the drawbacks of a melee only unit Outflanking, they're told not to. Point out the flaws of Infiltrating, they're told not to. Point out the flaws of Deep Striking, and they are alternatively told not to and told to do it all the time. The draw backs (of which there are a few) of Deep Striking within 6" of the enemy are ignored.

Point out that Template weapons will really hurt Flayed Ones, and you get told to spread them out. The fact that will either be next to impossible to do on the turn they arrive from Deep Strike/Outflanking is ignored. The fact that its very difficult to do if you want to stay in Area Terrain is ignored.

I can keep going on. Someone brings up a problem, and you tell them its not a problem because of X. Meanwhile, doing X causes Y to become a problem. This gets pointed out and you say to do Z. Meanwhile, Z causes X to be a problem. And the cycle continues. You seem to be trying to have your cake and eat it too.

ShadarLogoth wrote:
As for the rest, this hobby is expensive, which simply perpetuates the group think and echo chamber tendencies. Most people who wrote off Flayed Ones did so day 1 and have never looked back. They didn't reanalyze them in 6th, and no one wants to drop 200 dollars of 20 Flayed Ones (which is outragoues) and risk them being bad, especially when the echo chamber (who, for the most part, have never actually used the unit properly) is telling them they are bad.

It's really that simple.

Most people have written off Flayed Ones because they don't contribute much for their point cost and the only way they are remotely viable is with Imotekh, which not all Necron lists take. Given more and more people are willing to spend money on Forge World, how common it is to find stuff cheaply on EBay, and how you could convert the cheaper Necron Warriors, I somehow doubt its the pricetag stopping people.

I'm glad they are working for you. I think its completely silly you are spending 260 points on a unit that pretty much can only contest a single objective, to say nothing of some of the other hidden costs associated with taking them (and I'm not just talking the points in the HQ FOC slot(s)). Against the armies I play as and several I play against, its going to be a little lackluster. For reasons given ad nausem now.

More importantly however, that's not how you compare units. You have to consider what the upgrade is offering you in your analysis. Your argument would be like comparing 10 Grey Hunters with 2 Flamers to 10 Grey Hunters with 2 Plasma Guns and saying that the Flamer unit is the better unit by RPP and thus taking the Plasma Gun unit is a waste. That doesn't consider all the angles.

When comparing units resilience per point you take the base unit, as that lets you see how tough the selection is per model and for the unit for the initial cost of taking the unit.

This is completely wrong. Of course WCs add something to the unit. They also make the unit more expensive. You always calculate RPP based off the total cost of the unit, because that is the effective "hole" in your list when the unit gets shot down. I'm sorry, you simply don't understand how RPP works.

When analyzing a unit you have to start with the basics. That would be the unit in Open Terrain. Its a very realistic possibility you will be in Open Terrain (are you forgetting that Focus Fire means that any model not in the Area Terrain doesn't get a cover save?) and if you are in close combat you will effectively be in Open Terrain when it comes to taking hits. This is especially true when comparing a unit to another unit, as in most cases both units can benefit from Cover Saves. I'll grant you this is less of the case with Wraith.

This is also not true. Since 5th edition and ubiquitous cover saves, the general tendency is to assume cover saves...because they are ubiquitous...AND, you have quite a bit of control over them.

Instant Death is definitely an effect to worry about, but you need to keep in mind that there won't be a large volume of S8+ weapons usually. A Long Fang Pack with 5 Missile Launchers,
a fairly common unit to face, is only causing 0.93 unsaved wounds. That means, with Instant Death factored in, a Long Fang Pack has a 93% chance of killing one Wraith.

How about Battle Cannons, Doomsday Arcs, etc? There are several very pertinent S8+ weapons to consider.

That means, with Instant Death factored in, a Long Fang Pack has a 93% chance of killing one Wraith.

That is not what the math says. It says you will average .93 wounds/salvo (and of course each wound=2). Completely different concept.

Considering the size of the units, how much this "hurts" is surprisingly close outside of Cover. 13%-19% of the unit dying (Flayed Ones) versus 17% of the unit (Wraith) when going with my original examples getting shot by 5 BS 4 Krak Missiles.

Outside of cover is largely irrelevant, and you keep separating RP as if in 95% of all shooting cases you won't get it. That's MUCH less realistic then separating cover. Sorry, you only don't have cover if you choose to not have cover in most cases (or you are playing Tau, etc). You deploy them, not the opponent (well, sometimes that's not true, strictly speaking )

So the rest of your numbers are mostly meaningless. 7.7% of the Flayed One unit dies to the average long fang salvo, versus close ~16% of the Flayed One unit. The better the cover, the bigger the disparity. You are trying to pull in an unrealistic scenario to make your point.

Point in fact, I didn't gloss over it. I merely pointed out that there is more to unit analysis than resiliency per point, and highlighted some (but not all) of the Other Stuff you get for those extra points per wound. Frankly, you are the one glossing over things if you ignore what you get for the extra 4.5 points per wound: Increased Strength, Fearless, Rending, a 3++ Save (Open Terrain or in Close Combat this becomes important), Jump Infantry... And that says nothing of having options available to enhance your abilities further. That's an awful lot crammed into those 4.5 points per wound.

I'm well aware of all those things. I use Wraiths in every game too. But for the purposes of this discussion, ie, who more efficiently eats bullets, who is better at camping an enemy objective, all of those things are completely, 100%, irrelevant.

Wraith are down 17% and the Flayed Ones are down 13%, yes. The Flayed Ones also one unsaved wound away from having to take a Morale Test. Granted, only 9% chance to fail, but you can't just ignore it.

Sure, I guess.

Tau have Night Vision available on the cheap or free with many units. Searchlights are available for free or cheap on many vehicles for most other armies. So you might not be benefiting from Night Fighting. Furthermore, stick a Wraith unit in Area Terrain and while it can't Go To Ground it can definitely get a 2+ Cover Save if its far enough away.

Well of course. The fact is, in the current Meta, outside of Tau, most people simply don't bring anti Night Fighting components. The only time Wraiths ever claim a 2+ Cover Save is in ruins, with Shrouded. It can happen, but it's pretty damn rare (And also means the Wraiths are way to far away from the enemy).

Which part was untrue? It all looks true to me. Flayed Ones are more resilient when they Go To Ground and get a 3+/2+ Cover Save. Wraith are more resilient in the Open and in Close Combat.

You said the words "even assuming cover." So, those words, plus your conclusion, was simply not true. Even without cover, Flayed Ones are still more resilient per point to AP 5+ and S8+. So the last part of your statement isn't even true to the vast majority of shooting and CC attacks in the game.

1. Why would you ignore how resilient a unit is per wound? You have to take that into consideration as well as the price per wound. So in your opinion Chaos Cultists are vastly more resilient compared to Chaos Space Marines? You may not realize it, but that's what you are saying.

That's absolutely true, and is exactly what I'm saying. Why do you think cheap spammy wounds (guard blobs) are dominating the meta, and MEq are sucking ass? Because resiliency per wound is meaningless. Resiliency per point is the foundational mechanic of all durability. It's why Terms struggle so much, because despite their improved save, they are still just really expensive wounds at the end of the day.

3. Going To Ground, again, has its own drawbacks and is not a perfect solution and there is a reason Focus Fire (BRB page 18-19) and Template weapons exists. Don't assume you'll have a Cover Save. You just won't every time.

Are you still trying to say GtG is bad? And way more often then not, I will have cover. Way more often. Way, way more often. You are desperately trying to cling to a mostly irrelevant scenario.

4. Night Fighting, also again, isn't a guaranteed source of protection. There are abundantly available ways to negate the Cover Save bonuses from Night Fighting while its going on, and things still can take away or ignore Cover Saves.

It's no guarantee, sure, but unless you are facing Tau, it's a pretty solid proposition.

. No, you haven't mentioned Res Orbs. That increases the effective point cost of the unit when calculating RPP. It requires the taking of an Independent Character and eating up an HQ slot (one of which you apparently usually have filled with Imotekh). You are looking at a minimum of 120 or 125 points to give Flayed Ones a Resurrection Orb. A Royal Court can't split off to join Flayed Ones.

I'm well aware of how the army I've been playing for one and half years functions, thank you. Your point about the Res Orb is a fair one, but more often then not that Res Orb has been clicking for other units for several turns before it gets moved over to the Flayed Ones, so the cost is pretty well spread out. Also, its attached to a Destroyer Lord, I don't seriously have to justify him to you do I?

For a unit of 20 Flayed Ones, that's an increased cost of 6 points per model, more for smaller units, and more if you take anything else on the Lord. The Lord cannot set up with them on Turn 1 due to Infiltrate as well.

After factoring in the increased point cost and opportunity costs, the slight bump to resiliency you gain suddenly seems a lot less attractive to me when comparing to Wraith.

Yes, again, I'm aware of how my army functions. But I love how you've spent this entire time ignoring Whip Coils, but now you are factoring in both the DLords entire cost AND the Res Orbs entire cost in the unit, without factoring in the extra 3 T6 2+ wounds you are also getting (or the fact that the Res Orb makes the DLord 16.7% more likely to stand up, which awesome, or the fact that the Res Orb could be buffing other units as well, etc). That is not in the least bit intellectually honest, and it's not how the game works.

So Flayed Ones have only one purpose: camp and contest an objective. They're incapable of doing anything else?

'

I never said that. Nice strawman though. I said that is the purpose they excel at. They are hard to kill and its easy to find them a favorable match up in the vast majority of lists in the current "shooty" meta, which are favorable conditions in a pure Kill Point mission as well.

Also, why can't Wraith benefit from Night Fighting? Stick them in Area Terrain and they still get a 2+ Save...

That's not true. It has to be Ruins, and they have to beyond 24". They do benefit beyond 36" like anyone else does though. Both of which scenarios would only realistically occur in your own DZ, not theirs. So, this is not to say that Wraiths NEVER benefit from Night Fighting, just to point out that it is much, much more situational.

I'm definitely approaching this with an open mind. I prefer using the underdog units, or units that the general opinion is negative and doing well with them. At the same time though, there are just choices in this game that never really make sense and the more we argue here the more I'm just having the negative notions of Flayed Ones reinforced. Maybe there is a reason you don't see them at tournaments usually.

Yes, you keep consistently and deliberately placing them in the worst possible and least likely scenarios and they don't look good.... You seem to have a different definition of open minded and intellectually honest then I do.

What does the MEQ Leadership value make not true? The only thing related to Ld value I mentioned is that Flayed Ones/Warriors are slightly less durable than MEQ (4+ save vs 3+; they both benefit from cover equally) and that they'd have to take Morale Tests more often, which is true on both counts. Also, with Night Fighting in effect, MEQ benefit from it just as much as Flayed Ones do if you are comparing their resiliency... And they are only 2-3 points cheaper than MEQ, so I don't see that as a "large margin".

You're correct. I was thinking "more likely to fail a moral check the MEq."

But really, that was a comparison of Flayed Ones vs Wraith. A-D are all unaddressed I note.

It wasn't unaddressed, it was just true (for the most part). Yes, you correctly identified the areas Wraiths are stronger. C...I don't know if you meant that to be a strength or a weakness (wouldn't getting to start closer to the enemy be a good thing for a CC unit...?) but it's also not true. Infiltrate is just one of many options at the Flayed Ones disposal, as I keep trying to tell you.

Imotekh does a lot to amplify all your forces, not just Flayed Ones. Since its an equal bump I'm failing to see how he makes Flayed Ones better than alternatives. They'd have to be better than the alternatives to begin with to be better with Imotekh.

Seriously? I just spent 4 pages identifying how Flayed Ones benefit more from Night Fighting the Wraiths, I pointed out how Imo has an ability that DIRECTLY BUFFS FLAYED ONES AND NO ONE ELSE. Imotehk's mechanics buff CC over shooting intrinsically. So while he buffs Warriors, he also nerfs them. Flayed Ones suffer zero from Imo's mechanics, and only benefit from them.

I'm completely baffled that you actually wrote those words.

You are either Infiltrating, Outflanking, or Deep Striking. I've been consistent in saying that. Comments made by you earlier seemed to be negative of Outflanking and Deep Strike, and frankly Infiltrating is the most reliable way to get them anywhere.

I've consistently said you take the best option available considering the mission, the objectives, the terrain, and the opponents deployment.

If you Deep Strike with a 20 man unit, you are very susceptible to Deep Strike mishaps and you are bunched up perfectly to get hit by Blast and Template weapons.

You just don't get greedy, and you minimize the chance for mishap to less the 5%. Then you run, which more often then not will spread you out plenty.

All they can do is Run and Go to Ground when they arrive, and the best cover save you are going to have is likely to be a 6+ from Going to Ground (you mishap if you land in terrain).

No you don't. You take difficult terrain tests. So (1/6)(1/2)(2/3) of your models might suffer a casualty (ie, maybe 1). Please double check the rules before you try to "school" somebody who has already told you they have used a unit over a 100 times.

If you Outflank it depends entirely on where objectives were placed to be a threat. You show up, its a toss up if you have cover (which will limit how far in you can move) and all you can do is Run and Go to Ground. You probably won't want to Go to Ground since you shouldn't be close enough to contest an Objective without a turn of movement. The plus side is the enemy only has 2-3 turns to deal with the unit instead of 5.

Nova standard uses objectives in the corners or quarters, both of which Outflanking works extremely well in. Other then area terrain, you also have the chances of LOS terrain on the flanks. This is what I'm referring to "choosing the best deployment based on what the board looks like." If the board is setup beneficial to Outflanking, you Outflank. Otherwise, you don't. I don't know if I can make that any clearer.

But you have to get into the neighborhood. 6" + D6" of movement, and its a 3" buffer around the objective. So on average you need to be within 12" of the Objective. Or worse, you have to move through difficult terrain and its 2D6" (pick the highest) + D6" of movement, so you need to be within 9" of the Objective.

You aren't going to start out that close to an enemy objective most of the time, there will be at least a turn of movement where you can't Go to Ground. Be it early on, or later on.

That's just not true from my experiences.

A) Contesting objectives is vital to the game, but there are other units that can do it nearly as well and still others that can do it just as well and all of the alternatives also bring other options to the table. If your unit can only do one thing its easier to negate it. As I mentioned previously, the only time Flayed Ones contesting an objective becomes immediately pressing is when you have an even number of Objectives. If you have an odd number, there are other units you have that must be claiming objectives, so why wouldn't I just go take them away from you and let your non-scoring unit "keep" whatever objective they went for?

There is no just as well, or nearly as well. Your inability to concede that point is making this conversation rather difficult.

Your even/odd number objectives has no basis of relevancy in actual tournaments. I'll lnow which objectives you are planning to hold onto before the Flayed Ones even touch the board. I will force you to deal with them. That is what they are there for.

B) Flayed Ones aren't clearing much of anything with an assault most of the time though. And its not enough to be engaged with an enemy unit to have them not claim the objective, they just need a model within 3" of it at the end of the game. You have no grenades, so you are hitting at Initiative 1 if the Objective is near cover (as you like to say it will usually be), more and more units are bringing defensive grenades, and not all your models will be contributing attacks (particularly if you are spread out so as to not get owned by Blast and Template weapons).

More and more units are bringing defensive grenades? You mean like Fire Warriors? You really think Fire Warriors have a prayer if 20 Flayed Ones come barreling into them? Even if I lost half my models to Overwatch (that is one serious mother fething overwatch), I'm going to clear the Fire Warriors off.

Lack of grenades? I'm I2 dude. You know Wraiths don't have grenades either? And according to you, they never take whip coils anymore so... Also, you only have to be within 3" to contest an objective as well. And, not all of THEIR units will be contributing CC attacks either. You don't seem to have a lot of real experience with CC.

And again, for them to do the clearing out that means they can't have Gone To Ground!

Which turn? Options man. Options. Options. Options. Options. Should I pull out the thesaurus?

If you are assaulting, you are likely assaulting through cover and are Initiative 1. But we'll assume you get your Initiative 2.

TH/SS Termis are sitting in cover? Wait, so I can't assume area terrain for my Flayed Ones, but the TH/SS termies can? LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL wow....

Now to completely dismantle your "scenario." My comments in itallics.

So looking at the numbers, I wouldn't call either of your examples "mediocre". I wouldn't say you can "easily" take them. You'd have to have quite a lot of luck on your side to come out on top.

WOW. Seriously? They straight up, point for point, kick both units ass. I feel like I'm arguing with Stelek.

Yep. I knew it was coming. A Grey Hunter scenario where you assume they pass counter attack (a 70% chance).

Grey Hunters are an extremely efficient CC unit. And yes, for all intents and purposes, they are a CC unit with guns. Point for point they are tough for the Flayed Ones. Luckily, in a good list, Flayed Ones aren't the only thing you are going to throw at them. (See how I didn't take the math, start pretending the Flayed Ones don't really struggle, and say ridiculous things like "I wouldn't say you can "easily" take them. You'd have to have quite a lot of luck on your side to come out on top." That's what we call intellectual honesty. Flayed Ones can take blobs and I1 Terms, but struggle with GH. Will you please concede this point before I start kicking kittens ?)

So the examples you gave are going to rock Flayed Ones most of the time, and very basic Grey Hunter pack is what will have "mediocre" performance. Many Grey Hunter packs will bring at least one Power Weapon on top of the Grey Hunter (in the form of the attached Wolf Guard), which will typically tip the balance into the Grey Hunter's favor.

Do you really not see the discrepancy between how you are approaching the above to examples in this one? Please read back over your words and tell me you don't see the discrepancy.

EDIT: Wait a minute....I just re-read this. After running the numbers...are you actually trying to claim the blobs and Terms "rock" the flayed ones "most of the time." Dude. Tell you what. I'll give you 5 TH/SS Terms (any book you want) and I'll take 15 Flayed Ones. If you win one game out of ten, I'll give you a thousands dollars. Flayed Ones make TH/SS Terms there bitch. I can't believe you can look at those numbers and come away with any other conclusion, LET ALONE THE EXACT OPPOSITE OF WHAT THEY SAY. Jesus tap dancing Christ.

Truly, the lack of special close combat attacks is very much hurting the potential of the Flayed ones.

Weight of attacks is the current name of the game in shooting. Why people pretend its suddenly a bad thing in assault...I have no idea.

The facts have been sprinkled around in my replies. What units of yours are anywhere near what could be called effective in close combat, other than your Lords? Wraith, Flayed Ones, Lychguard. Honestly, I'd say Lychguard are your second best unit looking at it again. Those aforementioned Grey Hunters are taking down only 1-2 on the charge, while 3 Lychguard are likely killing 2-3 Grey hunters. Lychguard are superior against your typical unit, while combat specialists will actually have a harder time with Wraith.

Wow. Way to cherry pick bud. Throw those LG against the Guards and the Terms, and get back to me. LG are also awful in RPP, which the primary reason I take Flayed Ones instead.

No, I just know that you won't always get a 3+/2+ cover save.

Yeah, sure. And ABarges won't always get to shoot before they're dead. And Wraiths won't always reach CC before their dead. And Helldrakes won't always come on till turn 4. Any other units you want to discuss in their worst possible scenarios? All unit have less favorable conditions. All of them. Every, single, unit, in the game, has less favorable conditions. Lack of cover is just as likely as any of those others, if not less so.

Which would be what is called "anecdotal evidence" which is a fallacy.

You don't seem to understand what either anecdotal evidence or fallacies are. Anecdotal would be to say "this one time, they did this this and this." When you have a 100+ games with a unit, your experience starts to raise to the "objectively tested" rather then "randomly anecdotal" level. Do you call all scientific experiments anecdotal just because you weren't there to witness them? I wouldn't think so.

Also, while we are on the subject of fallacies, the fact that you keep alluding to tournament lists is an argument from authority, and most certainly is a fallacy. Feel free to look it up.

Apparently showing you the math, which you yourself said looked correct, isn't enough to show you that you are mistaken here. Or its going in one ear and out the other without actually being processed.

Don't insult me, especially when you are the one talking out of ignorance. I explained to you how your math was right, but your analysis of that math was flawed. You portray a clear lack of understanding regarding RPP. Show some humility.

And that's all if we're in Open Terrain. Flayed Ones are not any more resilient than Wraith without Cover Saves and Going To Ground. That's just the hard numbers. So your statement is patently false.

Cute. I already explained why this wrong above, a couple times now. You either understand it or you don't.

Strawman

It's a strawman because be good against one specific unit (TWC) has nothing to do with whether or not a unit is good in the grand scheme of things. A lot of CC and non CC units struggle against TWC. In fact most units do. The fact that Flayed Ones are included with most units here is largely irrelevant to their viability as a hole. Strawman.

True, but if my basic troops have a decent chance of coming out of a scrap victorious, let alone my heavy hitters, its not much of a threat. Maybe I'm doing the math wrong, though you yourself say I'm not. Care to show me the math that has you so convinced? Or is this all coming from experience, anecdotal evidence? If its the latter, then I may as well stop talking. I don't know you so your credibility is questionable, and I don't know the circumstances so luck/chance could be a massive factor in why you think what you do. Myself? I'm skeptical. I want to see the numbers showing its a favorable option in close combat against what you are most likely to face off against.

Grey Hunters are anything but a "basic unit." They are widely regarded as one of the most efficient units in the game. So, if you built an all foot SW list, and I had to face you, I might struggle a bit. The thing is, all foot SW isn't in the least bit competitive. At all. So you are more likely to have a Drop list (which you have said yourself). So now, you have X points tied up in Pods. I've never once lost to a drop pod list. Ever. This discussion can't portray that, and no amount of math hammering will convince you. I would love to play a game though.

Was wondering when the name calling would begin.

Name calling? I was quoting Forest Gump...? What...I just...huh?

The point that you miraculously missed, is that the Heldrake doesn't care if you Go To Ground which, in the context of what I was replying to in the above quoted, is vital information. You were saying that Heldrakes are worthless against your Flayed Ones and that shooting them is a waste of time. You are 100% in the wrong on that count. Between Vector Strike and the Baleflamer, the Heldrake will be more efficient at killing your Gone to Ground Flayed Ones than most anything else the Chaos Player has available to him outside of close combat.

Sure, I guess. But you are miraculously missing the point that, because of their relatively low point cost and RP, the Flayed Ones are less concerned with a Helldrake then just about anything else in the game, except basic Demon troops I guess. You brought the Helldrake as some sort of counter. It's not. I would love for a Helldrake to waist all game trying to kill Flayed Ones. Sounds like an easy win.

So your argument that I was replying to there is laughably wrong.

Cute.

Do you have trouble understanding that a 4+ save is worse than a 3+ or 2+ cover save? I don't get what is so surprisingly that any weapon that ignores cover won't care you had the unit Go To Ground and is more effective against such units than ones that hadn't. I don't care about AP 4, and if you read what you quoted I never said anything about AP 4. I was defending my use of the 4+ Armor Save over the 2+/3+ Cover Save you could potentially get.

The implication you were making is that it is more likely they won't have cover or it will be ignored. If you really think that, then you must play Tau and Tau only. Tau and Helldrakes. That must be 100% of your meta.

Look, you have two pools of weapons. Ones that ignore cover, and ones that don't. Which pool do you think is bigger? And by god, if you say the ones that ignore cover, I'm sending you to be tonight without desert.

I like how earlier when talk of Deep Strike and Outflank were mentioned you responded by saying to Infiltrate, and then when use of Infiltrate is mentioned its back to Outflank or Deep Strike.

O P T I O N S.

And now we go back to a section you quoted but tacitly ignored: The limited movement capacity of the Flayed Ones. "Striking distance of an objective" is less than 12" typically.

I didn't tacitly ignore anything. I know that you almost never see a tournament board that only has objectives 12" away from all terrain. In fact, I'm not sure if I've ever seen that, in 13 years of playing this game, unless it was just a "fun" demo game on planet bowling ball.

Overall, probably worth the trade off but its still a set of problems that the Wraith just don't have to deal with.

Yep.

I'm almost wondering why you bothered mentioning it at all now, given you state you usually Outflank (or Deep Strike?) them rather than Infiltrate. You'd almost never have opportunity to hunt down enemy heavy weapons.

...speechless....

If you are still taking Wraith and a DLord, they'll be the biggest threat regardless and will draw fire. Your Flayed Ones are eating up at least 14% of your army in points at 1850 and they truly aren't that scary or threatening. Wraith can get expensive fast, and you already are taking Imotekh and a Destroyer Lord. How many scoring units are you taking? It sounds like it'll be easy to prevent you from being able to claim any objective, meaning I just need to worry about secondary objectives and trying to capture one primary.

Ah, I see, so now after assuming this entire time that they will have been shot at before reaching CC....suddenly you switched gears and now you are not shooting at them anymore? And are you sure the Wraiths are the bigger threat? What if the Wraiths were outside of their assault range but the Flayed Ones weren't, whose the bigger threat then?

Also, I have almost twice the scoring bodies as the average Necron list. Scoring is the least of my worries.

If its one the opponent was originally counting on its probably being sat on by something you'll have to dislodge, and Flayed Ones aren't that good and doing so. The Wraith and DLord however...

By what? I keep hearing this is a "shooty edition". Outside of your Grey Hunters, which is a legitimate concern, what is the average unit you expect to encounter guarding an objective in the opponents DZ? Think long and hard before you answer this one.

Also, even if the Flayed Ones "aren't good at dislodging it," no matter how rare that is, they are better at staying there. Wraiths/Dlord clear it out, Flayed Ones setup camp.

Do you really Deep Strike them? That's hysterical if you do, they must mishap often in a large unit. If not, then no. They're just Infiltrators. All Infiltrators get to Outflank or Infiltrate. So dealing with them is not substantially different from any other unit with Infiltrate. Except when they Outflank they can't shoot at me.

Did you miss the point where they have a pinpoint deepstrike mechanic? Also, deep striking and avoiding mishap is chlids play for veterans. Only the inexperienced say such silly things.

Hint: When dealing with Outflankers, it helps to not place Objectives near the board edge. If the enemy places his objective near a board edge for outflanking, more power to him. I'd vote on sacrificing that Objective and focusing on the others. Minimizing the effect of a unit can be more efficient than trying to shoot it. Particularly when they are slow and have a small threat radius.

Hint: In a lot of tournaments, you don't have a choice. Hint: If they centrally locate their objectives, they will tend to castle around them, leaving more real estate open for infiltrate/deep strike. Hint: If I can include you giving up on an objective in your DZ into my victory conditions, I'm going to win a lot more games then I'm going to lose.

Hysterical. To say nothing of how easy it is to have a Deep Strike mishap with such a large unit normally, or to spread out a unit with an average Run distance of 3", but how pray tell do you manage to spread out enough to dodge template/blast weapons when you have to land within 6" of an enemy unit to not scatter?

Outside of drop pods, you obviously have little experience with deep striking. A 2" run is plenty to spread out in all directions against Templates/Blasts. Why do you think being 6" away from the enemy will prevent me from spreading out? I guess if its like the perfect piece or real estate surrounded by enemies. In which case....WOOOHOO!

And do you Outflank against those armies where this would be a suicidally bad idea or do you Infiltrate? I'm curious, given your comments regarding both those options previously.

A.) Deep Striking is only a "suicidal bad idea" when you choose to make it one, in which case its a risk/reward scenario where the reward itself makes it not a bad idea. Every single board (except maybe against orcs or nids) has tons of real estate that can safely be exploited by Deep Strike.
B.) I'm not trying to evade, but it really depends. Try it yourself, please. Every game you play over the next couple weeks, ask yourself what you would do if you have a unit that could DS/Infiltrate our Outflank. It just completely depends on the what I'm seeing in front of me.

Odd, I see IoV often enough (usually in just 1 unit) and you definitely see VOTLW a lot for Ld 9.

I see VOTLW a lot, but almost never IoV.

I'd love to see these numerous competitive lists you allege exist without Wolf Guard. The exact opposite is true. Either they are like Frankie's list where its all Wolf Guard, or they're hoofing it with 11 models in a Grey Hunter pack, or they're Drop Podding in with Wolf Guard to make sure they don't break and have two special weapons since they aren't a full 10 man squad. SW lists with 10 man Grey Hunters squads are around, but it happens a lot less in 6E than in 5E.

You play them a lot more then I do, so I'll concede to point. I was just reading a battle report by one of the ETC players in the UK and he played back to back games against GH they didn't have a WG in every squad, only about half, and these were top tier games. But that is an extremely limited sample pool.

And if you do that, something other than Grey Hunters are going to be part of the fray as well.

Maybe. I don't like playing games on the forums.

And I argue that your analysis of the unit and tactics available to you is flawed or just blind.

Yeah, absolutely man. My understanding of how RPP works, and all those games that Flayed Ones played a crucial role in victory...just didn't really happen. Obviously the guys who has never used the unit before knows more about it than I do. Totally.

Do the math on an atypical scenario of Bolters firing at Flayed Ones vs Wraith. The numbers clearly show that once you factor in Reanimation Protocol, both units are just as resilient on a per-wound basis. You say that the Flayed Ones are more resilient to the shooting prior to Going To Ground, despite the number of unsaved wounds caused by end of phase being identical to both units. That's clearly wrong.

You keep saying that per wound is relevant at all. It's not. Otherwise Carnifexes would still be good.

Do the math again with lower AP weapons and the Wraith edge out over the Flayed Ones.

No they don't because despite your insistence to the contrary, cover actually exists in this game. Also, many low AP weapons are also S8+. Do we need to go back into why that is relevant?

You say Going To Ground of course solves this. Fair enough, it can. Going To Ground can totally improve the Save vs Shooting for the unit. Provided the entire unit, every model, is in Area Terrain. Provided you aren't taking Barrage fire. Or being shot by a Template weapon. Or the weapon otherwise Ignores Cover. You outright ignore that there are numerous ways, even common ways, of getting around your Cover Save and that with people taking an ADL all the time these things are becoming more and more popular in the global meta.

I'm not ignoring anything. I'm correctly identifying that more often the not, cover matters. Yes, sometimes cover doesn't matter. Most times it does. If we are going to compare the units in a vacuum, should we compare the "most time" or the "some time" scenario?

In truth, we should compare both. Wraiths don't give a crap about cover save ignoring mechanics. They do care about S8+ though. Flayed Ones, on the other hand, always have at least RP, if not a 4+ and RP, against cover save ignoring mechanics. Whenever they have their 4+ and RP, they are still superior RPP then Wraiths.

So, here's how the resiliency matrix breaks down.

AP 4 and better (lower), S7 and worse, cover save ignoring weapons favor the Wraiths.

Every other weapon in the entire game favors the Flayed Ones. Please. Please tell me you get this point. If you don't get it this time, its simply because you are being intentionally obtuse.

Do the math against various units you may end up in close combat with. Statistically against most enemies they'll only go into the fight with 15-16 models out of the original 20.

Oh, so we are back to shooting the Flayed Ones now? Cool. Or are you saying "most enemies" will kill 4 or 5 Flayed Ones before they strike? Because that's comically inaccurate.

In a vacuum, the Flayed Ones tend to lose the fight the first round and they win some/lose some in the second depending on what they are fighting. Somehow this makes them excellent in close combat, despite clearly needing to be lead by an expensive HQ.

....You did three scenarios, all of which are decent CC units, and the Flayed Ones crushed 2 out of 3, despite your constant goal post moving. What you have not considered is Fire Warriors, Necron Warriors, Tactical Marines, Immortals, Havocs, Long Fangs, Devastators, Kroot, any Eldar unit, any Dark Eldar unit (almost), etc, etc, etc.

Lets just say your sample pool, where the Flayed Ones did quite well in 2 out of the 3 fights, was a little unrepresentative of the meta at large. K?

(My apologies here if I'm confusing you with someone else, the thread is starting to blur between our back and forth!) Someone points out the drawbacks of a melee only unit Outflanking, they're told not to. Point out the flaws of Infiltrating, they're told not to. Point out the flaws of Deep Striking, and they are alternatively told not to and told to do it all the time. The draw backs (of which there are a few) of Deep Striking within 6" of the enemy are ignored.

Every tactic has draw backs, but it also has advantages. I think you are referring to Jancorans post though?

Point out that Template weapons will really hurt Flayed Ones, and you get told to spread them out. The fact that will either be next to impossible to do on the turn they arrive from Deep Strike/Outflanking is ignored. The fact that its very difficult to do if you want to stay in Area Terrain is ignored.

Its not ignored at all. I've told you a hundred times run by itself greatly mitigates against templates. Being slowed by Area Terrain isn't that big of a deal when you arrive right where you want to be in the first place (or a turn's worth of movement away). It's just not that big of a deal. I know this from experience. You are making it a big deal from lack of experience. You envision it being a big deal, when the actual mechanics and mission and all other real world factors means makes it not a big deal.

It's a deal. Its the same risk you take when you plop a shooty unit in area terrain. When a CC unit comes near, you have slowed your retreat. That doesn't stop people from doing it, because the reward (cover saves) is greater then the risk (slowness).

I can keep going on. Someone brings up a problem, and you tell them its not a problem because of X. Meanwhile, doing X causes Y to become a problem. This gets pointed out and you say to do Z. Meanwhile, Z causes X to be a problem. And the cycle continues. You seem to be trying to have your cake and eat it too.

There is so much irony in this statement I think you just killed my dog.

Most people have written off Flayed Ones because they don't contribute much for their point cost and the only way they are remotely viable is with Imotekh, which not all Necron lists take. Given more and more people are willing to spend money on Forge World, how common it is to find stuff cheaply on EBay, and how you could convert the cheaper Necron Warriors, I somehow doubt its the pricetag stopping people.

That's not true at all. I know the vast majority of players haven't played with them at all. Its obvious because they say incredibly inacurate things about them, like you have so studiously demonstrated. They judged them on paper, and that was it. And the expensive unpopular models play a massive role in this. You know that's true, I don't know why you are pretending otherwise.

I'm glad they are working for you. I think its completely silly you are spending 260 points on a unit that pretty much can only contest a single objective, to say nothing of some of the other hidden costs associated with taking them (and I'm not just talking the points in the HQ FOC slot(s)). Against the armies I play as and several I play against, its going to be a little lackluster. For reasons given ad nausem now.

Easy to say when you're not actually playing me. I think I would table your Drop list in 3 turns, as is usually the case.