Do we still need forge world in tournament play?

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**RiTides**

Warboss- Once again, I agree with your post almost completely. Well said!

Edit: Quoting due to page rollover:

warboss wrote:
RiTides wrote:

And in that case, I highly doubt the rest of the field would mind a few restrictions that limit the "gamers slapping together rough counts-as conversions to exploit poorly balanced FW rules" from exploiting them. Middle ground, as warboss says so eloquently in the post I quoted above.

Thanks. I've largely stayed out of the discussion because I'm not a tourney gamer at all now (largely because I simply don't play 40k except for maybe once a season at best) but MVBrandt's post surprised and impressed me. I've always been annoyed by the ignorant peripherally related comments that pop up derailing threads about the legality of FW products (as well as the sigs that spout the same crap about not playing "real" 40k if you "house rule" no FW) as they simply ignore the muddled rules on the matter as well as completely go against the reality of life that some imagined moral high ground of "everything FW is legal/overpowered regardless of your view!!" can prevent people from simply NOT playing against you.

The reality is that a blanket denial of FW rules and models does indeed inconvience some gamers who have primarily FW armies built around rules that are largely no different on the power per points scale than what you'd find in a codex.

The reality is that a blanket allowance of FW rules and models does indeed inconvience some gamers who have to play on a very unlevel field against armies made designed specifically to capitalize on a small number of badly balanced and overpowered FW models.

If anything, the "pro unlimited FW" camp (like the anti-comp camp) seems intent on campaigning vocally against any sort of middle ground at events THEY HAVE NO INTENT TO EVER ATTEND... whereas the "anti" FW camp seems content to by and large simply not attend FW allowing events. There is a huge reasonable middle ground that the two positions and coy sigs ignore the existance of. This whole discussion reminds me of a situation with a player in an old RPG campaign of mine that was constantly advocating the allowance of a book from a different D&D universe. He kept talking about how great that universe was and how the diversity of backgrounds, races, and builds would really enhance our campaign. I ended up capitulating and the end effect was not him building a character that took advantage of all that but simply taking a broken feat for his existing character that did something much better than the "core" 3.5 feat he already had access to but didn't choose. For every poor DKOK player out there who just wants to use his models, there are (from my experience) a half dozen people who just want their regular drop pods (or spray painted gatorade bottles) to allow their dreads to charge you on the turn they come in.

There are plenty of things that TOs can do (as well as friendly game players) that don't screw over reasonable players of either type completely. My advice is to simply require the actual FW models (no conversions.. sorry... your spare IG heavy bolter and left over sprue mashup is out) as well as legal physical versions of the most recent FW rules (whether the books or print outs of the free updates from FW to the old books). While that technically only discourages less affluent people who want to (ab)use certain model rules, it nonetheless reasonably requires people to do what they should and gets rid of a significant portion of the (ab)using crowd (like the Dreadnought drop pod represented by a solo cup or regular drop pod). No off-scaled bits conversions with pirated PDF printouts of 1 page. Another reasonable restriction is to limit one FW 40k entry per primary detachment of codex armies (none in allies forces) and require preapproval of FW only armies containing actual FW models (like elysians in an elysian list but not "flying" cadians). A combo of those steps won't unnecessarily inconvience most "fluff" players but will weed out most people (but admittedly not all) or severely limt those who simply want to use the minority of broken items.

There is as stated before a huge middle ground that most friendly games as well as tournies can occupy that is completely ignored by zealots on both sides and I'm glad to see the vast and previously silent middle ground finally pushing back in this thread.

**Relic07**

Requiring the "original FW model" to limit FW is bogus. As long as the model is a well thought out conversion, this should be a non-issue. A big part of the hobby is conversions for a lot of people.
As an example, I don't particularly care for SOME (but not all) of the FW original models. I have made well built conversions that look better IMO.

Another example, I game with a gentleman that took an original drop pod, and did some good conversion work to it to make it look like a luscious. I think such creativity should be applauded.

Exclusions should be "garbage conversions" i.e. Styrofoam cup as luscious, or stock heavy weapons team as Sabre. And pirated books should not be allowed for obvious reasons.

**RiTides**

Agreed that it's all about the quality of the conversion...

However, good forum etiquette is not to quote the exact same quote in the post above yours

**cvtuttle**

kronk wrote:
Forgive the off topic for a minute, but one quick point:

Blackmoor wrote:

Oh, and one more thing Mr. CV Tuttle (if that is your real name),

That's Carl Tuttle from the Independent Characters. He posts on here from time to time. He apparently has KR multicases scattered all over the house and just attended a painting master class with Mr. Justin of Secret Weapon Miniatures.

Now then, back to the thread already in progress.

Alan knows who I am - he's just being silly. And V is my middle name (stands for Vernon.... insert jokes now).

**warboss**

Relic07 wrote:
Requiring the "original FW model" to limit FW is bogus. As long as the model is a well thought out conversion, this should be a non-issue. A big part of the hobby is conversions for a lot of people.
As an example, I don't particularly care for SOME (but not all) of the FW original models. I have made well built conversions that look better IMO.

Another example, I game with a gentleman that took an original drop pod, and did some good conversion work to it to make it look like a luscious. I think such creativity should be applauded.

Exclusions should be "garbage conversions" i.e. Styrofoam cup as luscious, or stock heavy weapons team as Sabre. And pirated books should not be allowed for obvious reasons.

Lucius.

Luscious is how you'd describe rich, creamy ice cream or a woman with thick, red lipstick lips and your example is making me hungry.

Your example is reasonable and fits well within that wide middle range that I mentioned. My requiring the actual model was part of an easy, mostly *objective* clear set of rules that a TO or league could largely apply on the spot. Once you allow some FW conversions, you open up the door to subjectivity and one person's crap conversion is another's favorite piece. I don't have anything against FW conversions and even made an extended cab stormraven using the FW bits and the chapterhouse kit that I alternately use as a stormraven or stormeagle as I made it look like a mini Thunderhawk as much as possible.

**Darkness**

While still on the topic of conversions, the aforementioned sabre platform/quad guns pose another issue here. They were deployed on top of a sky shield. With them being far smaller, this allowed a lot more being crammed on there for 4++

The average gamer has no idea what a sabre platform looks like so will never question this. Now the average gamer has to contend with unfamiliar rules, possibly an unbalancing unit(s) and not knowing that his opponent is MFA . To me that screams bad experience.

**Enigwolf**

Darkness wrote:
While still on the topic of conversions, the aforementioned sabre platform/quad guns pose another issue here. They were deployed on top of a sky shield. With them being far smaller, this allowed a lot more being crammed on there for 4++

The average gamer has no idea what a sabre platform looks like so will never question this. Now the average gamer has to contend with unfamiliar rules, possibly an unbalancing unit(s) and not knowing that his opponent is MFA . To me that screams bad experience.

Why wasn't there any counter-checking for MFA?

**Darkness**

Thats not an easy task considering an event that large. They may have been approved, or not needed it per the event, or the player may have not known.

MFA is not usually an issue as we all know what virtually every model in GW's range looks like. But with FW, a lot of players do not.

**Enigwolf**

Darkness wrote:
Thats not an easy task considering an event that large. They may have been approved, or not needed it per the event, or the player may have not known.

MFA is not usually an issue as we all know what virtually every model in GW's range looks like. But with FW, a lot of players do not.

Is it that hard to just pull up the Forgeworld page...?

**RiTides**

It's hard to tell scale on a lot of pics on the FW page. I have 3 FW Iron Daemons for chaos dwarfs... amazing models, but tiny compared to what I thought they were! (there is no scale shot on that page)

I'm sure the opposite could also be true for some units. Saying the actual model must be used is another compromise / way to limit abuse. Not saying it's perfect, but I can see the reasoning behind it.

**MVBrandt**

Enigwolf wrote:
Darkness wrote:
Thats not an easy task considering an event that large. They may have been approved, or not needed it per the event, or the player may have not known.

MFA is not usually an issue as we all know what virtually every model in GW's range looks like. But with FW, a lot of players do not.

Is it that hard to just pull up the Forgeworld page...?

Not everyone has smart phones.

**Dozer Blades**

Breng77 wrote:
Because FW is not included in the events he plays. I don't think he has an issue with separate FW events

Team tourney allows it.

**Breng77**

did he play in it? I thought he only played the Championships, which is NO FW.

**Relic07**

Darkness wrote:
While still on the topic of conversions, the aforementioned sabre platform/quad guns pose another issue here. They were deployed on top of a sky shield. With them being far smaller, this allowed a lot more being crammed on there for 4++

The average gamer has no idea what a sabre platform looks like so will never question this. Now the average gamer has to contend with unfamiliar rules, possibly an unbalancing unit(s) and not knowing that his opponent is MFA . To me that screams bad experience.

Sabre platform is on a 60mm base. Technically, any Sabre platform conversion would also need to be on a 60mm base. Any smaller, and you are modeling for advantage.

**Dozer Blades**

Breng77 wrote:
did he play in it? I thought he only played the Championships, which is NO FW.

He has been playing in the TT for over five years. Janthkin and Yakface are on his team too.

**Blackmoor**

Dozer Blades wrote:
Breng77 wrote:
did he play in it? I thought he only played the Championships, which is NO FW.

He has been playing in the TT for over five years. Janthkin and Yakface are on his team too.

I have been playing in the Team Tournament for well over five years, and up until last year played in the Gladiator as well (i am getting to old for 13 games in a weekend). Several years ago with the 3.5 Chaos Codex the Iron Warrors could take 4 heavy support choices (and super heavys took up 2 HS slots) I played against an army with 2 warhound titans.

**Relic07**

Blackmoor wrote:
Dozer Blades wrote:
Breng77 wrote:
did he play in it? I thought he only played the Championships, which is NO FW.

He has been playing in the TT for over five years. Janthkin and Yakface are on his team too.

I have been playing in the Team Tournament for well over five years, and up until last year played in the Gladiator as well (i am getting to old for 13 games in a weekend). Several years ago with the 3.5 Chaos Codex the Iron Warrors could take 4 heavy support choices (and super heavys took up 2 HS slots) I played against an army with 2 warhound titans.

Don't feel bad about that Blackmoor. I am also getting older, and am one of the oldest players in my area, but routinely destroy all the young studs. Remember, old age and treachery beats youth and skill every time.

It may be time to cut back on all of the traveling around and trying to fit too much 40K in a weekend. Kick back, paint some more, enjoy life a bit. Get yourself a nice woman to occupy your time. You don't have anything left
to prove with your tournament record.

**RiTides**

Relic, please don't be so passive aggressive. Blackmoor has no more need of advice on what to do with his life from you than you do from him. Please, if you have an axe to grind, take it to PM!

Also Blackmoor, I did not realize you played in the Gladiator. I assume that's where you faced the warhound titans... pretty cool! I also assume this means your stance on FW is that you don't mind it / actually enjoy it in a dedicated event? I did not realize that... but it's always great to see that things in this debate are not as black and white as they first apppear on the surface

Not to mention that, as Dozer Blades points out, Blackmoor shares an AdeptiCon team tournament squad with yakface, a big proponent of FW in events. So we can all get along, after all

and thrive, even! (I believe last year they placed in the top 3 or 5 for pure battle points in the TT, although did not fare as well in the overall rankings).

**Dozer Blades**

It was funny... Just saying.

**CaptKaruthors**

Dental plan...Lisa needs braces...

**Enigwolf**

CaptKaruthors wrote:
Dental plan...Lisa needs braces...

I feel like that's the hundredth time this quote has been used in this thread.

**Blackmoor**

I am all for choices. I also think it is a great compromise to have apocalypse events and narrative events that allow FW to run concurrently with tournaments that do not allow FW. Whatever floats your boat, go ahead and get your hobby on.

I am also not as hard line about FW as some seem to think. If Carl wants to bring Zhufor or some of the other choices I am all for it.

The problem is that most tournament players do not worry about whether or not their opponent is having fun. They are there to compete, and to them their winning is fun. So they will not take the Wraithseers, the Plague Drones, and the other interesting units to play with, but they will just load up on IG artillery and Vultures.

In a perfect world I would like to see tournaments with a banned list, but here is the problem.
#1. Tournaments all seem to be all 40k approved FW or no FW.
#2. There is a loud minority who oppose any banned list and do not want to compromise.
#3. No one can agree on what should, or should not be banned.

Because of those problems above my pragmatic response is to campaign for no FW. Since all there is right now is black or white I have to choose a side .

**RiTides**

Fair points, Blackmoor... but I personally think I have seen compromise in this thread, and particularly the organizers of Nova and AdeptiCon do not view it as "black and white" from their posts here (from what I've seen). So, I'm optimistic on the compromise front

**Relic07**

RiTides wrote:
Relic, please don't be so passive aggressive. Blackmoor has no more need of advice on what to do with his life from you than you do from him. Please, if you have an axe to grind, take it to PM!

Also Blackmoor, I did not realize you played in the Gladiator. I assume that's where you faced the warhound titans... pretty cool! I also assume this means your stance on FW is that you don't mind it / actually enjoy it in a dedicated event? I did not realize that... but it's always great to see that things in this debate are not as black and white as they first apppear on the surface

Not to mention that, as Dozer Blades points out, Blackmoor shares an AdeptiCon team tournament squad with yakface, a big proponent of FW in events. So we can all get along, after all and thrive, even! (I believe last year they placed in the top 3 or 5 for pure battle points in the TT, although did not fare as well in the overall rankings).

What's wrong with trying to help another gamer out?

I just think a man needs more in his life than spending all time and resources on a game of toy soldiers. Constantly traveling around the country year in and year out, little to no sex, sleeping in hotel rooms night after night, etc.
It is going to take it's toll on your physical and mental health. The game is supposed to be a hobby not a lifestyle.

I used to play paintball & brazilian jiu-jitsu competitively, and got out of the traveling tournament scene for these various reasons. I saw too many of my teammates wreck their lives and finances, for little to no gain.

It's all about balance sir.

**pretre**

That's a lot of assumptions! Yikes.

**Relic07**

pretre wrote:
That's a lot of assumptions! Yikes.

Well, I am not the only one that is worried.

The 40K community is a pretty tight bunch (except for a few bad apples).

**Vaktathi**

if most tournament players at big events are there to compete and don't care about their opponents fun, then what difference is it if it's FW units and IG armies that are ascendant as opposed to say, Tau gunlines or Necrons? The show remains the same, just with different actors. If these players are there just to win, what's the point of banning anything?

Hell, we don't even know it'll turn out the way many are doomsaying it will, just supposition.

**Relic07**

I agree. When I play in a tournament I am definitely there to win, but I don't like my opponents to have a bad game. The last thing the game needs
is another person quitting because they thought the players at the tournament where aholes, or he got humiliated.

**RiTides**

*Sigh* This was actually a useful thread. Unfortunately, Relic, your flamebaiting is making it much less so. Again, posts like the above few only weaken whatever argument you were trying to make.

It's unfortunate that you're unwilling to stop with the text-based barbs and engage in a meaningful discussion. I tried asking nicely... but I'll stop feeding you, now.

**krootman.**

Relic07 wrote:
RiTides wrote:
Relic, please don't be so passive aggressive. Blackmoor has no more need of advice on what to do with his life from you than you do from him. Please, if you have an axe to grind, take it to PM!

Also Blackmoor, I did not realize you played in the Gladiator. I assume that's where you faced the warhound titans... pretty cool! I also assume this means your stance on FW is that you don't mind it / actually enjoy it in a dedicated event? I did not realize that... but it's always great to see that things in this debate are not as black and white as they first apppear on the surface

Not to mention that, as Dozer Blades points out, Blackmoor shares an AdeptiCon team tournament squad with yakface, a big proponent of FW in events. So we can all get along, after all and thrive, even! (I believe last year they placed in the top 3 or 5 for pure battle points in the TT, although did not fare as well in the overall rankings).

What's wrong with trying to help another gamer out?

I just think a man needs more in his life than spending all time and resources on a game of toy soldiers. Constantly traveling around the country year in and year out, little to no sex, sleeping in hotel rooms night after night, etc.
It is going to take it's toll on your physical and mental health. The game is supposed to be a hobby not a lifestyle.

I used to play paintball & brazilian jiu-jitsu competitively, and got out of the traveling tournament scene for these various reasons. I saw too many of my teammates wreck their lives and finances, for little to no gain.

It's all about balance sir.

Alot of insults and epeen stroking in one post :( completely unnecessary.