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muwhe wrote:
@Breng77 - I am ok with IG being dominate at any given point in time as I am with any other codex. Such is the case with the game system. The alternative is TO or Community Comp a path that was well traveled once upon a time.

@Eyjio - My point was that Forgeworld units are used at Offical Warhammer World events. Last I checked Games Workshop does not really have a competitive tourney format? or am I mistaken? As for updates .. sure in some cases it took years. Which in my mind is better than never or not until we release a new codex. Some happen much quicker in the case of feedback to experimental rules they post. My point is they still have a business model that allows it and they do it. As for IA2v2. It makes zero sense for Forgeworld to update that book given the pending release of Codex: Space Marine. I would rather wait for an update to IA2v2 that accounts for the new codex then get an immediate update that is made obsolete in 6 months.

@JWhex - So back on topic .. I think we need FW in some events and I think we need some events without FW. : )

Throne of Skulls is a bit rubbish but interstore tournaments tend to be all out affairs where the only issue with competitiveness is the small player bases. I don't disagree with you (and my area uses FW in almost everything) but I don't think something which doesn't release FAQs quickly is fit for purpose - I had this issue with GW before but they seem to have picked up a lot of slack there. For IA:Apoc 2nd ed it's mostly Orks that have the issue and they really should have FAQ'd it a long time ago anyway. They've already done for for the Heresy book and IA2 2nd ed though, so that's something.

I'm voting with my feet - I won't be going to any open FW tournaments. Maybe restricted to 1 choice, but if they can fill their lists I won't be there.

So everyone wants FW just for the fluff - not what I see at tournaments. It's an excuse for mass spamming of hyperios/sabre defence platforms and the like. Cherry picking the best units from the books. Well, everyone can do that from their codex can't they like Wraiths, helldrakes, tervigons ... well the argument doesn't run through here as FW is massively tilted in the favour of IG/SM armies. So while FW opens up a great window of opportunity to them, what does it offer say Nids, Dark Eldar, Orks etc. Essentially very little.

Now with a new codex Eldar, Tau etc become competitve again - what about FW though? Is there going to be an even spread of upgrades for all armies or is it going to be 90% imperial again for the next year or two? I think we know the answer already to that one.

The main game is not balanced, but it's not totally broken. It's almost impossible to have the flavour of the different races and get balance, but at least everyone gets an even range of unit choices - certainly more so now with new releases. In FW IG have about 30 new units (proably more I don't have all the books by any stretch), Nids about 3. Imagine a game of american football where one side can take 22 players and the other 52 - ok you can only have 11 on the field at once but the ability to specialise makes the team with the larger squad odds on favourites. That's the FW game.

Vaktathi said: "if we're assuming enough artillery platforms and support to both have 9 thudd guns, an aegis line, a CCS and LC for babysitting support, and say 3 units of TLLC sabres, how many points are left for troops?"

Blackmoor already posted the list. I'm assuming you missed it? ...

I'll happily play against FW in a casual setting, since chances are it'll be for fluff/coolness. I'd never attend a tournament that allowed forgeworld though. Getting your ass handed to you by an army full of special rules that you've never heard of wouldn't be very fun.

I actually like the idea of running 2 concurrent tournaments.

This solves 2 problems.
#1. The people who don’t like forge world don’t have to deal with it.
#2. The people who like forge world get to play with it.
#3. It has the added benefit of cutting down the number of rounds to find the winner. Major GTs are 7+ game grinds and you can now find a true winner with less rounds.

 hippesthippo wrote:
Vaktathi said: "if we're assuming enough artillery platforms and support to both have 9 thudd guns, an aegis line, a CCS and LC for babysitting support, and say 3 units of TLLC sabres, how many points are left for troops?"

Blackmoor already posted the list. I'm assuming you missed it? ...

He said he put Blackmoor on ignore which means he can't see the list he posted already which conveniently answers his questions while simultaneously disproving his argument.

These games aren't played in a vacuum and yet several of the people arguing against those lists being OP are acting as if they do. Not the best way to analyze games and lists, this is why I try to steer clear of the list discussion section, too many opinions from people who only think inside the vacuum.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Blackmoor wrote:
I actually like the idea of running 2 concurrent tournaments.

This solves 2 problems.
#1. The people who don’t like forge world don’t have to deal with it.
#2. The people who like forge world get to play with it.
#3. It has the added benefit of cutting down the number of rounds to find the winner. Major GTs are 7+ game grinds and you can now find a true winner with less rounds.

I agree this sounds much better. One of the reasons I am so excited to play in Reece's Anime Expo tournament in July is because it is capped at 32(34?) players so it will only be 5 rounds. I loved WarGamesCon last year and the BAO but 7 games is a lot of 40k especially if you aren't doing so well like me at last years WGC!

Again 2 concurrent events works well if you have a huge event, and not so well when you don't

 Vaktathi wrote:
Ultimately, I'd have to ask, if these are so unstoppable and make for such one-sided unwinnable games, and FW does so little for anyone else, why haven't IG artillery lists simply overrun and consistently dominated at FW allowed events?

How many major tournaments have we had that allowed FW so far?

A heavy artillery IG army was undefeated when going into the second to last round of the Bay Area Open but was beat by another IG army with FW when this game only went 3 rounds, otherwise it would have won. The winning IG army then advanced played a tzeentch demon army and lost because the demon player had insanely good rolls. If that demon army gets blown off the table by the forge world units like it should have it would have changed the whole FW narrative.

The Broadside Bash was won by the heavy artillery army above (He must have gotten all of his turns in).

The cost is also a barrier to entry. That IG army had $800.00 worth of Forge World in it.

 Blackmoor wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Ultimately, I'd have to ask, if these are so unstoppable and make for such one-sided unwinnable games, and FW does so little for anyone else, why haven't IG artillery lists simply overrun and consistently dominated at FW allowed events?

How many major tournaments have we had that allowed FW so far?

A heavy artillery IG army was undefeated when going into the second to last round of the Bay Area Open but was beat by another IG army with FW when this game only went 3 rounds, otherwise it would have won. The winning IG army then advanced played a tzeentch demon army and lost because the demon player had insanely good rolls. If that demon army gets blown off the table by the forge world units like it should have it would have changed the whole FW narrative.

The Broadside Bash was won by the heavy artillery army above (He must have gotten all of his turns in).

The cost is also a barrier to entry. That IG army had $800.00 worth of Forge World in it.

What's sad is that it's true.

I will be curious to see how WGC turns out this year. I suspect that IG will place very highly and you will see a depressed Tau presence on the top tables mainly because of Arty IG. Its a strong counter to Tau (and just about everything else).

 hippesthippo wrote:
Vaktathi said: "if we're assuming enough artillery platforms and support to both have 9 thudd guns, an aegis line, a CCS and LC for babysitting support, and say 3 units of TLLC sabres, how many points are left for troops?"

Blackmoor already posted the list. I'm assuming you missed it? ...

this one without any Thudd Guns? If there was another I will admit that I have in fact missed it, but this one has some issue (and notably lacks the aforementioned and bemoaned thudd guns)

1850 points
CCS
LC
2 Blob squads
Vets in Chimera
3 Lascannon sabers
3 Lascannon sabers
Vulture Gunship
Vendetta
2 Earthshaker batteries
2 Medusa batteries
ADL

2 Rune Priests
8 Grey Hunters w/Drop pod

Assuming the 2 blob squads are 2 units of 20 each, and from a single platoon (the smallest possible there for the list to work), we're looking at 1827pts if I'm doing my math right (and assuming the vulture is being taken with the TL Punisher cannon), and that's with zero upgrades/weapons/banners/blob commissars/etc on the Grey Hunters, Platoon and Company command squads, blob squads and Veteran squads.

Do I need to go into details about the issues with tons of squishy naked infantry (and squishy command units), total lack of appropriate weaponry for short range work and the like?

 BryllCream wrote:
I'll happily play against FW in a casual setting, since chances are it'll be for fluff/coolness. I'd never attend a tournament that allowed forgeworld though. Getting your ass handed to you by an army full of special rules that you've never heard of wouldn't be very fun.

And this is different from a new codex/White Dwarf units how?

OverwatchCNC wrote:

He said he put Blackmoor on ignore which means he can't see the list he posted already which conveniently answers his questions while simultaneously disproving his argument.

I only put him on ignore after he responded to a post not directed at him with a juvenile "that's stupid and you know nothing" post, that didn't bother to argue/counter/discuss anything I actually posted.

That's the list, yes. I don't want to say anything that might come off as mean, so I'll end it there.

 Vaktathi wrote:
this one without any Thudd Guns? If there was another I will admit that I have in fact missed it, but this one has some issue (and notably lacks the aforementioned and bemoaned thudd guns)

1850 points
CCS
LC
2 Blob squads
Vets in Chimera
3 Lascannon sabers
3 Lascannon sabers
Vulture Gunship
Vendetta
2 Earthshaker batteries
2 Medusa batteries
ADL

2 Rune Priests
8 Grey Hunters w/Drop pod

Assuming the 2 blob squads are 2 units of 20 each, and from a single platoon (the smallest possible there for the list to work), we're looking at 1827pts if I'm doing my math right (and assuming the vulture is being taken with the TL Punisher cannon), and that's with zero upgrades/weapons/banners/blob commissars/etc on the Grey Hunters, Platoon and Company command squads, blob squads and Veteran squads.

Do I need to go into details about the issues with tons of squishy naked infantry (and squishy command units), total lack of appropriate weaponry for short range work and the like?

That is the list that I faced at the Broadside Bash. It might have been a 2000 point tournament, or I might have some of the smaller units mixed up.

No one knew about the thudd guns until Adepticon which was after the Bash. It really does not matter what part of the FW artillery that you take, they are all good and interchangable. Just drop a heavy artillery platform and replace it with them and you have the same thing.

 hippesthippo wrote:
That's the list, yes. I don't want to say anything that might come off as mean, so I'll end it there.

If you have a legitimate point to make I promise I won't be too butthurt about it. I feel there are issues with that list.

It's got a good amount of long range firepower for sure, but is reliant largely on one 6 model T3 5+sv unit hiding behind and aegis line to stay in the game, is heavily reliant on one of the flyers for "oh gak something got close" support, and primarily reliant on T3 5+sv Ld7/8 infantry sporting nothing but lasguns that must leave that Ld/Command bubble for objective nabbing and a single squad or MEQ infantry, and the list only has 23pts to play with to remedy those issues.

I'm not saying it's an easy list that nobody will have any problems defeating, but there are very definitely exploitable weaknesses that many common tournament armies should be able to take advantage of and emerge victorious with as much reasonable chance of victory as most other lists they may be facing.

 Blackmoor wrote:
I actually like the idea of running 2 concurrent tournaments.

This solves 2 problems.
#1. The people who don’t like forge world don’t have to deal with it.
#2. The people who like forge world get to play with it.
#3. It has the added benefit of cutting down the number of rounds to find the winner. Major GTs are 7+ game grinds and you can now find a true winner with less rounds.

Have you ever run a big event? That would be a big pain in the donkey and the two could potentially detract in the overall draw from each other. It solves nothing.

Anyways you should wear a big sign at WGC that sez "I'm Blackmoor the dude that hates Forge World!!!".

 Dozer Blades wrote:

Anyways you should wear a big sign at WGC that sez "I'm Blackmoor the dude that hates Forge World!!!".

That might not bode well.

 Vaktathi wrote:
And this is different from a new codex/White Dwarf units how?

I will browse through a codex, and it will be discussed online - I'll have a fair idea of what i'm playing against. I don't know anything about any forgeworld, as do most 40k gamers. Why should we have to face an army we know literally nothing about when in all likelihood they'll know our codex off by heart. They'll know what strategy we're going for and what the weak point in our list is. We will have no such luxury against FW armies, even if you could browse the rules that doesn't really tell you how the army plays.

With the quick rate at which the new codices are being released I highly doubt that most players are highly familiar wih all of the new units.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
With the quick rate at which the new codices are being released I highly doubt that most players are highly familiar wih all of the new units.

There are still far better and more numerous resources online for info on new, and old, codices than for FW rules units etc.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
With the quick rate at which the new codices are being released I highly doubt that most players are highly familiar wih all of the new units.

No doubt. I was flipping through the Tau codex again last night and still picking up on units and upgrades I hadn't realized before.

 Dozer Blades wrote:

 Blackmoor wrote:
I actually like the idea of running 2 concurrent tournaments.

This solves 2 problems.
#1. The people who don’t like forge world don’t have to deal with it.
#2. The people who like forge world get to play with it.
#3. It has the added benefit of cutting down the number of rounds to find the winner. Major GTs are 7+ game grinds and you can now find a true winner with less rounds.

Have you ever run a big event? That would be a big pain in the donkey and the two could potentially detract in the overall draw from each other. It solves nothing.

Anyways you should wear a big sign at WGC that sez "I'm Blackmoor the dude that hates Forge World!!!".

#1. I canceled my plane tickets to WGC because they are allowing forge world.
#2. Most people at tournaments know me and my stance on forge world.

 OverwatchCNC wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
With the quick rate at which the new codices are being released I highly doubt that most players are highly familiar wih all of the new units.

There are still far better and more numerous resources online for info on new, and old, codices than for FW rules units etc.

Oh Rly ?? FW has many of their rules for units available online for free.

Not really, Dozer. Just the experimental ones and outdated army lists. Check the downloads page in my signature for examples.

They have rules for the Storm Eagles, Contemptor dreadnaughts, etc... not just outdated or experimental.

Show me the contemptor rules, please.

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/c/Contemptor.pdf

Here is an example of how FW destabilizes the game in a take-all-comers environment.

What saber platforms get to do is add not only a very hard to kill weapons platform, but anti-tank and all in a troop slot, but where is it really bad is the interceptor rule.

Most armies rely on fliers as their only anti-flyer defense. So what happens is that the saber defense platforms shoot down any flyers that their opponents have before they can even shoot with interceptor, and then the IG’s Vultures just fly around uncontested and destroy their opponent with 20 strength 5 shots.

So those rules stamped with the experimental stamp...

Experimental rules, outdated, and incomplete.

It is up to date. And is from the Forge World website. Dude don't lie to make your point. * Sad face *