Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

MVBrandt wrote:
The issue is the large swathe of the majority of GT attendees. MOST of them don't know much about FW,

...

The argument to be had is about familiarity, access, and fairness toward the "Average" guy.

Somehow, this just doesn't feel appropriate for a competitive setting. The NFL doesn't tell RG3 that he can't play because most average players can't keep up with him. The NBA doesn't tell LeBron that he can't play because most average players can't guard him. The World Series of Poker doesn't tell Phil Hellmuth he can't play because the average players can't read him.

Competitive events have no business being governed by how the average player can cope. It might sell tickets, but it's not really establishing who the good players are.

 Kain wrote:
I made no attack on your credibility as the crux of my argument. It is not logically fallacious to call someone wrong and dumb, it is a fallacy to call them wrong because they are dumb however. Here I'm simply saying that you are apparently to hidebound to a meta that in reality is utterly imbalanced without FW to which the addition of does nothing to worsen and therefore are not worthy of my sympathy.

I did not call you dumb (I don't think) I called you ignorant. I.E: “caused by a lack of knowledge, understanding, or experience”

To say that the FW IG units are not vastly overpowered is wrong. Also taken in a vacuum each unit is not all that bad, but when you add the synergy of Rune Priests, Thudd Guns, Vultures, Blob Squads, Saber Defense Platforms, Vendettas, Heavy Artillery Platforms, ADLs, Command Squad orders, Lord Commissars etc. all in one army they you have a problem.

I played against an army with all of the units above (except Thudd Guns) and it blew me off of the table. It had over $800.00 worth of FW models in it, and it was way OP. Given time and money every list will be like the above but we are not there yet. I wish Alan took a better list to WGC so we can see what it can do. He needed Rune Priests and some Heavy Artillery and he would have done great. His mistake was going too heavy anti-infantry and lost to a mech army played by one of the best players in the country...twice

Necrons, Tau, and Eldar have almost completely gutted the meta and turned it topsy turvy. Shall we ban those three armies because they have forced the entire game to bend around ways to killing them?

No that would be silly.

That is my point in the original point. We have all of this change who wants to throw the FW monkey wrench into it?

Also, if I am so unwilling to change and adapt to the changing meta, how come I have no problems with Tau and Eldar, but do not want FW?

Except you are talking professional events, when there is a pro 40k league I'm with you but I'm pretty sure you're local 30 and over basketball league is going to ask an MBA player not to play because he will roll all the average guys. 40k is much closer to the later an event the consumer pays to play, rather than one where they get paid.

 Redbeard wrote:

MVBrandt wrote:
The issue is the large swathe of the majority of GT attendees. MOST of them don't know much about FW,

...

The argument to be had is about familiarity, access, and fairness toward the "Average" guy.

Somehow, this just doesn't feel appropriate for a competitive setting. The World Series of Poker doesn't tell Phil Hellmuth he can't play because the average players can't read him.

It tells the average players that they can't afford to play because it cost $10,000.00 to enter and thus it is a barrier limiting who can play with the big boys.

I would agree with you Blackmoor, but has anyone tell you at WGC, someone was using agesis defensive line Laser cannon as Saber plateform???

@Vaktathi

I might not be explaining it well.

First, no event is "ranked" play in the sense of a league or national standings. I just thought I'd throw that out there as it's a fairly important part of my thoughts.

I build solid lists that allow me to win. Maybe not by enormous margins but consistantly win across a spectrum of events. It's tools in a box for me. I think you over estimate how much upper level players use "uber" builds as well.

Forgeworld essentially gives me alternative tools that are cheaper than the current tools and allows me to bring more tools or more alternative tools as the FW is so much more efficient point and damage wise.

And I feel bad for my first 2-3 opponents because generally they are like Ritides. They came to a weekend event to roll dice and have fun. I'd say at least 3/4 of a GT crowd knows going in they aren't going to win. And the majority of the 1/4 don't expect it but entertain the idea they might. The 3/4's came to an event to see friends, get away for a weekend with like minded folks, have some drinks, and generally relax. I come to the events for the same reason. I just know I have a shot at taking home the overall win, best general, best sportsman, or best painted (all but best general so far at GT's this year) unlike many of the people attending.

I'd feel bad because my toolbox army goes from being good enough to win solidly to "I am so sorry about that" level against non-top tier opponents. People generally walk away from games with me knowing they were in it. Give me FW and that won't be the case anymore, even if my opponents have it.

Note: I have dispensed with my humility for this one post. I'm back to viewing being pretty good at playing with toy soldiers where it appropriately goes. Right up there with being awesome at miniature golf

It had over $800.00 worth of FW models in it..

You keep bringing this up - but you realize you can custom make this stuff? You can alter existing GW models, bring in models that aren't from the GW line and with some creativity you can make an appropriate model to represent it.

There is no GW Governing body on what % of your army has to be GW models any more...

 Hulksmash wrote:
@Vaktathi

I might not be explaining it well.

First, no event is "ranked" play in the sense of a league or national standings. I just thought I'd throw that out there as it's a fairly important part of my thoughts.

I build solid lists that allow me to win. Maybe not by enormous margins but consistantly win across a spectrum of events. It's tools in a box for me. I think you over estimate how much upper level players use "uber" builds as well.

Forgeworld essentially gives me alternative tools that are cheaper than the current tools and allows me to bring more tools or more alternative tools as the FW is so much more efficient point and damage wise.

And I feel bad for my first 2-3 opponents because generally they are like Ritides. They came to a weekend event to roll dice and have fun. I'd say at least 3/4 of a GT crowd knows going in they aren't going to win. And the majority of the 1/4 don't expect it but entertain the idea they might. The 3/4's came to an event to see friends, get away for a weekend with like minded folks, have some drinks, and generally relax. I come to the events for the same reason. I just know I have a shot at taking home the overall win, best general, best sportsman, or best painted (all but best general so far at GT's this year) unlike many of the people attending.

I'd feel bad because my toolbox army goes from being good enough to win solidly to "I am so sorry about that" level against non-top tier opponents. People generally walk away from games with me knowing they were in it. Give me FW and that won't be the case anymore, even if my opponents have it.

Note: I have dispensed with my humility for this one post. I'm back to viewing being pretty good at playing with toy soldiers where it appropriately goes. Right up there with being awesome at miniature golf

I agree on alot of levels here and I think other great players like Brad would agree. The amount of fun I would have shooting 3 guns a turn would be completely mitigated by the despair on my opponents face.

 Blackmoor wrote:

 Kain wrote:
I made no attack on your credibility as the crux of my argument. It is not logically fallacious to call someone wrong and dumb, it is a fallacy to call them wrong because they are dumb however. Here I'm simply saying that you are apparently to hidebound to a meta that in reality is utterly imbalanced without FW to which the addition of does nothing to worsen and therefore are not worthy of my sympathy.

I did not call you dumb (I don't think) I called you ignorant. I.E: “caused by a lack of knowledge, understanding, or experience”

To say that the FW IG units are not vastly overpowered is wrong. Also taken in a vacuum each unit is not all that bad, but when you add the synergy of Rune Priests, Thudd Guns, Vultures, Blob Squads, Saber Defense Platforms, Vendettas, Heavy Artillery Platforms, ADLs, Command Squad orders, Lord Commissars etc. all in one army they you have a problem.

I played against an army with all of the units above (except Thudd Guns) and it blew me off of the table. It had over $800.00 worth of FW models in it, and it was way OP. Given time and money every list will be like the above but we are not there yet. I wish Alan took a better list to WGC so we can see what it can do. He needed Rune Priests and some Heavy Artillery and he would have done great. His mistake was going too heavy anti-infantry and lost to a mech army played by one of the best players in the country...twice

Necrons, Tau, and Eldar have almost completely gutted the meta and turned it topsy turvy. Shall we ban those three armies because they have forced the entire game to bend around ways to killing them?

No that would be silly.

That is my point in the original point. We have all of this change who wants to throw the FW monkey wrench into it?

Also, if I am so unwilling to change and adapt to the changing meta, how come I have no problems with Tau and Eldar, but do not want FW?

I can't read your mind, if I could read minds I'd probably be rich enough to buy GW a dozen times over, or be lying on a dissection table getting cut up for science. Only you can answer why you do things, i at best can only analyze that, and as my academics are in the fields of studying the behavior of long extinct dinosaurs I cannot give a professional opinion.

The vulture is still inferior to the vendetta in every way that matters against every target that matters. If I suggested banning the vendetta, I'd get gakcanned out of most GTs faster than you can say "whoopsies". Maybe it's just the kind of armies I play, but the Thudd gun bothers me no more than spammed lobbaz or whirlwinds do. As for the sabre platform, it's only truly good with TL lascannons, otherwise it's just meh, and with lascannons it's rubbish against hordes or monstrous creatures.

Heavy artillery is hard countered by monstrous creatures who are only ever going to take one wound per shot from it and once a Trygon or Bloodthirster gets into assault, that unit is doomed, no ifs and buts about it.

As for FW IG, Codex Tau obliterates it with ease thanks to cover ignoring everything, the ability to disregard their mediocre BS, their splurge of high strength long range shots, the ability to instantly gakcan any flier on the board, and Iontides give no feths about T7 3+, especially not when they can ignore cover and wipe the entire unit in a shot or two. Oh and nightfighting does nothing to the Tau who can take Imotekh as an ally to give themselves free Nightfighting.

The Necrons, get some wraiths into the artillery, let the flying bakery of doom run amuck while the absurdly undercosted annihilation barges and doom scythes do their work, oh and free night fighting to mitigate all your shooting and lightning for one in every six of your models (there's a reason why I give THE LOOK OF SUPREME DISPLEASURE to teams that bring Imotekh without prior warning in Apoc), and have some D&D squads while you're at it to murder some more units. And you can take Tau allies to zap fliers and ignore cover.

Eldar, they're still new, but the Wave Serpent already rubs me the wrong way. As does the potential to give any given wraith unit TEQ saves (that can be rerollable if you have another lucky psyker handy), because as we all know everyone enjoys killing a T8 6 wound MC that now has a 2+ rerollable armor save, and if you don't you can eat plasma because that's just how the Eldar roll.

 Redbeard wrote:

MVBrandt wrote:
The issue is the large swathe of the majority of GT attendees. MOST of them don't know much about FW,

...

The argument to be had is about familiarity, access, and fairness toward the "Average" guy.

Somehow, this just doesn't feel appropriate for a competitive setting. The NFL doesn't tell RG3 that he can't play because most average players can't keep up with him. The NBA doesn't tell LeBron that he can't play because most average players can't guard him. The World Series of Poker doesn't tell Phil Hellmuth he can't play because the average players can't read him.

Competitive events have no business being governed by how the average player can cope. It might sell tickets, but it's not really establishing who the good players are.

Terrible analogy. Those are paid athletes, professionals, who are the very best at what they do. Those organizations also make money due to sales of products, etc, etc. Unfortunately, the GT's are generally paid for by the TOs and sponsers/supporters. They NEED to cater at least somewhat to the majority of their attendees. I'm no TO, but i'm sure Mr. Brandt can delve into further detail on that topic.

Most of the top tier players in this thread have expressed that they rather not see FW in a GT setting (of course if they had to play it, they'd adapt). So apparently both the competitive minority and the more casual-leaning majority prefer no/limited-FW.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@ Kain, your statement concerning Vendettas being better than Vultures versus every target shows a gross misunderstanding of 6th edition. You do realize that infantry based lists are far more likely to be seen than mechanized ones? Lascannons do next to nothing to Xenos infantry (which you are likely to see due to Drakes), Vultures beat them up pretty badly. The weight of fire will also take out light armor fairly easily due to the new HP mechanic. Hell, it's fast and maneuverable enough to get most of the heavier tanks due to side/rear shots.

Heavy artillery is still good vs armies that take MCs. VS. Nids it'll kill Gants, Gargs, Biovores, etc. If you take Vendettas/Sabres, you'll have enough Lascannons to scare MCs, so it's a pretty meaningless thing to bring up. Guard have the tools across slots to deal with just about all armies.

I do agree that Tau are probably more powerful than FW IG.

I don't agree that Necrons are though. Sabre's would have a big impact on Scythes, they can do a fair bit of damage to them AND get to alpha strike (also do well vs Barges). Thudd Guns might not be optimal vs. Wraiths, but they are sure to do some damage. Combine that with other tools they can bring (Rune Priests, big blobs with Prescience) and Necrons start to have a bit of an uphill battle, IMO at least.

 cvtuttle wrote:

It had over $800.00 worth of FW models in it..

You keep bringing this up - but you realize you can custom make this stuff? You can alter existing GW models, bring in models that aren't from the GW line and with some creativity you can make an appropriate model to represent it.

There is no GW Governing body on what % of your army has to be GW models any more...

Tell that to the GW Gestapo and legal team!

They want you to think that there is no GW secret police monitoring tournaments until it is too late!

 Hulksmash wrote:
Note: I have dispensed with my humility for this one post. I'm back to viewing being pretty good at playing with toy soldiers where it appropriately goes. Right up there with being awesome at miniature golf

That was awesome . And hey, some people are SERIOUS about miniature golf!

But, seriously seriously- this isn't a pro sporting venue (I know that analogy in particular irks yakface, who obviously is pro-FW inclusion). People are paying to enter. The event is going to be geared to be enjoyable. This is the whole reason "comp" existed in the past, to make for an enjoyable event (imo). This isn't pro sports and TOs can and should make informed decisions to deliver a high quality and fun event.

High quality, meaning if they're going to allow FW, they better put in the legwork AdeptiCon and other big tournaments do to be ready for it!

Fun event, meaning they sometimes ban items (in fantasy, the "folding fortress" is often disallowed), make specific rulings, etc. This is absolutely within the scope of what a TO can and should do. There is no blanket "this is pro 40k, there can be no restrictions" statement. That's just e-peen measuring, and given that we're talking about tiny soldiers, they're probably pretty small in any case

 LValx wrote:

 Redbeard wrote:

MVBrandt wrote:
The issue is the large swathe of the majority of GT attendees. MOST of them don't know much about FW,

...

The argument to be had is about familiarity, access, and fairness toward the "Average" guy.

Somehow, this just doesn't feel appropriate for a competitive setting. The NFL doesn't tell RG3 that he can't play because most average players can't keep up with him. The NBA doesn't tell LeBron that he can't play because most average players can't guard him. The World Series of Poker doesn't tell Phil Hellmuth he can't play because the average players can't read him.

Competitive events have no business being governed by how the average player can cope. It might sell tickets, but it's not really establishing who the good players are.

Terrible analogy. Those are paid athletes, professionals, who are the very best at what they do. Those organizations also make money due to sales of products, etc, etc. Unfortunately, the GT's are generally paid for by the TOs and sponsers/supporters. They NEED to cater at least somewhat to the majority of their attendees. I'm no TO, but i'm sure Mr. Brandt can delve into further detail on that topic.

Most of the top tier players in this thread have expressed that they rather not see FW in a GT setting (of course if they had to play it, they'd adapt). So apparently both the competitive minority and the more casual-leaning majority prefer no/limited-FW.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@ Kain, your statement concerning Vendettas being better than Vultures versus every target shows a gross misunderstanding of 6th edition. You do realize that infantry based lists are far more likely to be seen than mechanized ones? Lascannons do next to nothing to Xenos infantry (which you are likely to see due to Drakes), Vultures beat them up pretty badly. The weight of fire will also take out light armor fairly easily due to the new HP mechanic. Hell, it's fast and maneuverable enough to get most of the heavier tanks due to side/rear shots.

Heavy artillery is still good vs armies that take MCs. VS. Nids it'll kill Gants, Gargs, Biovores, etc. If you take Vendettas/Sabres, you'll have enough Lascannons to scare MCs, so it's a pretty meaningless thing to bring up. Guard have the tools across slots to deal with just about all armies.

I do agree that Tau are probably more powerful than FW IG.

I don't agree that Necrons are though. Sabre's would have a big impact on Scythes, they can do a fair bit of damage to them AND get to alpha strike (also do well vs Barges). Thudd Guns might not be optimal vs. Wraiths, but they are sure to do some damage. Combine that with other tools they can bring (Rune Priests, big blobs with Prescience) and Necrons start to have a bit of an uphill battle, IMO at least.

I take heavy bolters on my Vendettas to gut infantry, being able to ignore 4 ups is a pretty big deal. Additionally Vendettas can drop scoring units to steal a win out from someone's nose, something they can't do anything about.

And if I were worried about losing one or two MCs, I wouldn't be using a monster mash focused MTO list as my main. Not to mention that your list would still have to deal with a rain of Zoanthropes using psychic shriek to disregard your guardsmen's improved toughness and saves altogether, maybe even have a doom in there too or maybe just more zoanthropes shrieking all day. Even with LD10 you are still going to be losing models by the bucket load. (On that note, a black templar player in my meta refuses to play me after I more or less wiped out his entire army while losing nothing of value by turn three)

As for Crons, D&D squads should work well to start breaking up the platform users in preparation for the wraith assault and swarm of fliers dropping off troops every which way while Imotekh ensures you can't shoot straight and Zandrekh plays havoc with special rules you were counting on while giving his own units nice rules.

As for Tau? Probably? Because the TFG Tau players have gotten tabling FW IG lists by turn 2-3 down to a science (it involves riptides, missilesides, markerlights flying out of their butts, and kroot or firewarriors depending on the player. Farsun bomb optional.) And they are absolutely petty about it.

Vendettas with 2 Heavy Bolters wont be firing nearly as effectively at the common infantry units as a Vulture would be.

Your tactics are ignoring the massive amounts of bodies Guard will be fielding to clog up your ability to effectively engage their shooty units. For example, Doom is good... If he lives, he'll also most likely be forced to land in a spot that doesn't allow him to kill off the Artillery platforms.

You need to give your prospective opponents a little bit more credibility. They won't build bad lists that have obvious weaknesses like that.

As Hulksmash said. Some of the FW options are simply better, cheaper versions of units Guard players already take.

 Kain wrote:

As for Tau? Probably? Because the TFG Tau players have gotten tabling FW IG lists by turn 2-3 down to a science (it involves riptides, missilesides, markerlights flying out of their butts, and kroot or firewarriors depending on the player. Farsun bomb optional.) And they are absolutely petty about it.

You are so bitter about Tau that it's actually really funny. (And I'm not saying that in a condescending, "hur hur hur" manner, I'm stating it as that I actually get a chuckle out of it because I frequently get my butt handed to me by Tau players now and I sympathize with you too.)

Automatically Appended Next Post:
His podding zoan tactic also ignores all the interceptor on the sabers with instant kill those models should they happen to fail a 3+ save.

And the 4+ runic weapon shutting down those psychic powers.

 LValx wrote:
Vendettas with 2 Heavy Bolters wont be firing nearly as effectively at the common infantry units as a Vulture would be.

Your tactics are ignoring the massive amounts of bodies Guard will be fielding to clog up your ability to effectively engage their shooty units. For example, Doom is good... If he lives, he'll also most likely be forced to land in a spot that doesn't allow him to kill off the Artillery platforms.

You need to give your prospective opponents a little bit more credibility. They won't build bad lists that have obvious weaknesses like that.

As Hulksmash said. Some of the FW options are simply better, cheaper versions of units Guard players already take.

Never tell a Tyranid player that the other guy has massive numbers, because we have more. Or if we don't right now, we will in a turn or two. I can replace losses with a cheap and already incredibly spammable unit that also scores, he can only replace losses with Chenkov and he can't add to his existing numbers.

And when did I ever insinuate they'd have obvious weaknesses? I'd just crack open their defenses and blast through the gaps or present so many threats they cannot react to any of them effectively.

And unlike most other people, my drop pods can eat stuff. Muahahahaha.

And on a counterpoint to Hulk, many FW options are more expensive worse versions of what you already could have (the Malcador is the incarnation of this, it is bad at every level).

Suggesting banning FW for this is like me suggesting banning Tau because they can ignore cover with any weapon, ignore their mediocre BS, ignore nightfighting, ignore assault, and ignore fliers.

Yeah, FW IG isn't unbeatable, but I think it firmly puts them at the top tied with Tau.

 Enigwolf wrote:

 Kain wrote:

As for Tau? Probably? Because the TFG Tau players have gotten tabling FW IG lists by turn 2-3 down to a science (it involves riptides, missilesides, markerlights flying out of their butts, and kroot or firewarriors depending on the player. Farsun bomb optional.) And they are absolutely petty about it.

You are so bitter about Tau that it's actually really funny. (And I'm not saying that in a condescending, "hur hur hur" manner, I'm stating it as that I actually get a chuckle out of it because I frequently get my butt handed to me by Tau players now and I sympathize with you too.)

Well, Tau isn't as bad of a match up as the GKs for me (mentioning them around me gives me the hives) but they are just...so...soul sucking...to fight against...

So of course my wife has a Tau army. FDJSADNZKDASDHAD

KAIN SMASH PUNY WIFE'S ARMY THAT DOESN'T ASSAULT LIKE MEN!

I play Tyranids too. IG ally well with SWs. That combo is brutal for Nids and it'd be even more so with the addition of Sabres and better artillery.

 LValx wrote:
Yeah, FW IG isn't unbeatable, but I think it firmly puts them at the top tied with Tau.

You're referring to one particular list of FW IG, easily solved by limiting the OP units to 0-1, as opposed to pretty much a dozen and more different combinations and permutations of Tau lists, which can't be resolved by a 0-1 limitation because players won't stand for it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kain wrote:

 Enigwolf wrote:

 Kain wrote:

As for Tau? Probably? Because the TFG Tau players have gotten tabling FW IG lists by turn 2-3 down to a science (it involves riptides, missilesides, markerlights flying out of their butts, and kroot or firewarriors depending on the player. Farsun bomb optional.) And they are absolutely petty about it.

You are so bitter about Tau that it's actually really funny. (And I'm not saying that in a condescending, "hur hur hur" manner, I'm stating it as that I actually get a chuckle out of it because I frequently get my butt handed to me by Tau players now and I sympathize with you too.)

Well, Tau isn't as bad of a match up as the GKs for me (mentioning them around me gives me the hives) but they are just...so...soul sucking...to fight against...

So of course my wife has a Tau army. FDJSADNZKDASDHAD

KAIN SMASH PUNY WIFE'S ARMY THAT DOESN'T ASSAULT LIKE MEN!

Don't expect to see many more GKs in 6th. They don't play well anymore unless allied with Tau () or Eldar. We've been trying to hammer pure GK lists out in the Tactics forum, GK thread - nothing.

 Redbeard wrote:

MVBrandt wrote:
The issue is the large swathe of the majority of GT attendees. MOST of them don't know much about FW,
...
The argument to be had is about familiarity, access, and fairness toward the "Average" guy.

Somehow, this just doesn't feel appropriate for a competitive setting. The NFL doesn't tell RG3 that he can't play because most average players can't keep up with him. The NBA doesn't tell LeBron that he can't play because most average players can't guard him. The World Series of Poker doesn't tell Phil Hellmuth he can't play because the average players can't read him.

Competitive events have no business being governed by how the average player can cope. It might sell tickets, but it's not really establishing who the good players are.

Breng77 wrote:Except you are talking professional events, when there is a pro 40k league I'm with you but I'm pretty sure you're local 30 and over basketball league is going to ask an MBA player not to play because he will roll all the average guys. 40k is much closer to the later an event the consumer pays to play, rather than one where they get paid.

LValx wrote:
Terrible analogy. Those are paid athletes, professionals, who are the very best at what they do. Those organizations also make money due to sales of products, etc, etc. Unfortunately, the GT's are generally paid for by the TOs and sponsers/supporters. They NEED to cater at least somewhat to the majority of their attendees. I'm no TO, but i'm sure Mr. Brandt can delve into further detail on that topic.

Heh. First of all, when you title an event "The US Open", it's considered an open tournament that anyone can attempt to enter. Skill may disqualify many in the early early rounds, and the pros may get passes to skip those rounds, but it's a standard naming convention. Tiger Woods plays in the US Open (golf) and Serena Williams plays in the US Open of Tennis, and so on.

So, if you name your 40k event, "The <something> Open" (whether that be Nova or somewhere else) you're obviously doing it to draw parallels to those events. You're going out of your way to infer a level of competitive play that will be at that event. Cause, really, you don't need to call it the Open, because with the exception of a couple of invitationals, all GT-level events are open.

Ok, so to pick on Mike (MVBrandt) just a wee bit, when a large number of your blog posts and forum posts have to do with how to design your event to be the most competitive, to really determine a winner, to ensure that the event really appeases the competitive spirit that demands knowing who the absolute winner is, it suddenly sounds off to then play to the "average player" for the Forgeworld question.

It's like Hulk said a few posts back, the vast majority of players at GTs aren't there to win and aren't interested in that top-level competitive stuff. And so when it's a question of attendance, all of a sudden it's all about appeasing the average Joe's, who are apparently so weak-spirited that being defeated by Forgeworld will crush all joy from their weekend, while being crushed by Hulk or Yermom or Kopach with normal codex units will allow them to go merrily about their average lives.



Now, I'm not foolish enough to try and run one of these things, and my hat's off to Mike and Matthias and Hank, and all the other organizers who put their time and money on the line for them. Really, it is all about how to make the events successful. But go one way or the other. Either you want top-level competitive 40k, in which case how the average player loses on day one really shouldn't be a question, because it's expected that the casual average player will be playing in the casual average day two bracket. Or you want a casually competitive tournament, in which case all the arguments (from other threads) about how comp is evil, how soft-scores ruin events and so on, should be equally disregarded.

I don't believe that the average player is a weak as everyone is making them out to be. I think they'll be equally devastated (or not, probably not) when they're tabled on turn 3 in the opening game against someone who goes on to day two as they'd be if that player used Forgeworld stuff to do the crushing.

You can pick on me, Red, but the event actually caters to the very things you've posted about wanting to see back in GT's in recent post-AdeptiCon posts. Judge not by the past, which I've rather humbly admitted my failings in on podcasts, forums, etc., but on the present now faced ... your comments have little relevance within that metric. The NOVA provides fair avenues for "top flight" competitors to compete, but the vast majority of the formatting, pairing, scoring, awards, etc., is directly catered to hobbyists and people who want to be able to compete without taking spammy hardcore lists.

You don't have to go one way or the other; to suggest you do is as silly as I was 4 years ago when I thought there was no choice.

This one time, at band camp, I was only just learning how to be inclusive as a TO. Openness, fairness, built on personal failures of a sort

I know my next event allows forgeworld. I am building up and bringing
A mega dread
2 units of grot tanks
Grot mega tank
A forgeworld battle wagon though it is using codex rules
And a fighta bommer

A crap load of forgeworld. Is this going to break the event? No.
The forge world lists for guard might win a few events but they have weakness and people will stop bringing them because the counters will show up.

@Redbeard

You might have missed my point. My lists don't beat people, even bad players, on turn 3. They generally win the last turn of the game. Give me FW and that's likely to change. I very well might start slamming people in turn 3-4 instead. Therefore it could be much less fun.

At that point though for true most competitive why don't we just make it single elimination? After all it does not matter how the guy who loses feels. Even those open events you listed are not open to anyone.

Us open golf tournament requires you to either be a pro, or have a handicap of 1.4 in the usga to attempt qualifying. So more akin to the invite, you need to be among the best players to be able to play.

The tennis open requires membership in the usta, then playing through various qualifiers, so more akin to the nova invite (anyone can play the qualifier) than the open gt.


So if you want to say the invite should not cater to the average player I might be with you. The GT however is much more like say the Walt Disney world marathon, than it is the us open (either one). Anyone can sign up, so long as they pay for it, they cater a lot to the middle of the pack, and they want everyone to have a good time.

I don't want to speak for mike but I have not heard him stating anything about being the most competitive in several years, just about different win tracks, balanced missions and terrain, and running a good convention.

 Hulksmash wrote:
@Redbeard

You might have missed my point. My lists don't beat people, even bad players, on turn 3. They generally win the last turn of the game. Give me FW and that's likely to change. I very well might start slamming people in turn 3-4 instead. Therefore it could be much less fun.

A good IG army will break its opponents by then, FW or not, because if it hasn't, then they've had time to advance into the squishy duuders, and that never ends well for them.

 cvtuttle wrote:

It had over $800.00 worth of FW models in it..

You keep bringing this up - but you realize you can custom make this stuff? You can alter existing GW models, bring in models that aren't from the GW line and with some creativity you can make an appropriate model to represent it.

There is no GW Governing body on what % of your army has to be GW models any more...

Oh, and one more thing Mr. CV Tuttle (if that is your real name), Alan used some models that were close at WGC on a lot of people got their knickers in a twist. You can't please everyone and there is a sub set of both the pro-FW and the anti-FW crowd that wants only FW models.

 Blackmoor wrote:

 cvtuttle wrote:

It had over $800.00 worth of FW models in it..

You keep bringing this up - but you realize you can custom make this stuff? You can alter existing GW models, bring in models that aren't from the GW line and with some creativity you can make an appropriate model to represent it.

There is no GW Governing body on what % of your army has to be GW models any more...

Oh, and one more thing Mr. CV Tuttle (if that is your real name), Alan used some models that were close at WGC on a lot of people got their knickers in a twist. You can't please everyone and there is a sub set of both the pro-FW and the anti-FW crowd that wants only FW models.

Was that the army with the land raider sponsons converted to be Sabre Platforms? I was trying to find out who owns that army to talk about using their pic.

Alan said his Sabres are from Forge World which I think is the best policy... Especially since it is not universally accepted. Personally I would be pissed to have to play versus converted models that count as FW unit(s).