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I keep laughing every time I read a post about tournament organizers making money.

Hey if you could I think some people would do it as a job. But we don't see that so.....

The only 'profits' I've seen TOs take from tournaments is to use any excess money to buy more terrain and tables for future events. So hardly profit.

Edit: Somehow a parenthesis made it into my post...

I wasn't saying the TOs profit off of it - I've known for some time that they don't actually end up with any more money than they deserve, and usually less.

However, that doesn't change the fact that I will be paying money for a tournament and could be turned away based on army choice alone regardless of anything else. I understand I should read the rules first and just not pay, but then I limit myself to very few events, many of which are very far away.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I wasn't saying the TOs profit off of it - I've known for some time that they don't actually end up with any more money than they deserve, and usually less.

However, that doesn't change the fact that I will be paying money for a tournament and could be turned away based on army choice alone regardless of anything else. I understand I should read the rules first and just not pay, but then I limit myself to very few events, many of which are very far away.

Don't end up with any more money than they deserve? So most deserve nothing? Just asking. Sure you are paying money for a tournament, and it is totally your choice which events to attend. But that holds true for any number of decisions made:

Mission design
Army Choice/Comp
Point level
FAQ rulings
Monetary Cost
Schedule


For my events it is fully advertised what will and will not be allowed, what missions will be played, points level, round length....etc

If you fail to read the description and show up, and pay, then are pissed off because you don't like how I decide to organize an event (you are free to be pissed off at me if I am a jerk to you for some reason), that is on you. It's equivalent to buying a Chaos Space Marine box, and then being mad because there are only 10 models in it and not 20. Now if you think the price is too high to buy 10 you simply don't buy them.

I (and others I'm sure) regularly poll players who attend my events, and modify things to meet their needs/desires. So if the entire player base is either anti-FW (i.e. will not show up if I include it) or indifferent to it. What as a TO makes me try to give up players I have that are enjoying themselves for theoretical players that may or may not show up if I change my event.

My argument to you would be if you live in an area where most events are Non-FW and you want to play those events, then you should own enough models or counts as, to play non-FW. Otherwise it is like buying a regular bowling ball and being mad when the only lanes around are Duck pin. Actually it always surprises me when this is the case. Why invest so much in FW if most people around you seemingly don't use it? Or if they do use it, why don't they move to get it included in tournaments if they are at all numerous.

Actually there is another solution, if you don't like the way events are run, then start running your own.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I wasn't saying the TOs profit off of it - I've known for some time that they don't actually end up with any more money than they deserve, and usually less.

To that, I have this to quote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Logistics for a TO is ultimately a wash, as the tournament entry fee ought to compensate him for any labor or time that he spends which he deems is unnecessary - we are paying him to give us a good experience, and "it's too hard" isn't an excuse I accept from people I pay to do things.

I don't see how much more unclear you were. In fact, you were very clear in your opinions (bolded and underlined thrice above) that you thought that TOs were actually paid, compensated, and profit off of the entry fee. Please don't change your argument/stance because you were wrong. Own up to the fact that you were wrong.

Unit- While very true, if you've been playing in tournaments for some time you'll know to ask about FW allowance. The very first thing I did when considering tournies with my chaos dwarfs was to ask if the Tamurkhan book was allowed.

Fortunately, the answer every time I have asked that has been "yes". But it never occurred to me, and wouldn't to any of the regular tourney players that I know, to assume it'd be allowed and not to ask.

 RiTides wrote:
Unit- While very true, if you've been playing in tournaments for some time you'll know to ask about FW allowance. The very first thing I did when considering tournies with my chaos dwarfs was to ask if the Tamurkhan book was allowed.

Fortunately, the answer every time I have asked that has been "yes". But it never occurred to me, and wouldn't to any of the regular tourney players that I know, to assume it'd be allowed and not to ask.

The only reason I would think it would be allowed without asking is the same reason to expect vehicles would be allowed without asking, or Codex: Dark Angels - they're all part of the core rules.

As for everything else:
It seems to me that if the TOs feel they are underpaid, then they can and should raise the prices. We're all good capitalists here.

Whether TO's make money or not - based on the amount of work I see them do - their hourly pay is utter crap....

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 RiTides wrote:
Unit- While very true, if you've been playing in tournaments for some time you'll know to ask about FW allowance. The very first thing I did when considering tournies with my chaos dwarfs was to ask if the Tamurkhan book was allowed.

Fortunately, the answer every time I have asked that has been "yes". But it never occurred to me, and wouldn't to any of the regular tourney players that I know, to assume it'd be allowed and not to ask.

The only reason I would think it would be allowed without asking is the same reason to expect vehicles would be allowed without asking, or Codex: Dark Angels - they're all part of the core rules.

As for everything else:
It seems to me that if the TOs feel they are underpaid, then they can and should raise the prices. We're all good capitalists here.

Except no one does it to make money. Furthermore, No one could afford what it would cost to pay me enough to run a tournament if I cared about the money.I have no issue being a volunteer and sinking my money into an event to improve it. What I don't like is ungrateful people who have no idea what their talking about complaining about how things are run because the " Pay for it" Most tournaments function as advertised, and you get what was advertised.

As to FW being part of the core game, that was covered pages ago, its not. The core game is BRB + Codex, FW is an expansion of the core rules (read not needed to actually play the game, and largely non-functional without the base codices. IA book is not equal to a codex (it's not a codex) nor is it equal to the BRB. That does not mean it is not part of the game, or inherently should be disallowed. But in many cases it is not, and so if you follow tournaments at all you would know that it is not always included and perhaps you should ask.

Breng77 wrote:
Except no one does it to make money. Furthermore, No one could afford what it would cost to pay me enough to run a tournament if I cared about the money.I have no issue being a volunteer and sinking my money into an event to improve it. What I don't like is ungrateful people who have no idea what their talking about complaining about how things are run because the " Pay for it" Most tournaments function as advertised, and you get what was advertised.

As to FW being part of the core game, that was covered pages ago, its not. The core game is BRB + Codex, FW is an expansion of the core rules (read not needed to actually play the game, and largely non-functional without the base codices. IA book is not equal to a codex (it's not a codex) nor is it equal to the BRB. That does not mean it is not part of the game, or inherently should be disallowed. But in many cases it is not, and so if you follow tournaments at all you would know that it is not always included and perhaps you should ask.

If you don't do it to make money, then why bring up that "it takes too much time and effort" on the part of the TO to include Forge World? If they think it takes too much effort to go through the 40k rules and make sure they understand them, then perhaps they've bit off more than they can chew.

As for your second point, where does it say the core game is BRB + codex? And where does it say that things cannot be added that aren't in the BRB or codex? Because it says right in the front of the FW books that they should be considered official, though you ought to ask out of politeness. If I order the book from Forge World and read that it should be considered official, why then would someone tell me it isn't official?

That's precisely what happens in my case when I try to use the book. I started 40k thinking that Chapter Approved was official and bought an armored company. Then I found out it wasn't. I got back in later when I found out (through reading the books) that Forge World's book with armored company is official, but then I'm told it isn't even when I have a GW Rulebook right in front of me saying it is. You have no idea how disappointing being told "your army isn't good enough" is, because that's what it sounds like when people outright ignore that it is an official army.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
If you don't do it to make money, then why bring up that "it takes too much time and effort" on the part of the TO to include Forge World? If they think it takes too much effort to go through the 40k rules and make sure they understand them, then perhaps they've bit off more than they can chew.

Or, perhaps they should shoot for a more manageable tournament to organize- such as, one that doesn't require a document like this to keep track of Forgeworld items.

Have you looked through that document and seen the level of effort required to show just where the current rules are of all allowable FW units? Let alone being ready to make a rules call on any one of them. I think you should do this before criticizing TOs for "biting off more than they can chew" just because they don't allow FW. Check it out:

http://www.adepticon.org/13rules/201340KIAApoc.pdf

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
Except no one does it to make money. Furthermore, No one could afford what it would cost to pay me enough to run a tournament if I cared about the money.I have no issue being a volunteer and sinking my money into an event to improve it. What I don't like is ungrateful people who have no idea what their talking about complaining about how things are run because the " Pay for it" Most tournaments function as advertised, and you get what was advertised.

As to FW being part of the core game, that was covered pages ago, its not. The core game is BRB + Codex, FW is an expansion of the core rules (read not needed to actually play the game, and largely non-functional without the base codices. IA book is not equal to a codex (it's not a codex) nor is it equal to the BRB. That does not mean it is not part of the game, or inherently should be disallowed. But in many cases it is not, and so if you follow tournaments at all you would know that it is not always included and perhaps you should ask.

If you don't do it to make money, then why bring up that "it takes too much time and effort" on the part of the TO to include Forge World? If they think it takes too much effort to go through the 40k rules and make sure they understand them, then perhaps they've bit off more than they can chew.

As for your second point, where does it say the core game is BRB + codex? And where does it say that things cannot be added that aren't in the BRB or codex? Because it says right in the front of the FW books that they should be considered official, though you ought to ask out of politeness. If I order the book from Forge World and read that it should be considered official, why then would someone tell me it isn't official?

That's precisely what happens in my case when I try to use the book. I started 40k thinking that Chapter Approved was official and bought an armored company. Then I found out it wasn't. I got back in later when I found out (through reading the books) that Forge World's book with armored company is official, but then I'm told it isn't even when I have a GW Rulebook right in front of me saying it is. You have no idea how disappointing being told "your army isn't good enough" is, because that's what it sounds like when people outright ignore that it is an official army.

One, because it costs me lots of out of pocket money to obtain the FW books that I don't have to spend? Because no one around me really uses FW so I don't have a chance to play it to really understand it? Because I don't feel like I should need to break the law or my bank to run an event? Take your pick, for me it has little to do with time and everything to do with money. Throw on top of that if the players attending my event told me they'd like FW I would include it, they have told me the opposite.

The BRB refers to Codices as where to find your army rules and mentions no other source. Hence core rules, it does not outlaw expansions. You then say yourself that FW is official but that you should ask about using it to make sure people are happy to play against it. Which is what the ban is saying in my case, that a majority of people are saying "Sorry but I'd rather not play against FW units." Furthermore, GW when they have run events have disallowed it, so again not on the same standing as a codex.

Essentially, what I would like to see FW players do to help themselves is the following.

1.) Accept that FW is not blanket legal in all events. Obtain models to make a codex legal armylist, and begin attending local events and LGS open gaming.

2.) Accept that people are unfamilar with FW and this is the great cause of them not wanting to play against it. When you go to local games, ask if you perhaps can use one unit that is FW in an otherwise codex list. Begin talking to local TO(s) about perhaps including limited FW in events. Breaking change in slowly is much more palitable to people.

3.) Accept that even when FW is largely accepted that there may be units people are uncomfortable with because of unbalanced FW release schedule (heavily Imperial biased)

Now before you all go running and saying "Why should I have to spend money to be able to play my army....its legal", I'lll return and say why should I as a TO have to shell out $900 (or break the law) just because you don't want to spend 1/3 to 1/2 that much to have a codex legal army? Why should I spend that money, brush up on FW rules when you make no effort of your own to ease other players into FW inclusion? I don't care one way or the other if FW is included personally, but my players frequently do and seeing as how the "pay me" I abide by their desire not to use it. Now if one of them wanted FW included, to me it is on him to convince others that "maybe its not that bad", and to put up with some push back and restrictions. It is not on me as a TO, to risk my event Failing to please people that for the most part (I have one guy that attends any of my events that would like to see FW, and for him I included it in my secondary event at my GT), don't want to play FW.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
Except no one does it to make money. Furthermore, No one could afford what it would cost to pay me enough to run a tournament if I cared about the money.I have no issue being a volunteer and sinking my money into an event to improve it. What I don't like is ungrateful people who have no idea what their talking about complaining about how things are run because the " Pay for it" Most tournaments function as advertised, and you get what was advertised.

As to FW being part of the core game, that was covered pages ago, its not. The core game is BRB + Codex, FW is an expansion of the core rules (read not needed to actually play the game, and largely non-functional without the base codices. IA book is not equal to a codex (it's not a codex) nor is it equal to the BRB. That does not mean it is not part of the game, or inherently should be disallowed. But in many cases it is not, and so if you follow tournaments at all you would know that it is not always included and perhaps you should ask.

If you don't do it to make money, then why bring up that "it takes too much time and effort" on the part of the TO to include Forge World? If they think it takes too much effort to go through the 40k rules and make sure they understand them, then perhaps they've bit off more than they can chew.

As for your second point, where does it say the core game is BRB + codex? And where does it say that things cannot be added that aren't in the BRB or codex? Because it says right in the front of the FW books that they should be considered official, though you ought to ask out of politeness. If I order the book from Forge World and read that it should be considered official, why then would someone tell me it isn't official?

That's precisely what happens in my case when I try to use the book. I started 40k thinking that Chapter Approved was official and bought an armored company. Then I found out it wasn't. I got back in later when I found out (through reading the books) that Forge World's book with armored company is official, but then I'm told it isn't even when I have a GW Rulebook right in front of me saying it is. You have no idea how disappointing being told "your army isn't good enough" is, because that's what it sounds like when people outright ignore that it is an official army.

Literally every point above has been answered in the last 38 pages. There's even page cites for where it states that BRB+Codex are the only BRB-recognized rules. Breng has also answered a lot of your points in one nice post. Let me put it this way, I've spent more than I care to admit on building my Elysian Droptroops army, and with how powerful flyers are now, I'm just building it as a showcase army where I can lavish all my time and effort on painting. Do I care that I'll probably play it once or twice a year? No, because I have a Codex-legal army that I can use. I'm pro-FW, and I strongly do not believe that criticizing the TOs is the right way to go just because you're unhappy that you can't use your Armoured Brigade.

Breng77 wrote:

One, because it costs me lots of out of pocket money to obtain the FW books that I don't have to spend? Because no one around me really uses FW so I don't have a chance to play it to really understand it? Because I don't feel like I should need to break the law or my bank to run an event? Take your pick, for me it has little to do with time and everything to do with money. Throw on top of that if the players attending my event told me they'd like FW I would include it, they have told me the opposite.

The BRB refers to Codices as where to find your army rules and mentions no other source. Hence core rules, it does not outlaw expansions. You then say yourself that FW is official but that you should ask about using it to make sure people are happy to play against it. Which is what the ban is saying in my case, that a majority of people are saying "Sorry but I'd rather not play against FW units." Furthermore, GW when they have run events have disallowed it, so again not on the same standing as a codex.

Essentially, what I would like to see FW players do to help themselves is the following.

1.) Accept that FW is not blanket legal in all events. Obtain models to make a codex legal armylist, and begin attending local events and LGS open gaming.

2.) Accept that people are unfamilar with FW and this is the great cause of them not wanting to play against it. When you go to local games, ask if you perhaps can use one unit that is FW in an otherwise codex list. Begin talking to local TO(s) about perhaps including limited FW in events. Breaking change in slowly is much more palitable to people.

3.) Accept that even when FW is largely accepted that there may be units people are uncomfortable with because of unbalanced FW release schedule (heavily Imperial biased)

Now before you all go running and saying "Why should I have to spend money to be able to play my army....its legal", I'lll return and say why should I as a TO have to shell out $900 (or break the law) just because you don't want to spend 1/3 to 1/2 that much to have a codex legal army? Why should I spend that money, brush up on FW rules when you make no effort of your own to ease other players into FW inclusion? I don't care one way or the other if FW is included personally, but my players frequently do and seeing as how the "pay me" I abide by their desire not to use it. Now if one of them wanted FW included, to me it is on him to convince others that "maybe its not that bad", and to put up with some push back and restrictions. It is not on me as a TO, to risk my event Failing to please people that for the most part (I have one guy that attends any of my events that would like to see FW, and for him I included it in my secondary event at my GT), don't want to play FW.

1) I refuse to accept this. And I don't have to obtain models to make a codex legal armylist to attend local events and LGS open gaming, because they all (around here) recognize the legality of Forge World.
2) Unfamiliarity is not a good reason not to play, otherwise I could simply refuse to play against the new Eldar "wtf is ancient doom and battle-focus" codex. The local TO allows Forge World in all of his events, and it rarely wins.
3) People are also uncomfortable with Necrons, Grey Knights, and now, Tau, even to the point that there are other threads on this forum complaining about how people are uncomfortable with them! And if people don't like Imperial bias, they're definitely playing the wrong game.

You don't have to shell out money for the Forge World rules - I'd be happy to answer any and every question you have about my book, and you know full well there are other places to purview the rules. Even buying them is only $500 or so, not $900. And I can't convince the entire nation alone, nor can the other FW players - none of us are TOs (afaik) and so we have to resort to convincing the TOs to let us play so we can convince others that it isn't so bad! See the problem?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Enigwolf wrote:

Literally every point above has been answered in the last 38 pages. There's even page cites for where it states that BRB+Codex are the only BRB-recognized rules. Breng has also answered a lot of your points in one nice post. Let me put it this way, I've spent more than I care to admit on building my Elysian Droptroops army, and with how powerful flyers are now, I'm just building it as a showcase army where I can lavish all my time and effort on painting. Do I care that I'll probably play it once or twice a year? No, because I have a Codex-legal army that I can use. I'm pro-FW, and I strongly do not believe that criticizing the TOs is the right way to go just because you're unhappy that you can't use your Armoured Brigade.

The points have not been addressed to my satisfaction - in fact, I fail to see where they've been addressed at all in some cases. I don't have a codex-legal army except for my Black Templars, but I love my Armored Battlegroup more and do not nearly have as much effort in my BTs.

And I do feel bad for criticizing the TOs, but I don't see any other way to go about it - they won't allow it out of sheer stubbornness as far as I can tell!

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

And I do feel bad for criticizing the TOs, but I don't see any other way to go about it - they won't allow it out of sheer stubbornness as far as I can tell!

I challenge this statement. Compare the tourney scene now to a decade ago. Look at how many tourneys have started including full FW or limited FW at some of their title events, Adepticon TT and NOVA to name a few. To say that it's stubbornness is just unfair to the TOs. They are enacting change slowly, but it's there. History shows it.

Would you rather they all take a huge plunge by including full FW in everything, risk the entire event going bust with a lack of attendance, draining organizer's funds to cover the costs of the event, and spell the death of that annual tourney? In fact, I'd like to ask you, how long have you been playing 40k and how many large, regional tourneys HAVE you attended, and if so, which ones?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
none of us are TOs (afaik) and so we have to resort to convincing the TOs to let us play so we can convince others that it isn't so bad! See the problem

There are at least three TOs posting on this thread, including one TO from NOVA who is including full FW in a NOVA event this year. You clearly have not read all 39 pages of this thread. I highly recommend that you do.

 Enigwolf wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

And I do feel bad for criticizing the TOs, but I don't see any other way to go about it - they won't allow it out of sheer stubbornness as far as I can tell!

I challenge this statement. Compare the tourney scene now to a decade ago. Look at how many tourneys have started including full FW or limited FW at some of their title events, Adepticon TT and NOVA to name a few. To say that it's stubbornness is just unfair to the TOs. They are enacting change slowly, but it's there. History shows it.

Would you rather they all take a huge plunge by including full FW in everything, risk the entire event going bust with a lack of attendance, draining organizer's funds to cover the costs of the event, and spell the death of that annual tourney? In fact, I'd like to ask you, how long have you been playing 40k and how many large, regional tourneys HAVE you attended, and if so, which ones?

I've been playing since I was 12 (beginning of 3rd), but I've only attended Wargamescon- I don't have the money to fly around the country lately since I am finishing school, and earlier my parents were against the idea and not many tournaments allowed Armored Company anyhow.

And I doubt that the allowance of Forge World would utterly collapse the entire endeavor and spell doom for the 40k community as we know it - in fact, such talk sounds awfully hyperbolic.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Enigwolf wrote:

There are at least three TOs posting on this thread, including one TO from NOVA who is including full FW in a NOVA event this year. You clearly have not read all 39 pages of this thread. I highly recommend that you do.

I have read that, and they are allowing FW in some events around the country, thank the Emperor. But the fact that others continue to resist the idea is alarming to me, and the more Forge World is allowed the more they will cry and howl that it shouldn't be, perhaps swinging the pendulum back.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Enigwolf wrote:

There are at least three TOs posting on this thread, including one TO from NOVA who is including full FW in a NOVA event this year. You clearly have not read all 39 pages of this thread. I highly recommend that you do.

I have read that, and they are allowing FW in some events around the country, thank the Emperor. But the fact that others continue to resist the idea is alarming to me, and the more Forge World is allowed the more they will cry and howl that it shouldn't be, perhaps swinging the pendulum back.

You make it sound as though this is some kind of idea everyone needs to be indoctrinated into. Based on past responses, tourneys that have typically allowed FW inclusion has kept to it year after year. Again, I'd like to point out Adepticon TT as an example. If the pendulum was truly swinging back, then Adepticon would've stopped using FW inclusion for their TT. I have a simple question to ask of you - do you or do you not see an increase in FW inclusion in tourneys over the course of the past decade. You don't need to have attended them at all, just a simple yes or no.

 Enigwolf wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Enigwolf wrote:

There are at least three TOs posting on this thread, including one TO from NOVA who is including full FW in a NOVA event this year. You clearly have not read all 39 pages of this thread. I highly recommend that you do.

I have read that, and they are allowing FW in some events around the country, thank the Emperor. But the fact that others continue to resist the idea is alarming to me, and the more Forge World is allowed the more they will cry and howl that it shouldn't be, perhaps swinging the pendulum back.

You make it sound as though this is some kind of idea everyone needs to be indoctrinated into. Based on past responses, tourneys that have typically allowed FW inclusion has kept to it year after year. Again, I'd like to point out Adepticon TT as an example. If the pendulum was truly swinging back, then Adepticon would've stopped using FW inclusion for their TT. I have a simple question to ask of you - do you or do you not see an increase in FW inclusion in tourneys over the course of the past decade. You don't need to have attended them at all, just a simple yes or no.

I do see an increase in FW usage in tournaments around the country. And that is satisfying.

However, there are some that continue to disallow it, and there are still players out there who dislike it. Such people should be relegated to the same types of people who think Necrons, Tau, or vehicles should be banned. It is against that irrational dislike of Forge World which I speak.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Enigwolf wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Enigwolf wrote:

There are at least three TOs posting on this thread, including one TO from NOVA who is including full FW in a NOVA event this year. You clearly have not read all 39 pages of this thread. I highly recommend that you do.

I have read that, and they are allowing FW in some events around the country, thank the Emperor. But the fact that others continue to resist the idea is alarming to me, and the more Forge World is allowed the more they will cry and howl that it shouldn't be, perhaps swinging the pendulum back.

You make it sound as though this is some kind of idea everyone needs to be indoctrinated into. Based on past responses, tourneys that have typically allowed FW inclusion has kept to it year after year. Again, I'd like to point out Adepticon TT as an example. If the pendulum was truly swinging back, then Adepticon would've stopped using FW inclusion for their TT. I have a simple question to ask of you - do you or do you not see an increase in FW inclusion in tourneys over the course of the past decade. You don't need to have attended them at all, just a simple yes or no.

I do see an increase in FW usage in tournaments around the country. And that is satisfying.

However, there are some that continue to disallow it, and there are still players out there who dislike it. Such people should be relegated to the same types of people who think Necrons, Tau, or vehicles should be banned. It is against that irrational dislike of Forge World which I speak.

My thoughts are to give it time. It's a trend that's continuing and increasing. Bashing TOs is probably only going to make them bitter about it - leave them alone. Go bash GW instead for not putting a Forgeworld mention in the BRB.

 Enigwolf wrote:
My thoughts are to give it time. It's a trend that's continuing and increasing. Bashing TOs is probably only going to make them bitter about it - leave them alone. Go bash GW instead for not putting a Forgeworld mention in the BRB.

I pretty much am giving it time. Typing on a forum is hardly likely to change anything, so give it time is my only option. Bashing TOs wasn't my intention, I was merely reacting negatively to the "it's too hard" claim - that TOs shouldn't allow Forge World because it makes them do more things.

As far as GW, they do mention it in the BRB - just not in the rules section. I fail to see how putting a mention in the BRB's Rules section would make it any more official than simply saying its official, as they have done already. So I do not hold it against them.

Although I do hold other things against them - such as being out-of-touch enough with the community that they can't see that they need to say more than "Forge World should be considered official." Though I can understand why that would seem like enough.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I fail to see how putting a mention in the BRB's Rules section would make it any more official than simply saying its official, as they have done already. So I do not hold it against them.

So you think that the rulebook in the DV set isn't valid for some reason? Because that's all it contains (the Rules section).

rigeld2 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I fail to see how putting a mention in the BRB's Rules section would make it any more official than simply saying its official, as they have done already. So I do not hold it against them.

So you think that the rulebook in the DV set isn't valid for some reason? Because that's all it contains (the Rules section).

No, it's valid - and it doesn't mention FW, yes. I just don't see why it has to, if GW has already said elsewhere that Forge World should be considered official.

Again, Unit... we've covered that pretty thoroughly here. Yes, it'd be great for FW to be allowed in more venues. No, it's not the default and you can't assume it will be without asking. And no, bashing TOs was not the way to go about making your argument for more inclusion... I appreciate that you've said that wasn't your "intent", but you did so pretty strongly, hence the response from so many folks to your first posts here.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Breng77 wrote:

One, because it costs me lots of out of pocket money to obtain the FW books that I don't have to spend? Because no one around me really uses FW so I don't have a chance to play it to really understand it? Because I don't feel like I should need to break the law or my bank to run an event? Take your pick, for me it has little to do with time and everything to do with money. Throw on top of that if the players attending my event told me they'd like FW I would include it, they have told me the opposite.

The BRB refers to Codices as where to find your army rules and mentions no other source. Hence core rules, it does not outlaw expansions. You then say yourself that FW is official but that you should ask about using it to make sure people are happy to play against it. Which is what the ban is saying in my case, that a majority of people are saying "Sorry but I'd rather not play against FW units." Furthermore, GW when they have run events have disallowed it, so again not on the same standing as a codex.

Essentially, what I would like to see FW players do to help themselves is the following.

1.) Accept that FW is not blanket legal in all events. Obtain models to make a codex legal armylist, and begin attending local events and LGS open gaming.

2.) Accept that people are unfamilar with FW and this is the great cause of them not wanting to play against it. When you go to local games, ask if you perhaps can use one unit that is FW in an otherwise codex list. Begin talking to local TO(s) about perhaps including limited FW in events. Breaking change in slowly is much more palitable to people.

3.) Accept that even when FW is largely accepted that there may be units people are uncomfortable with because of unbalanced FW release schedule (heavily Imperial biased)

Now before you all go running and saying "Why should I have to spend money to be able to play my army....its legal", I'lll return and say why should I as a TO have to shell out $900 (or break the law) just because you don't want to spend 1/3 to 1/2 that much to have a codex legal army? Why should I spend that money, brush up on FW rules when you make no effort of your own to ease other players into FW inclusion? I don't care one way or the other if FW is included personally, but my players frequently do and seeing as how the "pay me" I abide by their desire not to use it. Now if one of them wanted FW included, to me it is on him to convince others that "maybe its not that bad", and to put up with some push back and restrictions. It is not on me as a TO, to risk my event Failing to please people that for the most part (I have one guy that attends any of my events that would like to see FW, and for him I included it in my secondary event at my GT), don't want to play FW.

1) I refuse to accept this. And I don't have to obtain models to make a codex legal armylist to attend local events and LGS open gaming, because they all (around here) recognize the legality of Forge World.
2) Unfamiliarity is not a good reason not to play, otherwise I could simply refuse to play against the new Eldar "wtf is ancient doom and battle-focus" codex. The local TO allows Forge World in all of his events, and it rarely wins.
3) People are also uncomfortable with Necrons, Grey Knights, and now, Tau, even to the point that there are other threads on this forum complaining about how people are uncomfortable with them! And if people don't like Imperial bias, they're definitely playing the wrong game.

You don't have to shell out money for the Forge World rules - I'd be happy to answer any and every question you have about my book, and you know full well there are other places to purview the rules. Even buying them is only $500 or so, not $900. And I can't convince the entire nation alone, nor can the other FW players - none of us are TOs (afaik) and so we have to resort to convincing the TOs to let us play so we can convince others that it isn't so bad! See the problem?

1.) which is your choice and if your local area allows FW you don't have a dog in the fight unless you plan on traveling to a large event that disallows FW but why would you?

2.) unfamiliarity with a single new book(which is banned in events for at least it's initial month of release.) is not equal to unfamiliarity with 12+ books of rules. If you don't see that I cannot help you to do so.

3.) In my area they are not uncomfortable with these thugs they see them all the time, and FW is particularly more imperial biased than standard codices.

As a tournament judge I cannot make rulings in a game based on the guy using it telling me how it works, so I need to be at least familiar with the rules to make informed calls. FW books also have reprints of some army lists/ units so I need to know which ones are real. The $900 is based on adding up the price of all the 40k legal FW books on the FW website and converting to dollars. So no it's not just $500. Ad yes I know and mentioned that I can obtain them illegally but why should I need to break the law so you can use your army? If no FW players are TOs (which is false) why not become one? S if you start locally and convince the local players (which is not an issue for you) that it is not so bad, then you can expand from there.

My point is you are unwilling as a player to make any changes, to accommodate TO's or other players, how does that make me as a to really want to accommodate people like you. Like I said I cater to the players, I ask after my event if they want FW inclusion. If the answer is no I don't push it on the,pm. As if I did an no one showed up I am out a bunch of money and my event dies (I'll only accept a big loss one time, I have bills to pay.

Also the reference of it being to hard was in reference to banning specific FW units, and that it was easier ( in cases where the sentiment is anti-FW to ban all FW.

I guess my question to you is this, if you have local FW events to go to, why should events you don't attend, that have happy players be forced to include FW?

 Enigwolf wrote:
There's even page cites for where it states that BRB+Codex are the only BRB-recognized rules.

No there aren't, because no such rule exists. The 6th edition rulebook says that you use a codex, it does NOT say that the codex is the only official source for rules. The requirement that the core rulebook specifically mention a source of rules is entirely an invention of certain players, GW is content to publish new rules and say "this is now part of the game".

So, the point remains: people buy an army that is legal according to GW, and third-party TOs declare that they aren't welcome if they want to use it. You can make a legitimate argument that banning FW is a necessary evil and the benefits to the non-FW players are worth excluding the FW-only players, but you need to at least admit that you're making a house rule.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Enigwolf wrote:
There's even page cites for where it states that BRB+Codex are the only BRB-recognized rules.

No there aren't, because no such rule exists. The 6th edition rulebook says that you use a codex, it does NOT say that the codex is the only official source for rules. The requirement that the core rulebook specifically mention a source of rules is entirely an invention of certain players, GW is content to publish new rules and say "this is now part of the game".

So, the point remains: people buy an army that is legal according to GW, and third-party TOs declare that they aren't welcome if they want to use it. You can make a legitimate argument that banning FW is a necessary evil and the benefits to the non-FW players are worth excluding the FW-only players, but you need to at least admit that you're making a house rule.

Only in so far as you are saying that any number of other options (that is what they are) in the game are not being used. There is no official rule stating that you must play with FW, just like there is no rule saying you must play with Mysterious terrain, book missions, or allies or fortifications. By including FW and forcing people go give consent to play against it (which GW ask that you get in their own book, or at least they ask that you check with your opponent) you are also playing by a house rule. There is very little having to do with army construction that GW requires you to do.

As for the argument about being excluded, I still don't 100% buy it it seems to me that players are just as likely to be aware of events at their local stores and their rules (moreso actually ) than anything regarding FW. SO if you know that FW is not allowed, and then you go buy it, and refuse to play without being allowed to use it, you are excluding yourself not the other way around.

Peregrine wrote:

 Enigwolf wrote:
There's even page cites for where it states that BRB+Codex are the only BRB-recognized rules.

No there aren't, because no such rule exists. The 6th edition rulebook says that you use a codex, it does NOT say that the codex is the only official source for rules. The requirement that the core rulebook specifically mention a source of rules is entirely an invention of certain players, GW is content to publish new rules and say "this is now part of the game".

So, the point remains: people buy an army that is legal according to GW, and third-party TOs declare that they aren't welcome if they want to use it. You can make a legitimate argument that banning FW is a necessary evil and the benefits to the non-FW players are worth excluding the FW-only players, but you need to at least admit that you're making a house rule.

Sorry, re-reading my own prior post I realize that the nuances off it came off differently from how I intended it to. Yes, I intended to say that there are pages citing that you need to use a codex, but there is no reference to Forgeworld's rules in it, as someone else had pointed out before in this thread. Yes, "No FW" is a house rule, but as Breng77 later points out, it's no different from Mysterious Objectives, Mysterious Terrain, etc.

Breng77 wrote:
As for the argument about being excluded, I still don't 100% buy it it seems to me that players are just as likely to be aware of events at their local stores and their rules (moreso actually ) than anything regarding FW. SO if you know that FW is not allowed, and then you go buy it, and refuse to play without being allowed to use it, you are excluding yourself not the other way around.

Agreed with this as well, unless you decided to start your first army as an FW army, in which case I don't know what to say, given that Forgeworld is so obscure to someone just starting in the hobby.

Breng77 wrote:
Only in so far as you are saying that any number of other options (that is what they are) in the game are not being used. There is no official rule stating that you must play with FW, just like there is no rule saying you must play with Mysterious terrain, book missions, or allies or fortifications.

Actually there is. Allies and fortifications are part of the game. Obviously you aren't required to have them in your army (just like you aren't required to take any fast attack choices), but they are always available and if you ban them you're imposing a house rule on your opponent.

Mysterious objectives and new missions are different because the rules say they're optional (mysterious objectives because they're only used in missions that specifically include them). Nobody is being excluded from the game because you invent a new mission, unless you do something stupid like make a mission where orks are banned because you don't like your opponent's ork army.

By including FW and forcing people go give consent to play against it (which GW ask that you get in their own book, or at least they ask that you check with your opponent) you are also playing by a house rule.

That's not true at all. The statement from GW says that you SHOULD check with your opponent, not that you MUST. It's about being polite and not surprising them with rules they aren't familiar with, not the old (and no longer relevant) requirement that you had to ask permission before you could use anything.

As for the argument about being excluded, I still don't 100% buy it it seems to me that players are just as likely to be aware of events at their local stores and their rules (moreso actually ) than anything regarding FW. SO if you know that FW is not allowed, and then you go buy it, and refuse to play without being allowed to use it, you are excluding yourself not the other way around.

What you're missing is the option that you start playing with one group of people then want to go play elsewhere. For example, I started playing primarily with a friend who had no problem with FW, so I invested in a lot of FW stuff. I don't actually own a playable no-FW army, so any event that bans FW is saying "you are not welcome".

 Peregrine wrote:

Mysterious objectives and new missions are different because the rules say they're optional (mysterious objectives because they're only used in missions that specifically include them). Nobody is being excluded from the game because you invent a new mission, unless you do something stupid like make a mission where orks are banned because you don't like your opponent's ork army.

One thing to note, Peregrine, is that the BRB missions include Mysterious Objectives as part of the rules, but do you ever see anyone playing them? Other than that, I agree with the rest of your post.