Do we still need forge world in tournament play?

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**RiTides**

muwhe wrote:
This was a comprehensive list as of AdeptiCon 2013 and is now a bit dated.

http://www.adepticon.org/13rules/201340KIAApoc.pdf

This list also has units that are strictly Apocalypse only.

Which is a fantastic document, thanks for posting it... and, of course, for organizing the event it is for, even if you didn't personally make this document!

However, it highlights the problems:

First 2 pages of units- IG
Next page - Various SM
2 units total - Necrons (Admittedly, I've faced one of them and it's really cool

. At AdeptiCon, no less! Huzzah for limited FW!)
3 units total - Dark Eldar
7 units total, at least 2 of which are Apocalypse Only - Tyranids

Given that Tyranids already are unable to ally, this makes their lack of selection compared to other armies even more drastic.

Not to mention, the minefield that is the column of where the rules are. That's an absolute clusterfeth... who honestly has all of those books? Yakface, I'm sure

. And what are the chances players will be using the most up to date ones, with how convoluted that is? Again, it's amazing that AdeptiCon makes this document, and imo a document like this is an absolute necessity for allowing FW in an event. Cheers to AdeptiCon for doing it!

**LValx**

Yeah, me personally, i've got no bias against FW. I don't think any of the units are THAT outrageous and i've played most of the supposed broken units (Contemptors, Sabres, Thudds, Heavy Artillery, Vultures).

But I think GW needs to show a little more support before it can be accepted in tournaments. That would entail offering equal choices to every codex. Streamlining it all into less books would also be helpful. As well as offering FW at more stores and in greater quantity.

**muwhe**

Any of the units listed as usable only in the Gladiator “GL” in that document are for Apocalypse only.

Having choices does not equal value. Standard 40k has a lot of choices, most of them we do not see at events.

**MVBrandt**

whembly wrote:

Hey Mike... as a TO, what's your opinion on allowing double-force organization in a tournament? If nothing else, I think it'll move folks off of this eternal FW debate.

I'd rather see something like 4 DarkAngel HQs or 4 Dark Eldar HQs on the table than the rare FW units. *shrugs* But, like I said earlier... if there's a "tough" list out there, even if's it's FW, I'd thumb my nose and say "Bring it brah!".

We allow the double FOC in two of our four events. I think if you play 2000+ points, per the rulebook, you should use two FOC. I think if you play 1999- points, per the rulebook, you should not. I think there's nothing wrong with choosing ANY points level as a TO (whether it be 500, 1500, 1850, 1999, 2001, 7324, or 42).

As for the tough list out there, the decisions about FW that most TO's make have nothing to do with players who are aware of what's coming and can handle it.

**LValx**

muwhe wrote:
Any of the units listed as usable only in the Gladiator “GL” in that document are for Apocalypse only.

Having choices does not equal value. Standard 40k has a lot of choices, most of them we do not see at events.

That doesn't matter though, I think each army should have within the same ballpark of unique choices. The goodness or badness of the individual units can't be balanced out, but you can at least balance out the amount of choices available to players. That to me would help legitimize the product, as it would be more in-line with what has in the past been standard 40k (Codices).

**RiTides**

muwhe wrote:
Any of the units listed as usable only in the Gladiator “GL” in that document are for Apocalypse only.

Having choices does not equal value. Standard 40k has a lot of choices, most of them we do not see at events.

Ah, in that case it becomes more like: 1 page of IG units, 1 page of various SM units... 1 unit total for Necrons (admittedly, it's really cool

), 3 units total for DE, and 4 units total for Tyranids.

Agreed that having tons of choices doesn't necessarily equal having more good ones, but it usually plays out that if you've got a larger pool to pull from, you're going to have more units on the extremes (both good and bad) since you've got more "chances" at landing one

given the way the rules are written.

Most of the units mentioned as problems come from IG / SM, and that's no coincidence- that's the largest pool. Again, it just exacerbates a problem that is there with the codii, but not as extreme. Limiting the amount of FW that can be taken, or at least limiting the most overpowered units (which will likely lie with IG / SM) alleviates this issue, imo. As AdeptiCon usually does this for everything but the Gladiator, I'm perfectly happy with the way AdeptiCon deals with FW units.

I just think it's telling how much work it would be to put that kind of document together. AdeptiCon does the legwork to make FW work. You can't just toss it into a small tourney where the TO doesn't even know what certain units do, and thus can't easily make a rules judgement on it. It's got to be handled responsibly... hence, this thread!

**Vaktathi**

RiTides wrote:
Vaktathi- You do seem to be waving your hand a bit, as they say here, at the stats. Even when talking guardsmen, why are you harping on the 5+ save?

Because it very definitely can be taken advantage of in many situations. Not always, but it very much can come into play. (as I noted, outflanking, deep striking, etc are great tools against such units and the game has such mechanics for a reason).

They're likely behind an aegis, can go to ground for a 2++, and get the order to get back in the fight next turn.

Likely true if the list is built around spamming artillery as much as possible, but again, requires the artillery units to be grouped in a clumped up area around an expensive babysitting service to work well, which certainly causes its own issues (and puts a strain on orders that could otherwise be used for putting out more firepower). Eldar artillery can be placed anywhere and joined by a Warlock giving them Shrouded without having to worry about it

You have some good points but I think you're understating the differences.

It's possible, we all have our own biases and blindnesses, but I really feel that there's a lot that's being made out about stuff like Thudd Guns that's either universal to artillery units or is replicatable by other armies to similar extent without the same outcry, and it's just exceedingly odd that this unit existed for 7 years and two editions (in its current incarnation at least, it did exist before that as an Imperial Army/Space Marine/Squat unit) before people thought "zomg that's so much blast firepower, it'll annihilate entire armies!"

**MVBrandt**

The problem Vak, is that the game has dramatically changed on multiple fronts to make it so, since most of the past 7 years ago.

No artillery unit can stack 12 blasts, and this is initially important b/c at two separate times that I can think of in just the AdeptiTeam tournament, our team and Target's team (ours placed 14th despite mis-counting where we stood, and conceding the entire last round so teammates could take care of sick significant others ... aka, we were in contention for generalship and did very well against our opponents) scattered a full 12" off the first shot, and were able to walk the blast back to destroy entire units.

Entire armies are now consisted entirely of infantry, more often than not, and that hasn't been the case in 7 years. Fifth edition was a MECH edition, which means AV10 vehicles were easy targets for the firepower out there (which is what artillery was prior to 6th), and S5 wasn't exactly useful (since most of the mech armies out there were razorspam and similar, with AV11-12 being prevalent).

Suddenly, the artillery pieces are more durable, and infantry is the dominant presence on the battlefield, and you have a unit whose updates have also buffed it (no longer has to reload every third turn, the initial balancer that showed even FW knew the rules were a little silly), that's nearly impossible to kill with most conventional means, and whose best buffs - twin-linking and LD10 w/ re-roll - are inherent to the best builds it fits within (that's to say, while some people have made the claim, they're mistaken - the things that make Thudd Guns better against their only real weaknesses are inherent to the builds anyway).

It's not the same as eldar platforms that fire 1/4th as many blasts, or ork platforms that fire 1/4th as many blasts.

It's akin to a Thunderfire battery of 3, that costs half as much, and has numerous additional crewmen to soak wounds.

**Breng77**

Yup, I'm with MVBrandt on that one, saying it has been the same for 7 years is not true due to rules changes.

In 5th, as described, it was AV10 that took 1 glance to kill, it was shooting against AV11+ in many cases, and Blasts only did full strength damage if the hole hit the target. Further that by glances doing very little (if any) damage.

So shooting 12 S5 blasts (even if we assume they all hit) meant that you averaged 2 Glancing hits....hardly a big deal.

**Enigwolf**

RiTides wrote:
muwhe wrote:
Any of the units listed as usable only in the Gladiator “GL” in that document are for Apocalypse only.

Having choices does not equal value. Standard 40k has a lot of choices, most of them we do not see at events.

Ah, in that case it becomes more like: 1 page of IG units, 1 page of various SM units... 1 unit total for Necrons (admittedly, it's really cool ), 3 units total for DE, and 4 units total for Tyranids.

Agreed that having tons of choices doesn't necessarily equal having more good ones, but it usually plays out that if you've got a larger pool to pull from, you're going to have more units on the extremes (both good and bad) since you've got more "chances" at landing one given the way the rules are written.

Most of the units mentioned as problems come from IG / SM, and that's no coincidence- that's the largest pool. Again, it just exacerbates a problem that is there with the codii, but not as extreme. Limiting the amount of FW that can be taken, or at least limiting the most overpowered units (which will likely lie with IG / SM) alleviates this issue, imo. As AdeptiCon usually does this for everything but the Gladiator, I'm perfectly happy with the way AdeptiCon deals with FW units.

Imperials also typically have more "useless" fluff units than any other race out there, from Sentinel Power Lifters to Arvus Lighters and Atlas Recovery Vehicles. Once you've removed all of those, as well as all of the "variants" entries (such as the 2 Salamander variants, the 4ish Leman Russ variants, Chimera Variants etc.) you'll realize that they have only marginally more, if not on-par to, other races. Bearing in mind how many Imperial codices there are compared to other races, this is merely an extension of the ratio that exists. Arguing that FW units need to be balanced in the number of choices each race gets is a rather pointless argument given the current state of codices. For example, Imperial Guard already get more tank and artillery options than any other race, and have typically been that way. That's not going to change in future codices.

**Redbeard**

RiTides wrote:
Not to mention, the minefield that is the column of where the rules are. That's an absolute clusterfeth... who honestly has all of those books?

I do.

And what are the chances players will be using the most up to date ones, with how convoluted that is?

Pretty good. Adepticon puts out this nice table to tell us which version of the rules will be the valid ones at their events, and it's not exactly rocket science to consult that list when picking what models you want to use.

**mikhaila**

Chancetragedy wrote:
I'm of the belief it was never "needed" in the first place. People just wanted to take even more broken stuff and run it behind the guise of "more variety". By allowing forgeworld you've just traded the top armies for IG supremacy.

QFT

**rigeld2**

Enigwolf wrote:
Imperials also typically have more "useless" fluff units than any other race out there, from Sentinel Power Lifters to Arvus Lighters and Atlas Recovery Vehicles. Once you've removed all of those, as well as all of the "variants" entries (such as the 2 Salamander variants, the 4ish Leman Russ variants, Chimera Variants etc.) you'll realize that they have only marginally more, if not on-par to, other races. Bearing in mind how many Imperial codices there are compared to other races, this is merely an extension of the ratio that exists. Arguing that FW units need to be balanced in the number of choices each race gets is a rather pointless argument given the current state of codices. For example, Imperial Guard already get more tank and artillery options than any other race, and have typically been that way. That's not going to change in future codices.

Marginally more?

Spoiler:

I missed the second salamander in there accidentally but that's still 24 "extra" models just for IG (not counting the ones shared with SoB).
Please correct me if I missed any. And before you start arguing "Well not all of those are worth the points." there isn't a single Tyranid unit from FW that's worth the points. None.

**RiTides**

Redbeard wrote:
RiTides wrote:
Not to mention, the minefield that is the column of where the rules are. That's an absolute clusterfeth... who honestly has all of those books?
I do.

You cut off my quote of "Yakface, I'm sure

". Next time, I'll say "Yakface and Redbeard, I'm sure

".

Anyone else?

Seriously, you can make light of the point but you are a serious outlier in regards to FW familiarity

. That's a good thing, regarding both you and yakface, but my point remains that that list of books the rules are scattered throughout is Immense!

I've already started to notice this with chaos dwarfs, which I'm starting. Thankfully, it's only one book and so much easier to keep track of. But there are tons of posters over at Chaos Dwarf Online who come on and have the rules wrong. With only one book to learn, the chances of an opposing player (or, at the very least, a TO) being able to correct them on a ruling they have wrong is a lot higher. With that list of 40k FW supplements... heck, the VAST majority of TOs aren't going to know how to make rulings on half of it. Let alone players having any idea.

Thankfully, AdeptiCon has resources like yakface (and you, I believe, also have been involved in the past). But most tournies won't have that, and as I said, that list of additional books, pdfs, etc is Immense. That will get most TOs in over their heads, imo... unless they put in at least a fraction of the preparation that AdeptiCon puts in to be able to allow and make rulings on FW units in major events.

**Blackmoor**

Kain wrote:

Spoiler:

Kain wrote:
Clauss wrote:
Troops are mandatory. Look at the FoC, as far as I can see you have to take at least 2. FW is essentially a new game completely, given how ridiculous thudd guns are along with other units.. Yes I am happy I dont have to face them, because they are too good for their points.

What things in 5th were so imbalanced, please tell me and we can show you tournament results that show you exact opposite over the past years.

So saying people on dakka crying about unit X being too good equates to OP? If you went to more tournaments you would experience this. The vast majority of big tournaments you will see good players make it to top tables, not OP units.

Competitive players are not afraid of the metagame changes, it changes with every codex. Why don't you go ask TOs who run tournaments why they don't allow IA and FW units, then we can get a 1st hand answer instead.

If it was so balanced and accepted, then the logical assumption would be TOs to allow FW to attract players who have FW units which would increase the attendees. So why do they not include FW?

Kain, no, this thread did not have a nice run, it was ridiculous from page one.

Allow me to go through a lot of the perceived imbalances with FW and enlighten you.

The main problem with the Thudd gun is that it takes forever to resolve but it's not really all that killy. Even against my Swarmnids list it isn't particularly killy. I have never lost any more than my Tervigons can replace with interest in one turn to them. Now if you want imbalanced, look at the Vendetta, the ability for the Tau to completely ignore large swathes of the rulebook like cover and assault and having to deal with a mediocre BS, the nigh invincible wave serpent, or the current cookie cutter cheese lists the Necrons have.

The Contemptor dread is pretty balanced and is probably one of the only forms of dreads that ever get used this edition as the rest are made of paper.

Lucius drop pod: 250 points for three power fist attacks at initiative out of a drop pod that has a chance of immobilizing your dread outright...whoop de fething doo.

Night shroud bomber: It's just a doomscythe with a different gun, yes S10 AP1 large blast is nasty, no it is not unhandleable. I mean, do Medusas dominate the meta despite firing out more S10 termi killing shots? No.

Tesseract ark: An annihiliation barge that gets an Executioner's gun, can kill much of your own army if it bites it, and can get AV14 from quantum shielding, is otherwise AV12 and costs nearly as much as a land raider.

Land Raider Achilles: With the advent of hull points, the Achilles is now paying for a -1 on the damage chart that's going to come up a lot less, and while ignoring lance and melta is nice, it can still simply be smashed open by the nearest monstrous creature or walker.

Vulture: Largely inferior to the Vendetta in most every way, only one build (double punisher cannons) is really all that viable and even then it won't kill as many infantry as you'd think (not enough shots to kill big 30 model bricks, or kill a good sized MEQ group), it is surprisingly good for hullpoint stripping on rear armor though.

Avenger: While it is very nice, it's quite reasonably priced and doesn't do anything too out of the ordinary, indeed a Heldrake is a better MEQ slayer than it is and is far more durable too.

Sabre gun platform: Undercosted? Yes. Game breaking? No. In the end, they're nothing more than tougher heavy weapons teams that can shoot at fliers without gimping themselves. Still nothing an Ion pieplate that ignores cover can't wipe off the map.

Stonecrusher Carnifex: Yes it has better regeneration, AP1, and a 2+, it is still just a four wound monstrous creature with no ranged options and it still dies just as easily to lascannons.

Nightwing: A very nice fighter, perhaps the best air superiority fighter in the game. It is however, made of paper and if it rolls a one on it's jink save that is probably the last one it'll ever roll, at which point you can kiss your points goodbye.

Hornet: Cheap, very snazzy, but not fliers, and you know what that means? Yes, autocannon time, and unlike the now ridiculously invincible wave serpent it doesn't have that snazzy shield of "feth your high strength."

Shadow spectres: Oh look overpriced MEQ killing Jump infantry in a codex full of MEQ slaying options, next.

Meiotic spores: Spore mines are bad and these are still glorified spore mines.

Malanthrope: Used to be awesome as hell, then nerfed into sucking.

Hades Breaching drill: was one legitimately overpowered, is now unreasonably terrible and will accomplish nothing other than mishapping itself and dying like a second rate mawloc.

DkoK: Are they a nice army in both flavors? Why yes. Are they inarguably superior to the guard? Well no. Peregrine can explain it better than I can.

Elysian Drop troopers: Yes they can spam fliers to an extent only Cron air can match, but most of those fliers are valkyries, whose best options are rocket pods that do little to MCs and vehicles unlike the Vendetta's heavy bolters and lascannons of kill everything.

Siege Assault Vanguard list: Yes they can spam huge numbers of tanks, yes they can reroll armor saves, guess what? If they don't get the objective they need to place in your side of the table, they can only ever tie. And rerollable armor saves means diddly to AP3 or better weapons.

Decimator daemon engine: Only truly good when run with Nurgle, and even then it costs nearly as much as a Land raider. Feth.

Mortis dreadnought: Delivers much needed skyfire to the Dark Angels, but it's still a dreadnought and is thus still AV12 with no options for added survivability.

Spartan Assault tank: While better than it's smaller land raider brother at everything for only fifty or so points more, you are now investing nearly three hundred points into a 5 HP AV14 all around unit. Which will make you a very sad man indeed when a cheap unit of Eldar drops in, haywires it into oblivion and drops out, or when JSJ fusion suits come in and fry it, or when you roll into rapid fire range of necron warriors and lose all your hull points in one go.

Legions list: Only meant for games in the 2k+ point range, any oddities for smaller games are there because you're trying to use an army that requires horde marines but doesn't make them any cheaper. And why would a primarch be assed to join a 500 pt battle?

Eldar Corsairs: Once better than Craftworld Eldar in every way, now drearily out of date.

Dreadmob list: Like the Armored Battle group, but Orky and with walkers instead of tanks. The only battle brothers you'll ever get for Orks, has all the issues with trying to spam a lot of an expensive unit with no points deduction for said units.

Armored battle group: Yet again, you are trying to spam a lot of tanks that aren't actually cheaper. This is a list that requires skill because even Draigowing lists can outnumber you modelwise.

Maynarch dynasty: The main change is a Necron specific warlord table, the exceedingly overcosted Acranthites, some special characters, flayed one troops with shred, a few special rules, lychguards attatched to HQs, and immortals can't be mandatory troops. Otherwise pretty much the same as Codex Necrons, also not battle brothers with Codex Necrons for some inexplicable reason. Maybe one of them spat in Szarekh's tea.

Lightning fighter: Made of paper with crappy weapons, garbage.

Hell blade: Made of paper with even *crappier* weapons, garbage.

Hell talon: Schizofrenic paper flier, also garbage.

Fighta: Inferior to a dakkajet.

Fighta-bomma: GROT BOMMS! But still has smaller shootas than a plane flown by grots. Huh?

That one ork kopter: An AV11 skimmer, because the Orks need land speeders too. Made of paper, but pretty fun.

Malcador: Probably the worst superheavy ever, actually inferior to it's cost in Leman Russes by a good margin and is overall a really bad tank, taking this in regular 40k is like taking Old One Eye, it eats up so many points for so little in return you're hurting your army.

Thunderbolt: Actually a worse air to air fighter than the Vendetta, which is an armed transport. Funny how things work huh?

I could keep on going but you probably get the point by now.

Tags added for brevity.
reds8n
Because it's worth repeating.

If all of those units are as bad as you seem to think, then you will not mind them being banned.

Kain wrote:
Sabre gun platform: Undercosted? Yes. Game breaking? No. In the end, they're nothing more than tougher heavy weapons teams that can shoot at fliers without gimping themselves. Still nothing an Ion pieplate that ignores cover can't wipe off the map.

So what you are saying is that a TL Lascannon, that has skyfire, that is very, very hard to kill is just a little bit better than a heavy weapons team? Also, one is not game breaking, it's the amount that you can take.

Kain wrote:

Vulture: Largely inferior to the Vendetta in most every way, only one build (double punisher cannons) is really all that viable and even then it won't kill as many infantry as you'd think (not enough shots to kill big 30 model bricks, or kill a good sized MEQ group), it is surprisingly good for hullpoint stripping on rear armor though.

First off, you will only see it with the punisher cannons so saying that the basic build is not that great is irrelevant. How many Valkeries have you seen? I know that I have never played against one because it is inferior to the Vendetta. It will not kill infantry? You are kidding right?

**Vaktathi**

MVBrandt wrote:
The problem Vak, is that the game has dramatically changed on multiple fronts to make it so, since most of the past 7 years ago.

True of course.

No artillery unit can stack 12 blasts, and this is initially important b/c at two separate times that I can think of in just the AdeptiTeam tournament, our team and Target's team (ours placed 14th despite mis-counting where we stood, and conceding the entire last round so teammates could take care of sick significant others ... aka, we were in contention for generalship and did very well against our opponents) scattered a full 12" off the first shot, and were able to walk the blast back to destroy entire units.

That would require 4 Hits however, and, on average, by the time you hit that you'd have exhausted your complement of blasts for the unit. A relatively rare occurrence, much less with enough punch to really hurt once you did walk it back.

Entire armies are now consisted entirely of infantry, more often than not, and that hasn't been the case in 7 years.

It certainly was the case in 2006/2007 and most of 2008, only the Skimmerspam armies were mech really, almost everything else was generally infantry based.

Fifth edition was a MECH edition, which means AV10 vehicles were easy targets for the firepower out there (which is what artillery was prior to 6th), and S5 wasn't exactly useful (since most of the mech armies out there were razorspam and similar, with AV11-12 being prevalent).

True, but that doesn't mean that infantry killing firepower wasn't necessary or desired.

Suddenly, the artillery pieces are more durable, and infantry is the dominant presence on the battlefield

Entirely true. That said, they were far too fragile beforehand

and you have a unit whose updates have also buffed it (no longer has to reload every third turn, the initial balancer that showed even FW knew the rules were a little silly)

IIRC it was a fluff rule harkening back to its 2E incarnation that they got rid of after everyone only ever took the heavy mortars.

that's nearly impossible to kill with most conventional means

Yes, if all you do is shoot at it frontally across an aegis line. Same thing if you stuck a Leman Russ with camo netting behind one. If you get into the side/rear you can more readily start putting wounds on the guns and bypassing the cover save, and if you get almost anything at all into CC, the unit evaporates (2 or 3 marines getting into a full Thudd Gun unit will generally break it).

It's not the same as eldar platforms that fire 1/4th as many blasts, or ork platforms that fire 1/4th as many blasts.

Which also cost significantly fewer points. And the number of blasts alone isn't showing the whole picture, strength, AP/rending-like abilities and size of the blast very much matters, a unit of IG HWS's with mortars have 3x as many blasts as a Medusa...but there's a world of difference there.

A unit of 3 Shadow Weavers sporting a Conceal warlock are entirely capable of proving similarly resilient (2+ cover saves without needing an Aegis line specifically and not needing orders to get back into the fight) and with fearsome firepower themselves (3 S6/7 Large Blasts that get AP1 on to-wound rolls of 6 vs 12 S5 small blasts) for fewer points. You can get three such units and two Farseers (9 S6/7 Large Blasts with mini-rending and two Divination psykers and Conceal on everything) for about the same price as two fully kitted Thudd Gun units+CCS and Lord Commissar.

EDIT: Apparently this got FAQ'd and the Shadow Weaver no longer has a large blast (unfortuante for the Eldar), so admittedly, the Thudd guns do gain there now.

It's akin to a Thunderfire battery of 3, that costs half as much, and has numerous additional crewmen to soak wounds.

In a sense, but with lower S on primary blast, no ignores cover option (only intervening cover), no tertiary blast option, no 2+sv crew sporting a plasma weapon and a powerfist attack, no cover reinforcement (big one), significantly lower Ld, and lower BS for direct fire.

**Clauss**

Vaktathi check the eldar FAQ, sadly shadow weavers are small blasts. If They were large we would all have 9. Including me

**Vaktathi**

Ah, good catch. Hoist by my own petard.

Welp, that sucks for the Eldar, and does rather invalidate my previous example

**Kain**

I post the big list and get ignored

*grumble grumble*

**vhwolf**

RiTides wrote:
Redbeard wrote:
RiTides wrote:
Not to mention, the minefield that is the column of where the rules are. That's an absolute clusterfeth... who honestly has all of those books?
I do.

You cut off my quote of "Yakface, I'm sure ". Next time, I'll say "Yakface and Redbeard, I'm sure ".

Anyone else?

Seriously, you can make light of the point but you are a serious outlier in regards to FW familiarity . That's a good thing, regarding both you and yakface, but my point remains that that list of books the rules are scattered throughout is Immense!

I've already started to notice this with chaos dwarfs, which I'm starting. Thankfully, it's only one book and so much easier to keep track of. But there are tons of posters over at Chaos Dwarf Online who come on and have the rules wrong. With only one book to learn, the chances of an opposing player (or, at the very least, a TO) being able to correct them on a ruling they have wrong is a lot higher. With that list of 40k FW supplements... heck, the VAST majority of TOs aren't going to know how to make rulings on half of it. Let alone players having any idea.

Thankfully, AdeptiCon has resources like yakface (and you, I believe, also have been involved in the past). But most tournies won't have that, and as I said, that list of additional books, pdfs, etc is Immense. That will get most TOs in over their heads, imo... unless they put in at least a fraction of the preparation that AdeptiCon puts in to be able to allow and make rulings on FW units in major events.

I own every Forgeworld book and every codex. Even though I am no longer running tournaments I still like to read about everything. Most of the people I play with own most of the stuff also.

**Kain**

Blackmoor wrote:
Kain wrote:

Spoiler:

Kain wrote:
Clauss wrote:
Troops are mandatory. Look at the FoC, as far as I can see you have to take at least 2. FW is essentially a new game completely, given how ridiculous thudd guns are along with other units.. Yes I am happy I dont have to face them, because they are too good for their points.

What things in 5th were so imbalanced, please tell me and we can show you tournament results that show you exact opposite over the past years.

So saying people on dakka crying about unit X being too good equates to OP? If you went to more tournaments you would experience this. The vast majority of big tournaments you will see good players make it to top tables, not OP units.

Competitive players are not afraid of the metagame changes, it changes with every codex. Why don't you go ask TOs who run tournaments why they don't allow IA and FW units, then we can get a 1st hand answer instead.

If it was so balanced and accepted, then the logical assumption would be TOs to allow FW to attract players who have FW units which would increase the attendees. So why do they not include FW?

Kain, no, this thread did not have a nice run, it was ridiculous from page one.

Allow me to go through a lot of the perceived imbalances with FW and enlighten you.

The main problem with the Thudd gun is that it takes forever to resolve but it's not really all that killy. Even against my Swarmnids list it isn't particularly killy. I have never lost any more than my Tervigons can replace with interest in one turn to them. Now if you want imbalanced, look at the Vendetta, the ability for the Tau to completely ignore large swathes of the rulebook like cover and assault and having to deal with a mediocre BS, the nigh invincible wave serpent, or the current cookie cutter cheese lists the Necrons have.

The Contemptor dread is pretty balanced and is probably one of the only forms of dreads that ever get used this edition as the rest are made of paper.

Lucius drop pod: 250 points for three power fist attacks at initiative out of a drop pod that has a chance of immobilizing your dread outright...whoop de fething doo.

Night shroud bomber: It's just a doomscythe with a different gun, yes S10 AP1 large blast is nasty, no it is not unhandleable. I mean, do Medusas dominate the meta despite firing out more S10 termi killing shots? No.

Tesseract ark: An annihiliation barge that gets an Executioner's gun, can kill much of your own army if it bites it, and can get AV14 from quantum shielding, is otherwise AV12 and costs nearly as much as a land raider.

Land Raider Achilles: With the advent of hull points, the Achilles is now paying for a -1 on the damage chart that's going to come up a lot less, and while ignoring lance and melta is nice, it can still simply be smashed open by the nearest monstrous creature or walker.

Vulture: Largely inferior to the Vendetta in most every way, only one build (double punisher cannons) is really all that viable and even then it won't kill as many infantry as you'd think (not enough shots to kill big 30 model bricks, or kill a good sized MEQ group), it is surprisingly good for hullpoint stripping on rear armor though.

Avenger: While it is very nice, it's quite reasonably priced and doesn't do anything too out of the ordinary, indeed a Heldrake is a better MEQ slayer than it is and is far more durable too.

Sabre gun platform: Undercosted? Yes. Game breaking? No. In the end, they're nothing more than tougher heavy weapons teams that can shoot at fliers without gimping themselves. Still nothing an Ion pieplate that ignores cover can't wipe off the map.

Stonecrusher Carnifex: Yes it has better regeneration, AP1, and a 2+, it is still just a four wound monstrous creature with no ranged options and it still dies just as easily to lascannons.

Nightwing: A very nice fighter, perhaps the best air superiority fighter in the game. It is however, made of paper and if it rolls a one on it's jink save that is probably the last one it'll ever roll, at which point you can kiss your points goodbye.

Hornet: Cheap, very snazzy, but not fliers, and you know what that means? Yes, autocannon time, and unlike the now ridiculously invincible wave serpent it doesn't have that snazzy shield of "feth your high strength."

Shadow spectres: Oh look overpriced MEQ killing Jump infantry in a codex full of MEQ slaying options, next.

Meiotic spores: Spore mines are bad and these are still glorified spore mines.

Malanthrope: Used to be awesome as hell, then nerfed into sucking.

Hades Breaching drill: was one legitimately overpowered, is now unreasonably terrible and will accomplish nothing other than mishapping itself and dying like a second rate mawloc.

DkoK: Are they a nice army in both flavors? Why yes. Are they inarguably superior to the guard? Well no. Peregrine can explain it better than I can.

Elysian Drop troopers: Yes they can spam fliers to an extent only Cron air can match, but most of those fliers are valkyries, whose best options are rocket pods that do little to MCs and vehicles unlike the Vendetta's heavy bolters and lascannons of kill everything.

Siege Assault Vanguard list: Yes they can spam huge numbers of tanks, yes they can reroll armor saves, guess what? If they don't get the objective they need to place in your side of the table, they can only ever tie. And rerollable armor saves means diddly to AP3 or better weapons.

Decimator daemon engine: Only truly good when run with Nurgle, and even then it costs nearly as much as a Land raider. Feth.

Mortis dreadnought: Delivers much needed skyfire to the Dark Angels, but it's still a dreadnought and is thus still AV12 with no options for added survivability.

Spartan Assault tank: While better than it's smaller land raider brother at everything for only fifty or so points more, you are now investing nearly three hundred points into a 5 HP AV14 all around unit. Which will make you a very sad man indeed when a cheap unit of Eldar drops in, haywires it into oblivion and drops out, or when JSJ fusion suits come in and fry it, or when you roll into rapid fire range of necron warriors and lose all your hull points in one go.

Legions list: Only meant for games in the 2k+ point range, any oddities for smaller games are there because you're trying to use an army that requires horde marines but doesn't make them any cheaper. And why would a primarch be assed to join a 500 pt battle?

Eldar Corsairs: Once better than Craftworld Eldar in every way, now drearily out of date.

Dreadmob list: Like the Armored Battle group, but Orky and with walkers instead of tanks. The only battle brothers you'll ever get for Orks, has all the issues with trying to spam a lot of an expensive unit with no points deduction for said units.

Armored battle group: Yet again, you are trying to spam a lot of tanks that aren't actually cheaper. This is a list that requires skill because even Draigowing lists can outnumber you modelwise.

Maynarch dynasty: The main change is a Necron specific warlord table, the exceedingly overcosted Acranthites, some special characters, flayed one troops with shred, a few special rules, lychguards attatched to HQs, and immortals can't be mandatory troops. Otherwise pretty much the same as Codex Necrons, also not battle brothers with Codex Necrons for some inexplicable reason. Maybe one of them spat in Szarekh's tea.

Lightning fighter: Made of paper with crappy weapons, garbage.

Hell blade: Made of paper with even *crappier* weapons, garbage.

Hell talon: Schizofrenic paper flier, also garbage.

Fighta: Inferior to a dakkajet.

Fighta-bomma: GROT BOMMS! But still has smaller shootas than a plane flown by grots. Huh?

That one ork kopter: An AV11 skimmer, because the Orks need land speeders too. Made of paper, but pretty fun.

Malcador: Probably the worst superheavy ever, actually inferior to it's cost in Leman Russes by a good margin and is overall a really bad tank, taking this in regular 40k is like taking Old One Eye, it eats up so many points for so little in return you're hurting your army.

Thunderbolt: Actually a worse air to air fighter than the Vendetta, which is an armed transport. Funny how things work huh?

I could keep on going but you probably get the point by now.

Tags added for brevity.
reds8n
Because it's worth repeating.

If all of those units are as bad as you seem to think, then you will not mind them being banned.

Kain wrote:
Sabre gun platform: Undercosted? Yes. Game breaking? No. In the end, they're nothing more than tougher heavy weapons teams that can shoot at fliers without gimping themselves. Still nothing an Ion pieplate that ignores cover can't wipe off the map.

So what you are saying is that a TL Lascannon, that has skyfire, that is very, very hard to kill is just a little bit better than a heavy weapons team? Also, one is not game breaking, it's the amount that you can take.

Kain wrote:

Vulture: Largely inferior to the Vendetta in most every way, only one build (double punisher cannons) is really all that viable and even then it won't kill as many infantry as you'd think (not enough shots to kill big 30 model bricks, or kill a good sized MEQ group), it is surprisingly good for hullpoint stripping on rear armor though.

First off, you will only see it with the punisher cannons so saying that the basic build is not that great is irrelevant. How many Valkeries have you seen? I know that I have never played against one because it is inferior to the Vendetta. It will not kill infantry? You are kidding right?

It won't kill enough infantry. Punisher vultures can't put enough of a dent in my gant swarms to matter and they can't get enough wounds through my MCs to matter either. Not unless you want to divert three of them to one target, in which case you are better served by the Vendetta, which is still the most unfair unit of all time.

And you know how I deal with sabres? I swamp them and assault them at which point they're undersized guardsmen blocks who die in mere moments. This is the edition of massive hordes, you should have enough boys to get into assault range and murder them all without hassle.

And I do mind them being banned, because it punishes people who have put time and effort into their armies to accommodate some gripers. I've been playing since 2e and I'm certainly not going to bend over to some little timmy who's upset that he has to horror of horrors, adapt a little to accomodate to some new units like he does every time a new codex hits.

I have no sympathy to people who can't adapt to meta alterations. Which apparently includes you good sir.

**RiTides**

Kain wrote:I have no sympathy to people who can't adapt to meta alterations. Which apparently includes you good sir.

Actually, as has been well documented in this thread, most of the top tournament players (of which Blackmoor is definitely a part) have said they will certainly take FW artillery when it is allowed. It's the average players that the debate is really about. Although they will take them, many top players have noted (in this thread!) that they don't think it would be good for the game.

Good luck finishing a tournament game with enough gaunts to "swamp" thudd guns. I assume you already polished off the intervening guard blob, too...?

If this is the edition of swarms THAT big, then point levels need to be revisited, too. That's already probably true, even without any additional variables, though.

**DarthDiggler**

So the answe to FW is to play giant horde lists that swamp artillery and don't get dented by twin punisher shots? Does adapting to the meta mean you can only play one type of army? FW doesn't sound so fun when only giant swarms can ignore their units.

**kronk**

RiTides wrote:
Redbeard wrote:
RiTides wrote:
Not to mention, the minefield that is the column of where the rules are. That's an absolute clusterfeth... who honestly has all of those books?
I do.

You cut off my quote of "Yakface, I'm sure ". Next time, I'll say "Yakface and Redbeard, I'm sure ".

Anyone else?

I have all but IA2, IA3, and IA12, but I have 2 people in my group with IA2, and it's laughably out of date, anyway.

**whembly**

DarthDiggler wrote:
So the answe to FW is to play giant horde lists that swamp artillery and don't get dented by twin punisher shots? Does adapting to the meta mean you can only play one type of army? FW doesn't sound so fun when only giant swarms can ignore their units.

I'd argue that the standard Deathwing can take 'em on.

Shoot... I can see a Termigon-heavy list + Yrmagl can give this list loads trouble.

*shrug* Those artillery list are strong... the meta will adapt.

Jeez... I remember when TWC and Nob Bikers were the cheese.

o.O

**Glocknall**

Kain wrote: Punisher vultures can't put enough of a dent in my gant swarms to matter and they can't get enough wounds through my MCs to matter either. Not unless you want to divert three of them to one target, in which case you are better served by the Vendetta, which is still the most unfair unit of all time.

I see this straw man argument over an over when discussing Forge World. The Vendetta is OP/undercosted red herring. Yes its potent, yes its undercosted (but not by the 50-100 points) and its completely possible to counter. The Vendetta is one of the most predictable units in 40k. You know its role, you know exactly when it will enter the game, from which table edge, and what targets it will go after. No Vendetta spam army has won a major GT, in fact I cant remember a list in the past year that won with a Vendetta that didn't also feature FW. Over and over is see arguments for FW in tourneys who turn around and point and yell about the Vendetta as the reason we need FW or at the very least FW is equivalent to them. Now that we have seen the last two codices come out with excellent anti-air its silly to keep turning to the Vendetta rationale. It was very powerful at the dawn of 6thed. Now its a good unit.

**Kain**

Glocknall wrote:
Kain wrote: Punisher vultures can't put enough of a dent in my gant swarms to matter and they can't get enough wounds through my MCs to matter either. Not unless you want to divert three of them to one target, in which case you are better served by the Vendetta, which is still the most unfair unit of all time.

I see this straw man argument over an over when discussing Forge World. The Vendetta is OP/undercosted red herring. Yes its potent, yes its undercosted (but not by the 50-100 points) and its completely possible to counter. The Vendetta is one of the most predictable units in 40k. You know its role, you know exactly when it will enter the game, from which table edge, and what targets it will go after. No Vendetta spam army has won a major GT, in fact I cant remember a list in the past year that won with a Vendetta that didn't also feature FW. Over and over is see arguments for FW in tourneys who turn around and point and yell about the Vendetta as the reason we need FW or at the very least FW is equivalent to them. Now that we have seen the last two codices come out with excellent anti-air its silly to keep turning to the Vendetta rationale. It was very powerful at the dawn of 6thed. Now its a good unit.

Heldrakes, Night Scythes, Doom Scythes, Annihilation Barges, the ability of the Tau codex to say "assault phase? Son you won't even survive shooting phase" and ignore cover saves, invincible wave serpents, Coteaz henchmen armies, Wraiths, D-scythes (Assault, what's that?), Necron AV13 spam, Necrons ignoring any nerfs 6e gave to old dex armies, and did I mention that the Tau codex is silly with it's ability to ignore night fighting, cover, it's mediocre BS, an utterly irrelevant weakness (assault, you won't live to see assault against a Tau list, you'll be lucky to see overwatch anyway), interceptor and skyfire out the wazoo, and effectively hard countering everything? Because I find the Tau to be the most fun-sucking army ever.

Sure the Necrons are perhaps stronger, but the Tau are just not fun to play against.

**LValx**

Pro-FW advocates too often label anti-FW folks as being resistant to change. I don't think that's the case. If FW becomes the standard, I wouldn't quit, I'd adapt by building IG!

**whembly**

Lemme just throw this in...

If you're a TO, and you want to minimize these sorts of spammed out Artillery lists, but don't necessarily outright ban them.

Why not "control" it on the table scenery?

First announce it (I think BugEater did this)... saying that there will be at least one big LOS blocking terrain on the table.

I'm not advocating to completely neuter shooty army by putting a crap ton of scenery on the table. But, in the given scenario, have the terrain provide some cover if you need to hide from a gunline army.

If you announce it ahead of time, then the players will take that into account when building their list.

I know... I know... easier said than done.

Just a thought....

**Blackmoor**

Kain wrote:

It won't kill enough infantry. Punisher vultures can't put enough of a dent in my gant swarms to matter and they can't get enough wounds through my MCs to matter either. Not unless you want to divert three of them to one target, in which case you are better served by the Vendetta, which is still the most unfair unit of all time.

I don't have my books with me but how many MEQs/GEQs can it kill?

And you know how I deal with sabres? I swamp them and assault them at which point they're undersized guardsmen blocks who die in mere moments. This is the edition of massive hordes, you should have enough boys to get into assault range and murder them all without hassle.

And I do mind them being banned, because it punishes people who have put time and effort into their armies to accommodate some gripers. I've been playing since 2e and I'm certainly not going to bend over to some little timmy who's upset that he has to horror of horrors, adapt a little to accomodate to some new units like he does every time a new codex hits.

I have no sympathy to people who can't adapt to meta alterations. Which apparently includes you good sir.

it shows the ignorance of people when they just look at one unit and figure out a way to beat it, and they completely ignore the reality of the game of 40k.

It is how all of these units work together that is the problem. Remember Thudd Guns? You have them with your saber platforms, and they will kill your gant squads. Also they are bubble wrapped with blob guardsmen backed up by rune priests. They can blow your gants off of the table before you can even get close.

You show how little you know about 40k when you make a statement that all you have to do is swamp them in assault.