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 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 happygolucky wrote:
atm the meta is varied between each area and to me that's cool, it means we are living in the golden age of 40k as every army has a chance to get to the top. With certain cherry picked units, we would be living in 5th ed. where SM and IG and anything inquisition ruled the game, and that's kind of boring tbh..

Necrons, Eldar and Tau. Honorable mention to Imperial Guard with X allied MEQ HQ. How is that different from Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Imperial Guard and Grey Knights, other than the fact that they're different factions?

Not really I also see DE, Tyranids, Vanilla marines, CSM, Daemons.

Like I said its different because most armies now have a chance to get to the top of the tournament, adding FW, will just add further unbalancing and turn the meta back into what was 5th ed. where the imperial boys were at the top. This should not be the case, in a competitive environment every army should have a right to win but then again 40k is designed as a casual game, not a competitive game, so obvious FW cherry picked units will just make the whole tournament scene just transformed into "Imperium or GTFO" but that's my opinion.

That's when you field lots of tank busting weaponry

Actually catering to Pro forge world folks would be more elitist than not. As it is catering to a small group of individuals that own and play fw vs the majority that don't own fw.

As for the survey I'll speak for myself I sent a survey to the players who chose to attend my event asking them about fw inclusion (approved stuff only) in future events. The players were ovrwhelmingly against it. I see no reason to have an open poll as it would allow players input that have no intent on attending. If players who want fw and would like to attend my events wish to speak up they can email me at the email on my tournament site.

Breng77 wrote:
Actually catering to Pro forge world folks would be more elitist than not. As it is catering to a small group of individuals that own and play fw vs the majority that don't own fw.

As for the survey I'll speak for myself I sent a survey to the players who chose to attend my event asking them about fw inclusion (approved stuff only) in future events. The players were ovrwhelmingly against it. I see no reason to have an open poll as it would allow players input that have no intent on attending. If players who want fw and would like to attend my events wish to speak up they can email me at the email on my tournament site.

We don't see much FW here in AU it would be a nice change

 happygolucky wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 happygolucky wrote:
atm the meta is varied between each area and to me that's cool, it means we are living in the golden age of 40k as every army has a chance to get to the top. With certain cherry picked units, we would be living in 5th ed. where SM and IG and anything inquisition ruled the game, and that's kind of boring tbh..

Necrons, Eldar and Tau. Honorable mention to Imperial Guard with X allied MEQ HQ. How is that different from Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Imperial Guard and Grey Knights, other than the fact that they're different factions?

Not really I also see DE, Tyranids, Vanilla marines, CSM, Daemons.

And I saw loads of Orks, DE and Tyranids win local tournaments in 5th, but the big tournaments were dominated by the Imperium, just like Xenos are dominating the big tournaments now. Xenos won WargamesCon 2013, Xenos won BAO 2013 and Xenos won Adepticon 2013. But sure, "anyone can win"...

Well, Imperial armies have also won stuff. Gonyo won some GTs with DA/IG/GK and Kopach won NOVA with SW/IG. Both also placed well at some other big events.

I can without a doubt say that the current meta is far more interesting and varied than the one that I saw in 5th. This extends to both list composition and variety of codices being played.

 LValx wrote:
Well, Imperial armies have also won stuff. Gonyo won some GTs with DA/IG/GK and Kopach won NOVA with SW/IG. Both also placed well at some other big events.

I can without a doubt say that the current meta is far more interesting and varied than the one that I saw in 5th. This extends to both list composition and variety of codices being played.

This is so true.

Even with a lot of Necrons, Necrons +X being played and reaching top tables, it's a lot better than 8 out of top sixteen lists being GK, with the other eight being SW/IG. We've seen just about every Army place fairly highly, if not outright win in 6th.

 happygolucky wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 happygolucky wrote:
atm the meta is varied between each area and to me that's cool, it means we are living in the golden age of 40k as every army has a chance to get to the top. With certain cherry picked units, we would be living in 5th ed. where SM and IG and anything inquisition ruled the game, and that's kind of boring tbh..

Necrons, Eldar and Tau. Honorable mention to Imperial Guard with X allied MEQ HQ. How is that different from Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Imperial Guard and Grey Knights, other than the fact that they're different factions?

Not really I also see DE, Tyranids, Vanilla marines, CSM, Daemons.

Like I said its different because most armies now have a chance to get to the top of the tournament, adding FW, will just add further unbalancing and turn the meta back into what was 5th ed. where the imperial boys were at the top. This should not be the case, in a competitive environment every army should have a right to win but then again 40k is designed as a casual game, not a competitive game, so obvious FW cherry picked units will just make the whole tournament scene just transformed into "Imperium or GTFO" but that's my opinion.

There's really no evidence this is true, no evidence that FW would shift balance that much, there's some pretty damn good Xenos stuff, and even if this "nightmare" scenario is true, these units exist in the 40k universe, are made by GW for Warhammer 40,000 play for typical games, since when has it ever been the responsibility of a TO to ensure all armies have a fair shot? They certainly don't do anything about it with regards to Codex issues. Eldar broke the game so much in 2nd that GW revamped half the game mechanics for 3rd just to make SM's playable and TO's didn't do anything about it then, Rhino Rush and Eldar starcannon spam and Disruption tables and CSM's dominated 3rd edition and TO's didn't do anything about it, Eldar Skimmerspam dominated the 2nd half of 4th edition without any action by TO's to curb it, GK/SW/IG/BA/SM's dominated 5th, TO's didn't do anything about it. Why is it relevant *ONLY* to Forgeworld?

This line of thinking is no different than telling someone they can't use their new Eldar codex because Eldar will dominate the metagame.

 Sasori wrote:

 LValx wrote:
Well, Imperial armies have also won stuff. Gonyo won some GTs with DA/IG/GK and Kopach won NOVA with SW/IG. Both also placed well at some other big events.

I can without a doubt say that the current meta is far more interesting and varied than the one that I saw in 5th. This extends to both list composition and variety of codices being played.

This is so true.

Even with a lot of Necrons, Necrons +X being played and reaching top tables, it's a lot better than 8 out of top sixteen lists being GK, with the other eight being SW/IG. We've seen just about every Army place fairly highly, if not outright win in 6th.

Agreed! The tourney meta is a lot more exciting and interesting to me at the moment than it was towards the end of 5th edition.

Guard blobs are already doing great without the addition of things like Thudd guns, as evidenced by Tony Kopach's performance. Of course, his skill is a huge factor, but IG are great as allies now... as they should be.

But so are a lot of other armies, and there's a ton of variety being fielded atm in my opinion. So, I just don't see a "need" for unlimited Forgeworld (the topic of this thread). But while that is my view, I also think some FW allowance can be a fun addition. I think a lot of gamers feel this way. But start talking about how FW-allowed is the only way to play, a la some of the posts on the last page when this thread was brought back from the depths, and you'll turn most of the room off to your argument immediately.

That is he fault of reasoning by most pro fw people fw books are not equivalent to codices, they are also something that for many editions was no "40k approved" so going from basically not allowing any FW to all the sudden wholesale allowing it is a big step, as big a step as outlawing a codex would be. They are also far less organized than the codexes (units get re-printed as do army lists with different rules, so unless you own them all you have no real way of knowing what is current.) I'm not saying this is a reason not to accept them. Simply to refute the fact that disallowing them is in any way similar to banning a codex.

 RiTides wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

 LValx wrote:
I just don't see a "need" for unlimited Forgeworld (the topic of this thread). But while that is my view, I also think some FW allowance can be a fun addition. I think a lot of gamers feel this way. But start talking about how FW-allowed is the only way to play, a la some of the posts on the last page when this thread was brought back from the depths, and you'll turn most of the room off to your argument immediately.

I am not interested in a popularity contest. I am interested in playing by all of the 40k rules. I keep using 40k Approved, you keep using the term unlimited Forge World. Which of these terms could more easily be misunderstood? I know what you have said earlier. I am saying many who have not gone thru this tread will see Forge World allowed and think items 1, 2 and 3 in the image below. I am talking about item 3 below.

The problem with some "FW allowance" as you call it is we both know the WIN AT ALL COST players will load up with allied sabres and thuds and it will be a see how terrible Forge World is.

All armies have something that just cries to be used for a WIN AT ALL COSTS player. CRON AIR, RIPTIDES, VENDETTAS. I do not see any of the other things getting banned.

This is not about any particular tournament. The simple question is what do you think number 3 on the image below means?

You messed up the quotes a bit there

Again, that argument has been thoroughly discussed. The line "but owing to the fact they may be uknown to your opponent, it's best to make sure they are happy to play a game using Forge World models before you start" means, in a tournament setting, that the TO must decide that for the players ahead of time.

Which is exactly what this thread was about . There is no one "right" way to play, as many TOs concurred in this thread. FW is great for some events, not as good for others... and for some in the middle, a limited allowance of FW is a nice compromise.

But the fact is, the TO must make a call on this for any particular tourney, which is why the discussion turned to how particular events treat FW, rather than a "one ring to rule them all" or "this is the only way to run a tourney!1?1" discussion.

 RiTides wrote:
You messed up the quotes a bit there

Again, that argument has been thoroughly discussed. The line "but owing to the fact they may be uknown to your opponent, it's best to make sure they are happy to play a game using Forge World models before you start" means, in a tournament setting, that the TO must decide that for the players ahead of time.

Which is exactly what this thread was about . There is no one "right" way to play, as many TOs concurred in this thread. FW is great for some events, not as good for others... and for some in the middle, a limited allowance of FW is a nice compromise.

But the fact is, the TO must make a call on this for any particular tourney, which is why the discussion turned to how particular events treat FW, rather than a "one ring to rule them all" or "this is the only way to run a tourney!1?1" discussion.

Sorry about the quotes, I sure did mess them up...

When I look at item 3 I think it says these are an official part of the 40k Rule set.

The "best to make sure they are happy to play a game using Forge World models before you start" does not mean I need his permission any more than if I show up with some other list he may dislike like Vendetta Spam. Its to not surprise him and give him a chance to look at the book if he wants along with my list. In my mind there is no difference there between that and showing an opponent the new Tau supplement who likely has never seen it. Would a tournament organizer ban it for lack of knowledge for opponents? It's not even in print...the opponent has to be shown it on an electronic device.

I suspect we are not going to agree on this and that's OK.

Sooner or later I can hope more come over to my way of thinking what the rules say.

Inquistors will be looking those for not in compliance with the will of the Emperor...

The issue you still run into is that when Gw has run a tournament it has been no FW, so the standard 40k game (heck the standard rules) don't involve tournaments, which IMO are about creating the most enjoyable environment for the largest number of attendees, thus if most attendees at an event would opt with not being comfortable facing an unknown army at an event (FW is more unknown to most than codices or their supplements) then that is the best answer. If most people want FW and are comfortable with it than again best answer. Using the supplements is bad precedent, they don't have nearly the amount of rules in the (at this point) that FW brings to the table.

In the above images, Forgeworld kinda kills the argument that "40k Approved" rules are the OFFICIAL ones and so are the allowable ones.

"As with all our models, these should be considered official" kinda blows it out of the water. Besides the fact permission due to opponent comfort is a requirement (not something that applies to the codices), anyone who is arguing the 40k Approved stamp is official but not each and every other thing that FW produces is being shot down by FW themselves.

I'm not sure there's going to be a lot of budge at this point by the extremists in the discussion; for my own part, I'll continue to run a full spread of events designed to offer competitive and casual gaming to both FW fans and FW opponents. I'll probably NOT do much to address the needs of guys and gals on the fringes for whom this is a politicized, partisan, emotional, and often verbally aggressive issue ... especially those who wouldn't attend our events no matter what was offered.

MVBrandt wrote:
In the above images, Forgeworld kinda kills the argument that "40k Approved" rules are the OFFICIAL ones and so are the allowable ones.

But that's not the point. Everything FW produces is official, but not everything official GW publishes is for standard 40k.

A codex or supplement is official and part of the standard game.

"40k approved" rules are official and part of the standard game just like a codex or supplement.

"Apocalypse" rules are official and part of any game played with the Apocalypse expansion.

The Planetstrike stratagems in the recent supplements are official and part of any game played with the Planetstrike expansion.

"Heresy" rules are official and part of any Heresy game.

The "official" part of the statement is only really relevant when dealing with someone who thinks that FW is a separate company instead of just a brand name used by GW, the important part is the statement that the "40k approved" rules are the ones that are part of the standard game.

We just had a FW allowed Tourney in my area, a qualifier for the Feast of Blades. The event was hardly overrun with hordes of IG armies sporting gobs of interceptor artillery or the like, mine in fact was the only IG army and the only FW units in my list were Rapiers, people were far more afraid of the Vendettas. The one SM army sporting multiple Interceptor artillery units and Mortis Contemptor dreads got tabled its first game by a Nidzilla list and the only other army with a Mortis dread likewise got tabled its first game.

I don't believe any of the Feast of Blades qualifying players used FW at all. All 3 qualifying armies however were Eldar armies with Dark Eldar or Tau allies.

Holofields, Wave Serpents, and Conceal, along with clever manipulation of Battle Brothers Allies seemed to be the power of the day, not Forgeworld.

So the top players were seeming cheating since conceal only targets the psyker and has no effect on a wave Serpent?

That said until fw legal is the standard for tournies I would not expect to see tons of broken stuff because most people don't own it yet.

Breng77 wrote:
So the top players were seeming cheating since conceal only targets the psyker and has no effect on a wave Serpent?

No, you're misinterpreting that. The Conceal power was used to good effect on other units (particularly with one army where Dark Reapers with a Spiritseer attached coupled with allied Tau HQ joined to them routinely allowed to sit in 2+ cover with AP3 guns and ignoring cover saves), not on the Wave Serpents, but in general the presence of those three items tended to pretty much hold their own over other armies.

That said until fw legal is the standard for tournies I would not expect to see tons of broken stuff because most people don't own it yet.

And yet somehow despite having been so in some areas (in California especially) for almost a year now this hasn't happened, while new codex books see new armies are quickly fielded and advantages exploited in weeks. I just don't see this argument holding as much water as some think it does.

Molonious wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
So the top players were seeming cheating since conceal only targets the psyker and has no effect on a wave Serpent?

No, you're misinterpreting that. The Conceal power was used to good effect on other units (particularly with one army where Dark Reapers with a Spiritseer attached coupled with allied Tau HQ joined to them routinely allowed to sit in 2+ cover with AP3 guns and ignoring cover saves), not on the Wave Serpents, but in general the presence of those three items tended to pretty much hold their own over other armies.

That said until fw legal is the standard for tournies I would not expect to see tons of broken stuff because most people don't own it yet.

And yet somehow despite having been so in some areas (in California especially) for almost a year now this hasn't happened, while new codex books see new armies are quickly fielded and advantages exploited in weeks. I just don't see this argument holding as much water as some think it does.

Ok good to know it was confusion and not cheating (I have seen a lot of people try that). As for the second part. Yes it has been in CA for a Year, the problem there being that the "best" players travel to lots of out of state GTs that don't allow it and so don't drop cash on stuff they will only sometimes use, or they already have a list they like just fine and since no one else has run out to buy FW they don't either (some CA guys are opposed to FW you know). What I'm saying is that until FW is universally accepted you won't see the worst of it because people don't all want to spend money on stuff they can only use sometimes.

I've said it before, but allowing FW has nothing to do with top tier players and the guys who win events (because usually the same folks are on top no matter what book is out). It's about what happens to everyone's experience, not just the elites.

It still is decided by dice afterall

MVBrandt wrote:
I've said it before, but allowing FW has nothing to do with top tier players and the guys who win events (because usually the same folks are on top no matter what book is out). It's about what happens to everyone's experience, not just the elites.

Thanks Mike. This is really the point that matters to me. Worrying about the guys at the top is nowhere near the most important thing for any event coordinator, since most players aren't going to see any of it. And without the middle table guys, you don't have numbers for an event. It's something that gets missed by a lot of players when they start talking about scrubs, newbs, and the like, but honestly these guys are as much a part of event as the top table guys who get the internet praise, and are in fact more important as a group since they are the bulk of the participants.

As far as using FW goes, our club of fairly average players is giving it a go right now. It's a bit expensive, but IMO the biggest issue is always figuring out what book holds what unit, and also if said profile has been over-written. My example for this is the infamous Remora. It's listed in IA Apocalypse, Aeronautica, and IA3 2nd Edition with three different statlines. It's practically impossible to tell from the FW page which set of rules is current for the Remora-- nothing in it's FW page even tells you what book the rules are in. So even if you have a book with rules for the unit in them, you get a 1 in 2 chance that those rules are wrong because the currently sold book is not the most up to date version (Apocalypse is now out of print from what I can tell). Getting a list of where all the current rules for units are is much harder than it needs to be for FW stuff.

hands_miranda wrote:

MVBrandt wrote:
I've said it before, but allowing FW has nothing to do with top tier players and the guys who win events (because usually the same folks are on top no matter what book is out). It's about what happens to everyone's experience, not just the elites.

Thanks Mike. This is really the point that matters to me. Worrying about the guys at the top is nowhere near the most important thing for any event coordinator, since most players aren't going to see any of it. And without the middle table guys, you don't have numbers for an event. It's something that gets missed by a lot of players when they start talking about scrubs, newbs, and the like, but honestly these guys are as much a part of event as the top table guys who get the internet praise, and are in fact more important as a group since they are the bulk of the participants.

As far as using FW goes, our club of fairly average players is giving it a go right now. It's a bit expensive, but IMO the biggest issue is always figuring out what book holds what unit, and also if said profile has been over-written. My example for this is the infamous Remora. It's listed in IA Apocalypse, Aeronautica, and IA3 2nd Edition with three different statlines. It's practically impossible to tell from the FW page which set of rules is current for the Remora-- nothing in it's FW page even tells you what book the rules are in. So even if you have a book with rules for the unit in them, you get a 1 in 2 chance that those rules are wrong because the currently sold book is not the most up to date version (Apocalypse is now out of print from what I can tell). Getting a list of where all the current rules for units are is much harder than it needs to be for FW stuff.

Well it was easy for me.

I just looked at the description for the newest book and there it was

Imperial Armour Volume Three – Second Edition: The Taros Campaign is the definitive reference for using Forge World’s extensive range of Tau Empire armoured vehicles and battlesuits in games of 6th Edition Warhammer 40,000. This book includes profiles for each and every Tau Empire unit in the Forge World range, from the humble Heavy Gun Drone to the super-heavy Manta, including those units deployed after the bloody conflict on Taros such as the potent XV9 Hazard Close Support Team and our Kroot Auxiliary units.

The Index for Tau equipment had page 262 for the DX-6 "Remora" Drone Fighter, which also lists it as approved for 40k with all the stats and point costs and options for 6th edition.

I would expect anyone I played to show me their current book with the equipment in it and it was easy to determine which one that was.

I went to the web site, looked at the newest IA and read the description of what was inside . Took me less than a minute.

If a guy showed up with Tau 2nd edition I would ask him to have the current codex, not 2 or 3 out of date ones, I suspect you would too.

This can of course get interesting with the new "electronic books: if the other guy says his I Pad is dead

Not seeing as much as a problem as you do. The trick is if you are using a piece of equipment you must have the current book and that is easier to do than I suspect many folks are saying.

All that being said did I really read " not just the elites"? How modest....

Have a good day

 NeedleOfInquiry wrote:

hands_miranda wrote:

MVBrandt wrote:
I've said it before, but allowing FW has nothing to do with top tier players and the guys who win events (because usually the same folks are on top no matter what book is out). It's about what happens to everyone's experience, not just the elites.

Thanks Mike. This is really the point that matters to me. Worrying about the guys at the top is nowhere near the most important thing for any event coordinator, since most players aren't going to see any of it. And without the middle table guys, you don't have numbers for an event. It's something that gets missed by a lot of players when they start talking about scrubs, newbs, and the like, but honestly these guys are as much a part of event as the top table guys who get the internet praise, and are in fact more important as a group since they are the bulk of the participants.

As far as using FW goes, our club of fairly average players is giving it a go right now. It's a bit expensive, but IMO the biggest issue is always figuring out what book holds what unit, and also if said profile has been over-written. My example for this is the infamous Remora. It's listed in IA Apocalypse, Aeronautica, and IA3 2nd Edition with three different statlines. It's practically impossible to tell from the FW page which set of rules is current for the Remora-- nothing in it's FW page even tells you what book the rules are in. So even if you have a book with rules for the unit in them, you get a 1 in 2 chance that those rules are wrong because the currently sold book is not the most up to date version (Apocalypse is now out of print from what I can tell). Getting a list of where all the current rules for units are is much harder than it needs to be for FW stuff.

Well it was easy for me.

I just looked at the description for the newest book and there it was

Imperial Armour Volume Three – Second Edition: The Taros Campaign is the definitive reference for using Forge World’s extensive range of Tau Empire armoured vehicles and battlesuits in games of 6th Edition Warhammer 40,000. This book includes profiles for each and every Tau Empire unit in the Forge World range, from the humble Heavy Gun Drone to the super-heavy Manta, including those units deployed after the bloody conflict on Taros such as the potent XV9 Hazard Close Support Team and our Kroot Auxiliary units.

The Index for Tau equipment had page 262 for the DX-6 "Remora" Drone Fighter, which also lists it as approved for 40k with all the stats and point costs and options for 6th edition.

I would expect anyone I played to show me their current book with the equipment in it and it was easy to determine which one that was.

I went to the web site, looked at the newest IA and read the description of what was inside . Took me less than a minute.

If a guy showed up with Tau 2nd edition I would ask him to have the current codex, not 2 or 3 out of date ones, I suspect you would too.

This can of course get interesting with the new "electronic books: if the other guy says his I Pad is dead

Not seeing as much as a problem as you do. The trick is if you are using a piece of equipment you must have the current book and that is easier to do than I suspect many folks are saying.

All that being said did I really read " not just the elites"? How modest....

Have a good day

What does modesty have to do with me talking about elite and non-elite players? :p I'm a TO, not a player, in this discussion. That was a silly troll (though I guess it worked? lol)

It's near impossible for me ( as a player) to remember which book has the newest rules for a given FW model.
The fact that FW does nothing to help that is extremely annoying.

What does modesty have to do with me talking about elite and non-elite players? :p I'm a TO, not a player, in this discussion. That was a silly troll (though I guess it worked? lol)

You sir, are a gentleman.

It's near impossible for me ( as a player) to remember which book has the newest rules for a given FW model.
The fact that FW does nothing to help that is extremely annoying.

Strangely enough when I checked someone else mentioned that very thing two weeks ago at Forge World and their response was

We are looking at making some kind of rules index for the models.

so a online index may be on the way which would be better than the method I currently use of starting from the newest book on back.

They've said that every time I've asked for the past 18 months.
It should take all of 30 minutes. An hour if you type slow. This is just them being lazy.

 NeedleOfInquiry wrote:

Well it was easy for me.

I just looked at the description for the newest book and there it was

Imperial Armour Volume Three – Second Edition: The Taros Campaign is the definitive reference for using Forge World’s extensive range of Tau Empire armoured vehicles and battlesuits in games of 6th Edition Warhammer 40,000. This book includes profiles for each and every Tau Empire unit in the Forge World range, from the humble Heavy Gun Drone to the super-heavy Manta, including those units deployed after the bloody conflict on Taros such as the potent XV9 Hazard Close Support Team and our Kroot Auxiliary units.

The Index for Tau equipment had page 262 for the DX-6 "Remora" Drone Fighter, which also lists it as approved for 40k with all the stats and point costs and options for 6th edition.

I would expect anyone I played to show me their current book with the equipment in it and it was easy to determine which one that was.

I went to the web site, looked at the newest IA and read the description of what was inside . Took me less than a minute.

If a guy showed up with Tau 2nd edition I would ask him to have the current codex, not 2 or 3 out of date ones, I suspect you would too.

This can of course get interesting with the new "electronic books: if the other guy says his I Pad is dead

Not seeing as much as a problem as you do. The trick is if you are using a piece of equipment you must have the current book and that is easier to do than I suspect many folks are saying.

Uh.. the difference is that the 3rd and 4th edition version of the Tau Codex aren't currently available from GW. The old version of the Remora is still available from Forgeworld via IA Aeronautica. You can say this isn't confusing, but having mutliple different currently sold books with different statlines for the same unit is confusing, especially since Forgeworld doesn't think to list which book is required on the unit's ordering page. Again, it's easy if you know what you're doing and have all the books, but otherwise it's a bit opaque.

hands_miranda wrote:
Again, it's easy if you know what you're doing and have all the books, but otherwise it's a bit opaque.

Or if you have the time to look through the books on the website and see which version of a unit's rules was published more recently. It's stupid that they don't have a simple list for everyone to look at, but there's no ambiguity if you take the time to look for the information.