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Eyjio wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

Eyjio wrote:

 Enigwolf wrote:

FW is an "add-on" in as much as WD SoB is an "add-on", or any other Codex for that matter. FW is officially part of the game system as much as Codices are. An "add-on" would be Apocalypse, which fundamentally changes how the game is played.

This is simply untrue. SoB is published and printed directly by Games Workshop LTD, a subsidiary owned by Games Workshop Group PLC. Forge World is another subsidiary of Games Workshop Group PLC but otherwise unrelated to Games Workshop LTD - they have a different work force, different stores, different warehouses and produce different products. Forge World are licensed to be able to produce items for GW LTD trademarks and use their copyrights. That does not and will never make them "the same". They do not even use the same printing - Forge World books are printed in England, GWs in China. Forge World's self proclaimed officiousness is about as valid as Transformers saying they're valid for use in MTG because both are subsidiaries of Hasbro. It's marketed as "an expansion" because they are not allowed by the main company to produce additional models for the GW subsidiary and claim them to be normally usable units for any game. Please stop spreading this because it is wrong.

Forgeworld is not a subsidiary at all actually, they're just another department at GW no different than IT or Accounting. They aren't a distinct organization, they're not even a licensed reseller, they're GW through and through.

Again, that's not true. GW LTD has nothing to do with Forge World. They do not link them on their website and they do not own them. GW PLC owns FW. Again, they do not share a workforce, nor offices, nor production. This is why not even GW's own stores can order FW to them - it is not the same company and the profits do not go to GW LTD.

One will note their website does state "Copyright © Games Workshop Limited 2000-2013."

Eyjio wrote:

 Enigwolf wrote:

I'm laughing at the concept that you're even using the GW company organizational structure to prove your point. So you're saying that if a video game company releases a game, and hands all the post-launch patch work off to another subsidiary (in this case, another studio, which frequently happens) to take care of, all post-launch patches are to be considered "unofficial expansions"? Come on. I listed half a dozen business reasons five or six pages ago as to why Forge World is a subsidiary company contributing to the same game system - did you even read the thread, or just the first and last page?

You're laughing because you're wrong? It's not in any way like that analogy. It's most like if EA Sports made a new Madden, then Bioware released paid DLC that added more stuff into the game but was arguably poorly done. They're both owned by EA, sure, but that DLC is not part of the main game and so most players would have neither heard of it nor downloaded it. Just because one company says it's "official" doesn't make it so.

I'm laughing at the extent you're reaching to to prove your point when it's already clearly stated that FW IA books are officially part of the game system and meant to be used as such. And I wasn't referring to DLC, I was referring to patches. Large game development companies hand off post-launch patching and balancing to another team/studio to handle because the original design studio has to move on to develop another game, otherwise their talents are wasted in maintenance. Does that mean these patches are unofficial expansions? No.

Krellnus wrote:Also an expansion is anything that expands the base game hence Codices = expansion.

Exactly. We should all just play with our Dark Vengeance sets if we don't want expansions, right?

Nope, no codices = no units = no game at all, I also cited where stats for these units are listed in the brb, and the codices themselves are mentioned there as reference.

And more double standards showing...

 Enigwolf wrote:

Eyjio wrote:

 Enigwolf wrote:

I'm laughing at the concept that you're even using the GW company organizational structure to prove your point. So you're saying that if a video game company releases a game, and hands all the post-launch patch work off to another subsidiary (in this case, another studio, which frequently happens) to take care of, all post-launch patches are to be considered "unofficial expansions"? Come on. I listed half a dozen business reasons five or six pages ago as to why Forge World is a subsidiary company contributing to the same game system - did you even read the thread, or just the first and last page?

You're laughing because you're wrong? It's not in any way like that analogy. It's most like if EA Sports made a new Madden, then Bioware released paid DLC that added more stuff into the game but was arguably poorly done. They're both owned by EA, sure, but that DLC is not part of the main game and so most players would have neither heard of it nor downloaded it. Just because one company says it's "official" doesn't make it so.

I'm laughing at the extent you're reaching to to prove your point when it's already clearly stated that FW IA books are officially part of the game system and meant to be used as such. And I wasn't referring to DLC, I was referring to patches. Large game development companies hand off post-launch patching and balancing to another team/studio to handle because the original design studio has to move on to develop another game, otherwise their talents are wasted in maintenance. Does that mean these patches are unofficial expansions? No.

Krellnus wrote:Also an expansion is anything that expands the base game hence Codices = expansion.

Exactly. We should all just play with our Dark Vengeance sets if we don't want expansions, right?

It's not the same as a patch though - FAQs are like a patch, they add almost nothing and fix core issues. DLC adds new things, which although can be done freely in a patch is not the same. Large game companies do not hand off patch work to entirely different companies unless there is literally no choice, they are handed to small parts of the original team because those are the people who worked with the code originally, so don't have to relearn the entire thing. Again, FW saying FW is legal says nothing. GW has never done so and refuses to do so in its own tournaments, despite knowing this inhibits FW sales at Warhammer World. This isn't a hard concept.

One will note their website does state "Copyright © Games Workshop Limited 2000-2013."

GW LTD owns all of the trademarks and copyrights. They also own Black Library's copyrights. That means almost nothing - they are still separate and operate as such.

Breng77 wrote:
Nope, no codices = no units = no game at all, I also cited where stats for these units are listed in the brb, and the codices themselves are mentioned there as reference.

Pray tell, where in the rules does it instruct me to use codices if they are part of the main game?

 Krellnus wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
Nope, no codices = no units = no game at all, I also cited where stats for these units are listed in the brb, and the codices themselves are mentioned there as reference.

Pray tell, where in the rules does it instruct me to use codices if they are part of the main game?

p108, main rulebook.

Ok show me FW in the brb?

When you do I'll eat the double standard.

Stating that FW is not in any way an expansion of the base game, is naive. I already said that does not make it unofficial, but it also does not put it Jon the same level as a codex. Look at it this way in almost every case I need a codex to use my FW book. The opposite is not true. Therefore FW is an expansion to my codex with additional units. It is frequently also an expansion to the game with additional scenarios and rules. No different than say skies of death.

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Home/Frequently_Asked_Questions.html

Q1. Is Forge World part of Games Workshop?

A1. Yes, but we operate as a small (but perfectly formed) separate division from the company that makes and sells the main Games Workshop range of products.

Eyjio wrote:
They do not link them on their website and they do not own them.

Not true at all. There's a link on the website, and their daily blog frequently shows FW models (including links to buy them) and announces new FW releases. They may keep it off the front page so an uninformed parent doesn't buy their 12 year old a Thunderhawk for christmas, but it's not exactly hard to find if you're the kind of customer would would want to buy FW stuff.

And I notice you keep ignoring the fact that if GW didn't agree with FW's "this is official and part of 40k" statements then they would remove it from the books. The same GW that sues random authors over using "space marine" is not going to permit an unauthorized statement of "this is official" to appear in book after book. Conclusion: GW approves 100% of the "officialness" statements found in books sold under their FW brand name.

Breng77 wrote:
Ok show me FW in the brb?

Why? The "it must be found in the BRB" is a rule invented by players. GW has never said "we list all legal rule sources in the BRB", and have no problem publishing expansions/WD articles/etc that contain official rules with a note saying "this is now part of the game".

Eyjio wrote:
GW has never done so and refuses to do so in its own tournaments, despite knowing this inhibits FW sales at Warhammer World.

GW also bans allies in their own tournaments, but I don't see anyone demanding a "no allies" rule just to follow what warhammer world does.

 Krellnus wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
Nope, no codices = no units = no game at all, I also cited where stats for these units are listed in the brb, and the codices themselves are mentioned there as reference.

Pray tell, where in the rules does it instruct me to use codices if they are part of the main game?

P.v of the introduction, pp. 3,32,44,66,108,142

@peregrin, did I say it was not official, in fact I believe I said it was official in my expansion post, I only said not part of the base game, I.e. it is an expansion of the rules, so stating FW is the same as a codex is false, when I can use my codex without the expansion and not the other way around. So the argument that it should be treated no differently is to me naive. The quote of show it to me in the brb, was a statement about it not being part of the base game. If someone knowing nothing of the game picked up the rules they would be referred to buying a codex, which if they went to the Gw website, or a lgs, they would find. What they would not find is info on FW, until they were into the hobby a decent bit more. Again this does not make it unofficial, but a new player would be much less comfortable if I through 5 books at him and said, well the rules for my army are in these 5 books.

'Just because one company says it's "official" doesn't make it so.'

Except that Forge World is owned and operated by Games Workshop. The resin pieces that have the bits attached are even stamped Games Workshop.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 kronk wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
It is up to date. And is from the Forge World website. Dude don't lie to make your point. * Sad face *

1. I'm not lying. Watch your mouth (er, fingers).
2. That is not up to date. The contemptor was updated in both the HH book, the Aeronautica book (mortis pattern), and IA: Apocalypse II, second edition (which is no longer on the FW site).
3. It's incomplete.

What point are you trying to make posting out-dated, experimental, incomplete pdfs?

Edit: I'm not trying to pick on you, Dozer. But the only thing that FW puts up on their download pages now are the experimental rules, which can change when they go into print.

Yes, you can still get an idea of what a unit does that way, but not every unit get that. Not even 1 in 5.

You are right and I apologize for posting misleading information. Sorry!

It looks like the Codex: Iyanden supplement will contain new rules approved for games of Warhammer 40,000. It's too bad they probably won't be legal in tournaments.

I mean, it isn't an official GW codex, it's the first supplemental codex. And supplemental codices currently favor Eldar armies over other armies, right?

Again apparently you miss the point entirely, if eldar get 5 supplement codices, with a good number of op units and everyone else gets 1 then yes I think people will have an issue with these books. As this is not the case yet and we on't even know what is in the book....

Well, at the very least, it helps eliminate a lot of arguments that I thought were smokescreens for the real problem, "I think some units in Forgeworld are too good and I don't want to play against them."

- Forgeworld books are expensive
- Forgeworld books require too many additional books to know the rules for every unit
- Forgeworld books are not readily available in stores
- Forgeworld books are not an official codex
- Forgeworld books have more rules for certain armies than others

Again not really, the price point issue on a single book for single book has been a non issue since 6th Ed codices released. The price issue is more of an issue with owning multiple books, which is still an issue (as there are what 13 or so FW IA books) vs 1 eldar supplement, which may or may not have new units in it. If it is just a reorg of units and a few special rules it is not as big a deal. The availability issue started to go away with the flyer book. That said it is still easier to get legally than fw (assuming no production run issues) simply due to shipping time from fw.

The not official codex is not an issue Fw is not a codex at all it is a supplement or expansion. The argument of legality had nothing to do with it being a codex and everything to do with the gw-fw relationship.

As for the more rules I already addressed that fw still is far worse in this case especially dive we don't even know if there are additional units I this book.

 Dracos wrote:
For those who say that FW events have less variation, my experience is the exact opposite. Its easy to see why this would be: more options mean your army both has more possibilities and has to account for more possibilities across the table. In fact, the abundance of diverse armies seems to imply that FW is really not as bad as the picture some detractors would like to paint.

Lets see, there have been 3 big events since FW was really starting to be accepted in certain areas. BAO, Broadside Bash, and Adepticon TT. Do yourself a favor and look up the top armies from those events. (hint: it has already been posted on this thread.)

..

Ok, so you looked it up? Now imagine what it will be like once everyone else has finished buying/painting their IG armies, bc it has only just started.

Breng77 wrote:
(as there are what 13 or so FW IA books)

Depends on the army. For my Tau I just need the codex and IA3. And when the codex costs $50 and Riptides are $80 each spending another $80-90 on IA3 isn't a big deal.

 hippesthippo wrote:
Now imagine what it will be like once everyone else has finished buying/painting their IG armies, bc it has only just started.

Now imagine what it will be like once the metagame shifts to counter the IG lists. That's the problem with all this speculation, you can reasonably guess one step ahead but you can't tell what the counters to the counters will be. That's why companies who make true competitive games (MTG, for example) only make changes/bans after analyzing a solid record of high-level results that include enough time for the metagame to attempt to counter the problem.

This is also for some reason assuming that IG artillery platforms are the only thing people suddenly find attractive and not Tetras, Hazard suits, Hornets, Warp Hunters, Tessaract Arks, etc and the like.


And again,even assuming a drastic swing towards one army or another, how is that different than a new codex book? And since when is maintaining the integrity of the "meta", which shifts so hard so often, the responsibility of an event/organizers?

Fundamentally tournaments are an artificial play format for Warhammer 40,000, that the game was never written for, but is all too mistaken as the arbiter of how the game should be played, and its attitudes towards Forgeworld spread out to pickup games and more casual games, like it or not. This is starting to change thankfully, but it has been a slow, laborious process. At their core, tournaments are supposed to be about bringing your plastic/metal army men and playing with other people in a large environment.

Doesn't this discussion has the same results every time?

Pro-Forgeworld for the "hobbiest" wants it.
Pro-Forgeworld for the "competitive" wants it if it works with their army.

Anti-Forgeworld for the "competitive" complains it throws off balance in a game that has armies that are absurdly out of date and in no way balanced.
Anti-Forgeworld for the "uninformed" who are making incorrect statements because they don't have the info.

Pro-Forgeworld for the "moneywatcher" because some of their models are CHEAPER than GW's.
Anti-Forgeword for the "moneywatcher" because they don't want to buy all those books and don't even know what they should buy.

FW in tournaments to me is no different that a homebrew FAQ. It has its place and not every event should allow it. Both the major indy FAQs get stuff COMPLETELY wrong, as was shown with their last two events.

Sure, if you go to the hyper-competitive events you will see more of the tough stuff and at the hobbiest events more of the fluff stuff. Just go to the events you want and stop the drama.

 Oaka wrote:
It looks like the Codex: Iyanden supplement will contain new rules approved for games of Warhammer 40,000. It's too bad they probably won't be legal in tournaments.

I mean, it isn't an official GW codex, it's the first supplemental codex. And supplemental codices currently favor Eldar armies over other armies, right?

A supplimental codex is a codex.

An Imperial Armour book is not a codex.

Therefore there's more of a case to allow codex: Iyaenden than any Forgeworld.

Has any one brought up Sisters of Battle? Our only flyer is Forgeworld, and one of our few valid heavy support options, the closest thing we have to a Land Raider for mass girl power moving the Repressor is FW only too.

Honest opinion? Just go with it. Have fun. Broken lists suck but I don't think FW inclusion is any more or less likely to create broken lists.

 Vaktathi wrote:


Fundamentally tournaments are an artificial play format for Warhammer 40,000, that the game was never written for, but is all too mistaken as the arbiter of how the game should be played, and its attitudes towards Forgeworld spread out to pickup games and more casual games, like it or not.

And this thread is specifically tackling the issue of FW in tournaments, not friendly games. In friendly games most of us don't have a problem with a Wraithseer, or Plague Drone. On the other hand TFGs who spam the broken FW stuff in their local meta are just as responsible for the negative opinion of FW.

At their core, tournaments are supposed to be about bringing your plastic/metal army men and playing with other people in a largely fair and diverse competitive environment.

Fixed that.






Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vaktathi wrote:
There's a lot of stuff for IG yes, there's also a good amount of stuff for Tau, Orks, Eldar, and now Necrons are getting stuff as well. This is especially true in the Flyer/anti-flyer department. I know I've been seeing lots of Barracudas, Hornets, Tetras, Warp Hunter and Nightwings of late, I don't get why it'd only be IG stuff that would overrun events

And since when was controlling the direction of the metagame away from or towards certain armies an aim or responsibility of tournaments, as opposed to being large events where people take their toy soldiers and compete to see who can use their toys the best?

Because the IG stuff is far and away the best of the bunch and can be readily allied to nearly any army.

TOs already do this in mission design.

While I can understand the conceptual issue and can agree with it, GW's core design studio does the same thing (look at the new Eldar codex and all the monofilament/distort weapons), and it's not like the Contemptor with Kheres AC's is a huge balance issue being a 200 something point walker.

Therein lies the fundamental problem with FW. Simply making a beautiful model is not enough to see their product fly off the shelf. They know they have to have the rules to back it up with. Its gotta be better the codex units if their going sell units.

Breng77 wrote: If someone knowing nothing of the game picked up the rules they would be referred to buying a codex, which if they went to the Gw website, or a lgs, they would find. What they would not find is info on FW, until they were into the hobby a decent bit more.

BRB refers you to:
1) White Dwarf Daily. This refers you to FW.
2) GW website. This refers you to FW.
3) GW store. Most of them carry FW.

As a side note, Crusade of Fire talks about Boarding Marines, Contemptor Dreadnoughts, and in the Apocalypse Battle, Titans and a Greater Brass Scorpion. Strange, that's an official GW Design Studio book talking about FW models as if there isn't any problem using them in normal games.

Glocknall wrote: Its gotta be better the codex units if their going sell units.

You do realise that most codex units are better, points wise?

 Dozer Blades wrote:


You are right and I apologize for posting misleading information. Sorry!

No need for apologies, Dozer. I certainly wouldn't have called it misleading, nor am I upset. For the record, I'm PRO Forge World. My group uses the books, rules, and models in our campaign games. I'm also all for FW in tournaments IF the TO and majority of players in those tournaments want it. If they don't want it, then obviously they shouldn't bother, right? Unfortunately, if you're in the minority in your area (either pro- or anti-), then you'll have to talk to your TO about alternating FW friendly and non-FW tournaments. Best of luck to you, either way!

-Shrike- wrote:

Breng77 wrote: If someone knowing nothing of the game picked up the rules they would be referred to buying a codex, which if they went to the Gw website, or a lgs, they would find. What they would not find is info on FW, until they were into the hobby a decent bit more.

BRB refers you to:
1) White Dwarf Daily. This refers you to FW.
2) GW website. This refers you to FW.
3) GW store. Most of them carry FW.

As a side note, Crusade of Fire talks about Boarding Marines, Contemptor Dreadnoughts, and in the Apocalypse Battle, Titans and a Greater Brass Scorpion. Strange, that's an official GW Design Studio book talking about FW models as if there isn't any problem using them in normal games.

Glocknall wrote: Its gotta be better the codex units if their going sell units.

You do realise that most codex units are better, points wise?

1.) page number and is this in a section available with the mini rule book? If not then a beginner may never see it. And visiting we daily is getting further into the hobby.
2.) page number? And even then it refers you to FW where? That's right a tiny little link at the bottom of the page....so needing to look further into the hobby.
3.) no Gw store I've been to does, which is really not that many because there is maybe 1 within 2 hours of where I live.

And crusade of fire is not really standard 40k either... And hardly counts as normal games....I.e. if you include apoc as an example then Gw prime has had FW models in a book for a while now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
(as there are what 13 or so FW IA books)

Depends on the army. For my Tau I just need the codex and IA3. And when the codex costs $50 and Riptides are $80 each spending another $80-90 on IA3 isn't a big deal.
.

That is if you don't feel the need to study other books as top tournament players do then it ins about another $1000 as I buy all the books.

Talk about a conversation getting in the weeds. FW isn't necessary, at all, for fair competitive play. Adding FW 40k approved units will add a high concentration of powerful units to IG, while largely adding none to most other codices. Take that as you will.

Tournament Organizers are free to do as they please with regard to legalization. Most Tournament Organizers for the larger events present multiple opportunities; i.e., at AdeptiCon you can play FW in the Gladiator or Team Tournament or Friendly, but not in the Champs. At NOVA, y ou can play FW in the Narrative or Trios Tournament, but not in the GT or Invitational. Hooray, options! /fin

Breng77 wrote: And crusade of fire is not really standard 40k either... And hardly counts as normal games....I.e. if you include apoc as an example then Gw prime has had FW models in a book for a while now.

I'll be more specific. Leaving the apoc. example, the Boarding Marines are discussed as part of one player's army list, and this is for the normal games played as part of the campaign. They were playing standard 40k, and this player was using FW. In a GW published book.
1) and 2) I don't have the book ATM, so I can't give you page numbers, 3) I meant FW books; all the ones I've seen have carried at least a few of the books.

Anyway, there is no reason for you to buy all the IA books. A lot of top tournament players might study the codices, it doesn't mean they will buy them...

Many I know buy them all (less so now with the $50 books)and suggesting other methods is illegal so saying, well you should just steal to do it is not a good argument.

As for FW books the few times I have been to a GW I did not see them there. But again I don't have easy access to a GW store so that argument is invalid anyway. If the argument is that I should Travel 2 hours to pick up a book when I can drive 5 min to go get a codex, I think there is a slight difference. I don't have a crusade of fire book so I cannot speak to what "standard" games they were playing. Like I said I don't disbelieve that FW rules are intended for play in GW games. I said that they were not part of the "base" game, but rather a more "advanced version of the rules. Similar to how WOTC label some products as basic and some as advanced. I also stated that you need a codex to play an army you don't need FW. Which makes it an add on or expansion of the rules.

My FLGS and local GW store both allow me to use my Tamurkhan book for my Chaos Dwarf army in tournaments with no issues.