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To the TOs out there who have dealt with this issue- do you ever factor in, even without realizing it, that you ban FW from your tournaments when a gaming store that doesn't sell the models or rules is hosting the tournament? Has a game store owner ever inquired about the possibility of there being units on display at a tournament in his store that he won't be able to sell?

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Placing some limitations on choices would help to make FW more accepted. Players then would have a much lesser number of units to contend with in terms of preparation. I think this is the right approach.

In an ideal world, I agree. I'm surprised to see you post this! But as we've seen so far, TOs currently seem to find 0-1 restrictions less controversial... It will be interesting to see if that could migrate at all. "No FW artillery" doesn't pick on too individual of a unit, and lets someone bring 2 Blight Drones if they wish.

Re: Blood Angels allying with Space Marines- I don't think anyone minds my BA allying with anything in this edition . So nerfed!

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
I think my biggest issue with the fw army lists is that they are allowed to ally with basically their own codex. Which can lead to spamming and abuse. Were I to allow them in an event I was running it might very well be with a rule disallowing allying with their parent dex.

As long as you keep different Space Marine books (BT, DA, BA, etc) from allying with Codex: Space Marines, then that follows I guess. But if you aren't going to keep Codex: Blood Angels from allying with Codex: Space Marines (lists which are identical in all but very few ways) then I don't understand why allying between the Forge World list and it's closest relative is.

By the way, they aren't "parent dexes." The Forge World army lists stand alone.

As for them not being "Parent Dexes" I beg to differ
Ork Dread Mob army list
"In order to use this army list you will need a copy of the Ork Codex"

Elysian Drop Troops

Look at the special rules of many units and you will see the text "See Imperial Guard Codex"

Again indicating you need an IG codex to use the list.

This is not true for a regular codex army.

Allowing these lists to ally with the "parent codex", allows you to even further spam some of the percieved broken units. If we Ban those broken units (or restrict them to 0-1 choices) Then I have no issue including these lists with no restriction.

Does the IA 8 Elysian list have that? (don't have my book in front of me). I know the DKoK Siege Regiment does not.

That said, largely that just means they aren't copy-pasting what's identical from the codex book. Functionally it doesn't make it any different than the SM book (which copy-past almost all of their vehicle and wargear rules from each other in addition to numerous common units and the like), it just means it's not reprinting those rules there.

 Bobthehero wrote:
On the other hand you can pile up Thudd guns and Heavy Arty carriages and give them FNP with the Quartermaster

You can only give a single unit within 2" of of the quartermaster unit FNP once per turn in a Siege Regiment, and only if the Quarter is not in CC or dead. the Quartmaster unit is also exceedingly easy to remove by itself being just 4 T3 5+sv models . In an Assault Brigade it gives anything within 6" FNP, but only FNP 6+ and has one fewer servitor and is more expensive (and that list can't take the heavy artillery).

 Oaka wrote:
To the TOs out there who have dealt with this issue- do you ever factor in, even without realizing it, that you ban FW from your tournaments when a gaming store that doesn't sell the models or rules is hosting the tournament? Has a game store owner ever inquired about the possibility of there being units on display at a tournament in his store that he won't be able to sell?

This is not an issue for us at AdeptiCon, since Forge World is an onsite vendor.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Does the IA 8 Elysian list have that? (don't have my book in front of me). I know the DKoK Siege Regiment does not.

Is the type of list in IA8 different significantly in style from the IA3 elysian list or are they both fully airborne IG lists? If so, it illustrates a bit of an issue in that the IA3 2nd edition book is the "newer" one and by most FW tourney standards the one you'd be required to use.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Does the IA 8 Elysian list have that? (don't have my book in front of me). I know the DKoK Siege Regiment does not.

That said, largely that just means they aren't copy-pasting what's identical from the codex book. Functionally it doesn't make it any different than the SM book (which copy-past almost all of their vehicle and wargear rules from each other in addition to numerous common units and the like), it just means it's not reprinting those rules there.

[

Yes the IA 8 list is the one that has those rules.NOt sure about others I would have to check.

I just like the chaos dwarfs and the book they put out so I can use them ; )

 RiTides wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Placing some limitations on choices would help to make FW more accepted. Players then would have a much lesser number of units to contend with in terms of preparation. I think this is the right approach.

In an ideal world, I agree. I'm surprised to see you post this! But as we've seen so far, TOs currently seem to find 0-1 restrictions less controversial... It will be interesting to see if that could migrate at all. "No FW artillery" doesn't pick on too individual of a unit, and lets someone bring 2 Blight Drones if they wish.

Re: Blood Angels allying with Space Marines- I don't think anyone minds my BA allying with anything in this edition . So nerfed!

AdeptiCon has gone through several versions of Forge World inclusion over the years. in 2008 we allowed FW units in the 40K Invitational, 40K Championships and 40K Team Tournament:

Forge World Imperial Armor units (but not army lists) may be used with the following exceptions: Flyers, Super Heavies, Super Heavy Fliers, and Gargantuan Creatures are NOT allowed. The actual ForgeWorld models must be used along with the latest Imperial Armor rules (including Imperial Armour Apocalypse and it's associated ForgeWorld FAQ) with one exception: Space Marine Drop Pods will use the standard GW Codex rules. Failure to use the most current rules will result in losses for all games played using incorrect rules. It is your responsibility as a player using ForgeWorld to know what the most recent rules are. Additionally, you must bring a copy of the latest rules for each of your opponents to review.

In 2009 and 2010 we banned them outright from the 40K Championships and 40K Invitational, but they were unrestricted in the 40K Team Tournament and 40K Gladiator:

Championships/Invitational: Forge World/Imperial Armor units are not allowed in the 40K Championships, however players may still use their Forge World models to represent a unit from their codex.

Team Tournament: Imperial Armor & Apocalypse units (but not army lists) may be used following the rules and restrictions as noted in the
AdeptiCon 2010 Imperial Armor & Apocalypse Units rules.

In 2011, they were banned outright from the 40K Championships and teams were limited one single unit in the 40K Team Tournament:

Championships: Forge World/Imperial Armor units are NOT allowed in the Warhammer 40K Championships; however players may still use their Forge
World models to represent a unit from their codex.

Team Tournament: Each team may field a maximum of one Imperial Armor/Apocalypse unit (see below) following the rules and restrictions as
noted in the AdeptiCon 2011 Allowable Imperial Armor & Apocalypse Units rules. Units allowed in this event will have ‘TT’
noted in the Event column.

In 2012 we finally settled on a happy medium for both events and introduced an easy to implement rule for FW inclusion that has been since adopted by a few other large events like The NOVA Open:

Championships: Forge World/Imperial Armor units are NOT allowed in the Warhammer 40K Championships; however players may still use their Forge
World models to represent a unit from their codex.

Team Tournament: Forge World/Imperial Armor units are allowed in the Warhammer 40K Team Tournament, however due to the scarce nature of
these units, each unit is considered unique (0-1) and may only be taken once per Team. Units must follow the rules and
restrictions as noted in the AdeptiCon 2012 Allowable Imperial Armor & Apocalypse Units rules. Units allowed in this event will
have ‘TT’ noted in the Event column. In ALL cases, only the most current published rules for any particular Imperial Armor /
Apocalypse unit will be allowed. Please consult the list above for reference on which publication contains the most current
rules for each particular unit.

We continued this format in 2013 and will most likely do so going forward.

In 2013, we ran the following 40K events, hoping to appeal to all manner of players:

No Forge World Units Allowed
Warhammer 40K Championships
Warhammer 40K Youngbloods Tournament
Warhammer 40K Combat Patrol
Horus Heresy - Betrayal

Limited Forge World Units (0-1 Unique) Allowed
Warhammer 40K Team Tournament
Warhammer 40K: The Friendly 2013 (It's One Louder)
Zone Mortalis: The Sin of Alacrity - Boarding Action

Limited Forge World Units - up to 1 unit with the 40K Approved Stamp
Warhammer 40K Warzone Tournament

Unlimited Forge World Units Allowed
Warhammer 40K Gladiator

So it is pretty obvious that attendee surveys don't have much value 18-24 months down the road and the will of the players changes over the years as the game peaks and troughs. I firmly believe there is no One System to Rule them All. The game is in a constant state of flux and the player base is constantly shifting. This is why I firmly believe that the style of play should not be dictated by those winning said events, but through careful consideration of the current state of the game and player base from as neutral of a position as possible. Good players will always be good players, regardless of the format. Will we always get it right? Of course not, looking at the evolution of Forge World inclusion at AdeptiCon above it is obvious it took us awhile to find our footing. Our answer has been to provide a smorgasbord of 40K events and let players pick and choose their style of play instead of claiming one event/format can fulfill everyone's wishes and desires. Of course this is a luxury that some events do not have do to space, size and timing constraints, so I am not saying AdeptiCon's way works for anyone but us, although larger events like Wargames Con and the NOVA Open have followed a similar path with success.

 Matthias wrote:


No Forge World Units Allowed
Warhammer 40K Championships
Warhammer 40K Youngbloods Tournament
Warhammer 40K Combat Patrol
Horus Heresy - Betrayal

Thanks for the detailed rundown through the years (not being sarcastic in case it sounds it). I'm not sure if the above italicized part is a typo as it's a FW scenario book with FW only units making up parts of every list.

 Blackmoor wrote:
I was about to say that TOs are motivated by money, so one way or another they will do whatever will make them the most of it (either allowing FW or not).

This also influences their modeling policy. They might write something strict, but when it comes time to turnimg someone away because of their poor "counts-as" it will not happen.

I am sorry you feel this way, but it is woefully offbase. As an example - AdeptiCon sold out both the 40K Championships (with a 40+ person wait list) and the 40K Team Tournament this year before the event rules were even released.. Looking at the flux of Forge World inclusion over the back 5 years, how could anyone have known exactly what would and would not be allowed? Our inclusion of FW has nothing to do with selling tickets and taking your money - it has everything to do with trying to craft the best event possible for a majority of out attendees.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 warboss wrote:
Thanks for the detailed rundown through the years (not being sarcastic in case it sounds it). I'm not sure if the above italicized part is a typo as it's a FW scenario book with FW only units making up parts of every list.

That was a 30K-specific event, but FW units outside standard codices and the Betrayal book were not allowed:

- Armies will consist of 1500 points or less, using the standard Force Organization Chart from the Horus Heresy Betrayal book.
- Forge World/Imperial Armor units are NOT allowed in the Horus Heresy – Betrayal tournament; however players may still use their Forge World models to represent a unit from their codex.
- Primarchs and any Super-Heavy units from the Horus Heresy Betrayal book are NOT allowed in the Horus Heresy - Betrayal tournament.

 Matthias wrote:
In 2011, they were banned outright from the 40K Championships and teams were limited one single unit in the 40K Team Tournament:

Championships: Forge World/Imperial Armor units are NOT allowed in the Warhammer 40K Championships; however players may still use their Forge
World models to represent a unit from their codex.

Team Tournament: Each team may field a maximum of one Imperial Armor/Apocalypse unit (see below) following the rules and restrictions as
noted in the AdeptiCon 2011 Allowable Imperial Armor & Apocalypse Units rules. Units allowed in this event will have ‘TT’
noted in the Event column.

In 2012 we finally settled on a happy medium for both events and introduced an easy to implement rule for FW inclusion that has been since adopted by a few other large events like The NOVA Open:

Championships: Forge World/Imperial Armor units are NOT allowed in the Warhammer 40K Championships; however players may still use their Forge
World models to represent a unit from their codex.

Team Tournament: Forge World/Imperial Armor units are allowed in the Warhammer 40K Team Tournament, however due to the scarce nature of
these units, each unit is considered unique (0-1) and may only be taken once per Team. Units must follow the rules and
restrictions as noted in the AdeptiCon 2012 Allowable Imperial Armor & Apocalypse Units rules. Units allowed in this event will
have ‘TT’ noted in the Event column. In ALL cases, only the most current published rules for any particular Imperial Armor /
Apocalypse unit will be allowed. Please consult the list above for reference on which publication contains the most current
rules for each particular unit.

We continued this format in 2013 and will most likely do so going forward.

You quoted my post but seem to be confirming what I said, that 0-1 or "unique" restriction has come to be, as you say, a "happy medium / easy to implement" solution that several of the major TOs have settled on for some events.

I quite like this solution- my only hesitation is that I wish there could be an exception, in certain events, for full FW-army-lists. But as you have events that allow unlimited FW, even those folks have events to participate in.

So, I am a big fan of AdeptiCon's (and now Nova's) solutions to this

 RiTides wrote:
You quoted my post but seem to be confirming what I said, that 0-1 or "unique" restriction has come to be, as you say, a "happy medium / easy to implement" solution that several of the major TOs have settled on for some events.

I quite like this solution- my only hesitation is that I wish there could be an exception, in certain events, for full FW-army-lists. But as you have events that allow unlimited FW, even those folks have events to participate in.

So, I am a big fan of AdeptiCon's (and now Nova's) solutions to this

Wasn't meant to refute anything you have said - more just a historical timeline of how we got there with some commentary aimed at the thread in general.

The timeline is extremely useful! And, as stated, I really like the endpoint of it / the current compromise that you have arrived at for AdeptiCon

 Matthias wrote:

 Blackmoor wrote:
I was about to say that TOs are motivated by money, so one way or another they will do whatever will make them the most of it (either allowing FW or not).

This also influences their modeling policy. They might write something strict, but when it comes time to turnimg someone away because of their poor "counts-as" it will not happen.

I am sorry you feel this way, but it is woefully offbase. As an example - AdeptiCon sold out both the 40K Championships (with a 40+ person wait list) and the 40K Team Tournament this year before the event rules were even released.. Looking at the flux of Forge World inclusion over the back 5 years, how could anyone have known exactly what would and would not be allowed? Our inclusion of FW has nothing to do with selling tickets and taking your money - it has everything to do with trying to craft the best event possible for a majority of out attendees.

Matt, I was not talking about Adepticon. You guys have worked hard to build it up into an event that is quite unique.

I was talking about the mid-sized touraments (which 90% of them are) that are around 32-64 people range who are struggling to sell tickets. They want to sell as many seats as they can and do not want to turn anyone away, or anger anyone.

Breng77 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
I think my biggest issue with the fw army lists is that they are allowed to ally with basically their own codex. Which can lead to spamming and abuse. Were I to allow them in an event I was running it might very well be with a rule disallowing allying with their parent dex.

As long as you keep different Space Marine books (BT, DA, BA, etc) from allying with Codex: Space Marines, then that follows I guess. But if you aren't going to keep Codex: Blood Angels from allying with Codex: Space Marines (lists which are identical in all but very few ways) then I don't understand why allying between the Forge World list and it's closest relative is.

By the way, they aren't "parent dexes." The Forge World army lists stand alone.

As for them not being "Parent Dexes" I beg to differ
Ork Dread Mob army list
"In order to use this army list you will need a copy of the Ork Codex"

Elysian Drop Troops

Look at the special rules of many units and you will see the text "See Imperial Guard Codex"

Again indicating you need an IG codex to use the list.

This is not true for a regular codex army.

Allowing these lists to ally with the "parent codex", allows you to even further spam some of the percieved broken units. If we Ban those broken units (or restrict them to 0-1 choices) Then I have no issue including these lists with no restriction.

How is this reliance on Parent Codex any different from the Iyanden Supplement?

Iyanden Eldar cannot go and ally with Codex: Eldar. In a lot of cases I can see these alternate lists being used as a way to get more of the same broken units through using allies.

I have stated this prior, but really I think if FW is going to be allowed in any capacity, then it should be done whole hog but only in formats with significant comp scores implemented in them. If some guy wants to roll out his themed mech guard with a bunch of towing vehicles or their Ork mech list with multiple Megadreads, they should have that option but the guy who rolls in with a wall of IG/SM artillery pieces should be playing for best general and almost nothing else.

Having said that, I know how the crowd is out here and I am busily assembling and painting 6 Sabres to add to my IG army, because that's the 40k mentality these days.

For whoever mentioned Fantasy as a comparison, the Fantasy books are getting much more balanced, but there are still controversial items in the new books, though rare, that get banned by some events and clubs. That ban list for most groups is as small as it has been in years, however, and the inclusion of soft scores (outside of the Northeast US who treat soft scores like the devil) has kept the field very diverse at all levels. I wish 40k would go back to something a little more like that, but its pretty much been taken over by the warmachine mentality, which works for that game because they do constant balance tweaks.

I live in the northeast US so unfortunately don't see that same variety in fantasy. I'm hoping the core rules will take some cues from 6th ed 40k and be able to be balanced without the need for as much comp /soft scores... that's a dream that won't be determined for a few years yet when the next edition hits, though.

 Phazael wrote:
I have stated this prior, but really I think if FW is going to be allowed in any capacity, then it should be done whole hog but only in formats with significant comp scores implemented in them. If some guy wants to roll out his themed mech guard with a bunch of towing vehicles or their Ork mech list with multiple Megadreads, they should have that option but the guy who rolls in with a wall of IG/SM artillery pieces should be playing for best general and almost nothing else.

To be fair, there are lists where artilllery is perfectly fluffy. My DKoK assault brigade runs 7 rapiers, 4 heavy mortars and a quad gun, for a total of 12 artillery models, but nobody would think that that's out of character for the army.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Phazael wrote:
I have stated this prior, but really I think if FW is going to be allowed in any capacity, then it should be done whole hog but only in formats with significant comp scores implemented in them. If some guy wants to roll out his themed mech guard with a bunch of towing vehicles or their Ork mech list with multiple Megadreads, they should have that option but the guy who rolls in with a wall of IG/SM artillery pieces should be playing for best general and almost nothing else.

To be fair, there are lists where artilllery is perfectly fluffy. My DKoK assault brigade runs 7 rapiers, 4 heavy mortars and a quad gun, for a total of 12 artillery models, but nobody would think that that's out of character for the army.

Comp has nothing to do with theme. It is based on the power of the army (or at least that is the way it should work).

 Blackmoor wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Phazael wrote:
I have stated this prior, but really I think if FW is going to be allowed in any capacity, then it should be done whole hog but only in formats with significant comp scores implemented in them. If some guy wants to roll out his themed mech guard with a bunch of towing vehicles or their Ork mech list with multiple Megadreads, they should have that option but the guy who rolls in with a wall of IG/SM artillery pieces should be playing for best general and almost nothing else.

To be fair, there are lists where artilllery is perfectly fluffy. My DKoK assault brigade runs 7 rapiers, 4 heavy mortars and a quad gun, for a total of 12 artillery models, but nobody would think that that's out of character for the army.

Comp has nothing to do with theme. It is based on the power of the army (or at least that is the way it should work).

So in order to include FW, we need to bring back comp?

 Matthias wrote:

 Oaka wrote:
To the TOs out there who have dealt with this issue- do you ever factor in, even without realizing it, that you ban FW from your tournaments when a gaming store that doesn't sell the models or rules is hosting the tournament? Has a game store owner ever inquired about the possibility of there being units on display at a tournament in his store that he won't be able to sell?

This is not an issue for us at AdeptiCon, since Forge World is an onsite vendor.

Post of this thread FTW!!!

Exalt!

I'm trying to think of any books, with no form of skyfire whatsoever at this stage. I think it's

-Dark eldar
-Sisters of battle.

Each of those 3, can ally with great anti-air armies, namely, eldar, and guard.

So, every army in the game, has access to anti air, either through skyfire, or their own flyers.

Dark Eldar have flyers and therefore have skyfire.

 Enigwolf wrote:


So in order to include FW, we need to bring back comp?

Talk about a lose-lose situation...

 Hulksmash wrote:
Dark Eldar have flyers and therefore have skyfire.

So, it's just Sisters then. And they've got bigger problems...!

 Enigwolf wrote:
So in order to include FW, we need to bring back comp?

You mean use a different form of comp. Banning FW units because some of them are overpowered is just as much of a comp system as banning/restricting some of them because they're overpowered.

I played in a tournament today. It allowed 1 FW unit in 1500 points.

My first round opponent used a contemptor dread. He asked if I knew what it did, and I thought I did, but was wrong, and didn't realize that its assault cannons got more shots, so I flew a daemon prince into its range and watched it die.

Based on this, I've changed my opinion on FW in tournaments. FW units clearly have no place in any tournament setting and should be left at home on the shelf at all times.

 Redbeard wrote:
I played in a tournament today. It allowed 1 FW unit in 1500 points.

My first round opponent used a contemptor dread. He asked if I knew what it did...

Sounds like a perfect tournament setup, and a great opponent, to me . Here's to limited FW allowance!