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 hyv3mynd wrote:


My local meta doesn't have the hardcore gamers that others do. I've never even seen triple heldrakes, triptides, or any other spammy list locally. We've run a few 40k approved FW events and I've supported them because I know with certainty that nobody around here has thudd guns, sabres, vultures, or artillery carriages to spam. If they did start showing up, I would withdraw my support of the FW events.

Would you then dismiss your local scene if Codex spam turned up? specifically triple drake?

Good generals will take the challenge of so called OP units and'or lists and prove their mettle. if you don't want to partake, that's fine, but don't pretend that that Fw is any more OP to some than Helldrakes, Tides, Cron air, and the ubiquitous Vendetta spam.

 Mr. Burning wrote:
Fw is any more OP to some than Helldrakes, Tides, Cron air, and the ubiquitous Vendetta spam.

I'm not afraid of triple Heldrakes, Vendetta spam, Cron Air, and I haven't faced more than 2 Riptides but I'm not afraid of them either.

A well built IG list using FW rules scares the crap out of me.

 Mr. Burning wrote:

 hyv3mynd wrote:


My local meta doesn't have the hardcore gamers that others do. I've never even seen triple heldrakes, triptides, or any other spammy list locally. We've run a few 40k approved FW events and I've supported them because I know with certainty that nobody around here has thudd guns, sabres, vultures, or artillery carriages to spam. If they did start showing up, I would withdraw my support of the FW events.

Would you then dismiss your local scene if Codex spam turned up? specifically triple drake?

Good generals will take the challenge of so called OP units and'or lists and prove their mettle. if you don't want to partake, that's fine, but don't pretend that that Fw is any more OP to some than Helldrakes, Tides, Cron air, and the ubiquitous Vendetta spam.

My point, like MVB and other have said, is that good players win, not strong lists. There are several local players who use double vendettas, stormravens, heldrakes, etc just not triples. In the last tournament, #1 and #2 overall had no flyers, fortifications, or spam. Double drakes, vendettas, etc lost out to good players. The point is if triple codex units showed up, I'd be fine with it because everyone has a full codex to choose from. Not everyone has an equal FW selection to choose from.

hyv3mynd wrote:

The argument that "it's not any more broken than codex units" is getting tired because FW doesn't treat every army like codexes do. When you buy a codex, you get a complete army with several choices from every FO. Every army has good and bad choices, but the for the most part get a similar number of choices.

Care to look at how many distinct units Codex: IG gets relative to say, Codex: Dark Eldar? Or Codex Space Marine vs Codex Tyranids? Looking at all the distinct units, including characters, C:SM has a third again as many units, yet that doesn't appear to be an issue. Why not add more stuff for everyone, even if it's not necessarily evenly distributed? Since when has that been something TO's concerned themselves with, Forgeworld aside?

FW does not represent each army equally. Xenos get a small fraction of additional units in comparison to IG/SM. Yes, there is undercosted or overpowered units from both core codex units and FW, but every army in the core of 40k has an entire codex to choose from.

which have different unit counts, and often go up to two editions between updates.

Until FW releases units approaching equality between Tyranids and IG, my vote will always be that FW does not get included into tournaments.

So, because you don't get as many extras, someone else can't use their Warhammer 40,000 models? That's being petty for its own sake.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Mr. Burning wrote:
Fw is any more OP to some than Helldrakes, Tides, Cron air, and the ubiquitous Vendetta spam.

I'm not afraid of triple Heldrakes, Vendetta spam, Cron Air, and I haven't faced more than 2 Riptides but I'm not afraid of them either.

A well built IG list using FW rules scares the crap out of me.

As previously noted, kill the Ld lynchpin, abuse the ld7 of the artillery units and/or move to engage in CC, and control the board (the list will be very static). The new Eldar are very good at engaging this sort of list.

rigeld2 wrote:


A well built IG list using FW rules scares the crap out of me.

Really?

I can see a fast moving army can take on FW IG: Drop pod list, Deathwing Terminators, Ravenwing... shoot... if I went first, my old assault DE list can survive a turn and get into assaults by turn 2.

*shrugs*

Guys... new, unique stuff = moar funs.

3 thudd guns is not by any means. Moar funs.

 hyv3mynd wrote:

 Mr. Burning wrote:

 hyv3mynd wrote:


My local meta doesn't have the hardcore gamers that others do. I've never even seen triple heldrakes, triptides, or any other spammy list locally. We've run a few 40k approved FW events and I've supported them because I know with certainty that nobody around here has thudd guns, sabres, vultures, or artillery carriages to spam. If they did start showing up, I would withdraw my support of the FW events.

Would you then dismiss your local scene if Codex spam turned up? specifically triple drake?

Good generals will take the challenge of so called OP units and'or lists and prove their mettle. if you don't want to partake, that's fine, but don't pretend that that Fw is any more OP to some than Helldrakes, Tides, Cron air, and the ubiquitous Vendetta spam.

My point, like MVB and other have said, is that good players win, not strong lists. There are several local players who use double vendettas, stormravens, heldrakes, etc just not triples. In the last tournament, #1 and #2 overall had no flyers, fortifications, or spam. Double drakes, vendettas, etc lost out to good players. The point is if triple codex units showed up, I'd be fine with it because everyone has a full codex to choose from. Not everyone has an equal FW selection to choose from.

Not to keep on this, but you don't need FW units to beat FW units.

 Vaktathi wrote:

hyv3mynd wrote:

The argument that "it's not any more broken than codex units" is getting tired because FW doesn't treat every army like codexes do. When you buy a codex, you get a complete army with several choices from every FO. Every army has good and bad choices, but the for the most part get a similar number of choices.

Care to look at how many distinct units Codex: IG gets relative to say, Codex: Dark Eldar? Or Codex Space Marine vs Codex Tyranids? Looking at all the distinct units, including characters, C:SM has a third again as many units, yet that doesn't appear to be an issue. Why not add more stuff for everyone, even if it's not necessarily evenly distributed? Since when has that been something TO's concerned themselves with, Forgeworld aside?

FW does not represent each army equally. Xenos get a small fraction of additional units in comparison to IG/SM. Yes, there is undercosted or overpowered units from both core codex units and FW, but every army in the core of 40k has an entire codex to choose from.

which have different unit counts, and often go up to two editions between updates.

Until FW releases units approaching equality between Tyranids and IG, my vote will always be that FW does not get included into tournaments.

So, because you don't get as many extras, someone else can't use their Warhammer 40,000 models? That's being petty for its own sake.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Mr. Burning wrote:
Fw is any more OP to some than Helldrakes, Tides, Cron air, and the ubiquitous Vendetta spam.

I'm not afraid of triple Heldrakes, Vendetta spam, Cron Air, and I haven't faced more than 2 Riptides but I'm not afraid of them either.

A well built IG list using FW rules scares the crap out of me.

As previously noted, kill the Ld lynchpin, abuse the ld7 of the artillery units and/or move to engage in CC, and control the board (the list will be very static). The new Eldar are very good at engaging this sort of list.

Call it petty if that makes you feel better. I'm not stopping anyone from using any models if you actually read what I said. I'm not a TO making those sorts of calls. I even said I support our local FW events because players around here use moderation. If things got out of control with sabre/thudd spam, I would withdraw my support but I wouldn't force others to play a certain way. Everyone can use their 40k codex models all they want. FW is an expansion that favors some armies more than others. While not every codex is equally balanced, every army does have their own codex with similar choices.

Hey, people are talking about me. Whee!

Yeah, I rolled out my Acanthrites to various tournies, including WGC. I made a "middle tables" type list for messing around. Every game the Acanthrites not only had a ridiculous impact, they also made the game less fun. I talked to my opponents and the majority said they'd trade Acanthrites for 6 Scythes, 3 Barges, 15 Wraiths or whatever are the "OP" units from the Codex.

Good players will do well regardless of format, because they're the most knowledgeable and capable to win. The vast majority of tourney attendees are the ones who suffer from "supah sekrit pay2win" rules. And, unsurprisingly, they're the ones who keep voting to keep FW confined to "safe" zones like the Nova Narrative.

If you want your Thudd Guns or whatever in tournaments, the best way to get that started is to actually go. Big, 40 page internet arguments are fun to read, but ultimately futile. Go to events, contribute, try and run your own. Join the community and changing things gets a lot easier.

 Vaktathi wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Mr. Burning wrote:
Fw is any more OP to some than Helldrakes, Tides, Cron air, and the ubiquitous Vendetta spam.

I'm not afraid of triple Heldrakes, Vendetta spam, Cron Air, and I haven't faced more than 2 Riptides but I'm not afraid of them either.

A well built IG list using FW rules scares the crap out of me.

As previously noted, kill the Ld lynchpin, abuse the ld7 of the artillery units and/or move to engage in CC, and control the board (the list will be very static). The new Eldar are very good at engaging this sort of list.

I never said I don't know how to beat it. I said it scares me more than anything else.
And that'd be great if I played Eldar. I don't. I play Nids.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 whembly wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
A well built IG list using FW rules scares the crap out of me.

Really?

I can see a fast moving army can take on FW IG: Drop pod list, Deathwing Terminators, Ravenwing... shoot... if I went first, my old assault DE list can survive a turn and get into assaults by turn 2.

Really. I haven't played against one (my meta is pretty anti-FW) but mathhammer looks really bad for me.

hyv3mynd wrote:
Call it petty if that makes you feel better. I'm not stopping anyone from using any models if you actually read what I said. ]I'm not a TO making those sorts of calls.

No, but that's evading my point, which is you'd be in favor of not allowing people to use their 40k models because your particular faction doesn't get as many.

I even said I support our local FW events because players around here use moderation. If things got out of control with sabre/thudd spam, I would withdraw my support but I wouldn't force others to play a certain way.

Why would the same not in turn apply to things like vendettas spam or the like however? I'm not saying that people should always run gobs of lascannon sabres or full HS slots full of thudd guns, I don't even own either model, but it seems that there's an arbitrary double-standard being applied here based off an incorrect assumption that codex books are created with equal unit counts with similar choices, which just isn't true.

 Vaktathi wrote:

hyv3mynd wrote:
Call it petty if that makes you feel better. I'm not stopping anyone from using any models if you actually read what I said. ]I'm not a TO making those sorts of calls.

No, but that's evading my point, which is you'd be in favor of not allowing people to use their 40k models because your particular faction doesn't get as many.

I even said I support our local FW events because players around here use moderation. If things got out of control with sabre/thudd spam, I would withdraw my support but I wouldn't force others to play a certain way.

Why would the same not in turn apply to things like vendettas spam or the like however? I'm not saying that people should always run gobs of lascannon sabres or full HS slots full of thudd guns, I don't even own either model, but it seems that there's an arbitrary double-standard being applied here based off an incorrect assumption that codex books are created with equal unit counts with similar choices, which just isn't true.

I respectfully disagree.

Every army receives a codex which contains several HQ, Elites, Troops, FA, and HS options. The numbers may not all be equal, but every army receives this treatment.

Now tell me exactly how many IG units have the 40k approved stamp compared to Tyranids. The competitiveness of the units matters not to me. It's the fact that you can play 40k with a rulebook, codex, and models off the shelf in any game store. FW is an expansion that isn't needed or mentioned in the BRB, codex, has no presence in a typical gaming store, and doesn't treat each and EVERY army with the same unit selections as core codexes.

It doesn't apply to vendetta spam because it's a codex FA unit. Every army has codex FA units they can choose to spam. Not every army has similar FW variety or selections.

 Danny Internets wrote:
This is a demonstrably false statement. Others have cited evidence countless times in this thread and others. Perhaps you mean that there is zero evidence which you personally deem satisfactory, which is another matter entirely. Any such statement would, of course, be completely meaningless without defining your parameters for satisfaction.

You have a rather unconventional definition of "demonstrably false" and "evidence". So far we don't have tournament results showing that certain units are overpowered, we have theory and speculation about how they might be overpowered. And of course we also have an endless list of excuses for why it doesn't really count when there's a FW-legal tournament that isn't dominated by FW units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 hyv3mynd wrote:
It's the fact that you can play 40k with a rulebook, codex, and models off the shelf in any game store.

Since when? Or is your position that it's sufficient to be able to buy the rulebook, codex, and battleforce off the shelf even though trying to build a competitive army means buying lots of direct-only stuff, scratchbuilding conversions, etc?

FW is an expansion that isn't needed or mentioned in the BRB, codex, has no presence in a typical gaming store, and doesn't treat each and EVERY army with the same unit selections as core codexes.

No, according to GW it's a part of the standard game just like codices and their supplements. Which brings up a good point: are you in favor of allowing supplements in tournaments? After all, they aren't mentioned in the BRB/codex, you can't buy them at your FLGS, and they certainly aren't equally available to every army.

It doesn't apply to vendetta spam because it's a codex FA unit. Every army has codex FA units they can choose to spam. Not every army has similar FW variety or selections.

Who cares where a unit comes from? What matters is the overall power level of the army and whether or not it is balanced.

 Peregrine wrote:


No, according to GW it's a part of the standard game just like codices and their supplements.

Which, as usual, is a wrong statement. FW is NOT part of the standard game, it's an add-on. "40k approved" units can be used in standard 40k games (as stated right below the stamp) but they aren't part of the "core" 40k.

 Sigvatr wrote:
Which, as usual, is a wrong statement. FW is NOT part of the standard game, it's an add-on. "40k approved" units can be used in standard 40k games (as stated right below the stamp) but they aren't part of the "core" 40k.

GW disagrees with you.

 Peregrine wrote:


Who cares where a unit comes from? What matters is the overall power level of the army and whether or not it is balanced.

You're confusing my argument with someone else's. I'm not arguing against FW because of overpowered units. I'm arguing against it because it's an entire sub-company dedicated to imperial armies while xenos get the shaft as far as number of units added and quality of units added.

If FW treated every army equally with a "FW codex" or similar supplement for every single army with a similar number of unit options, I would support it. Right now, FW is "play imperial or go away".

rigeld2 wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 whembly wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
A well built IG list using FW rules scares the crap out of me.

Really?

I can see a fast moving army can take on FW IG: Drop pod list, Deathwing Terminators, Ravenwing... shoot... if I went first, my old assault DE list can survive a turn and get into assaults by turn 2.

Really. I haven't played against one (my meta is pretty anti-FW) but mathhammer looks really bad for me.

It's not an auto-lose dude.

Case in point. I recently played in a tournament where the winner did have thudd gunz and sabre lascannons. Hear me out...

This player really didn't want to play against a dual Ravenwing/Death wing list. (well, from memory one squad of termies and rest bikes/speeders). Fortunately, he didn't face the DA player... because if the DA player has first turn, he can neuter the thudd guns by scouting forward and on first turn, turn the bikes side-ways and be 1" away. The cupcake template wouldn't be able to land w/o touching his own unit.

Another list he really didn't want to play was a 5 (or 6) Landraider BA spam. The only reason he still won that game, was that the terrain was stacked to his favor... there were terrain pieces all over the place, such that the LR player had to roll for dangerous terrain multiple times per movement phase... thus, immobilising himself more often than not.

I was playing CSM+Deamon allies... I was chopping at the bit to get matched up to him as I could deepstrike half my army easily. *shrugs*

I'm easy to play against 'cuz, I'm like... "BRING IT BRAH!"


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Clauss wrote:
3 thudd guns is not by any means. Moar funs.

See... this makes me want to build a list to take one down AND be as TAC as possible.

To me, that's part of the fun.

 hyv3mynd wrote:
I'm arguing against it because it's an entire sub-company dedicated to imperial armies while xenos get the shaft as far as number of units added and quality of units added.

Which is a bad argument because Tau, Eldar and Necrons also get very good units (for example, the Barracuda makes a joke of the codex Tau flyers). They don't get the same total number of units, but that doesn't really mean very much when the Imperial total is inflated by a bunch of useless marine characters and IG tank variants nobody will ever use outside of fluffy scenario games.

 Peregrine wrote:

 hyv3mynd wrote:
I'm arguing against it because it's an entire sub-company dedicated to imperial armies while xenos get the shaft as far as number of units added and quality of units added.

Which is a bad argument because Tau, Eldar and Necrons also get very good units (for example, the Barracuda makes a joke of the codex Tau flyers). They don't get the same total number of units, but that doesn't really mean very much when the Imperial total is inflated by a bunch of useless marine characters and IG tank variants nobody will ever use outside of fluffy scenario games.

No, it's a bad argument because you say it is. Just like I claim your arguments are poor at best.

I'm not going on a good unit vs bad unit basis, even if IG get 100 units that competitive players overlook. It's the fact that FW produces 100 units for one army and 20 for another. That portion of GW is invested in supplying imperial units to imperial players. And like I said, until they TREAT every army equally, they will always get a "no" vote from me. GW gives every army a full codex with between 2 and 8 options for every FO slot, why can't FW? It's because that company has an extremely heavy imperial bias and bias doesn't belong in a tournament.

It's also very interesting to me that the most vocal and active "pro-FW" advocates in this very thread are IG players.

 Sigvatr wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:


No, according to GW it's a part of the standard game just like codices and their supplements.

Which, as usual, is a wrong statement. FW is NOT part of the standard game, it's an add-on. "40k approved" units can be used in standard 40k games (as stated right below the stamp) but they aren't part of the "core" 40k.

You know, I looked in my "core" battle book, I did not see a mention of a electronic supplement there... to paraphrase from the Great movie 'The Treasure of the Sierra Madres.' 'Electronic Supplements? We ain't got no Electronic Supplements. We don't need no Electronic Supplements! I don't have to show you any stinkin' Electronic Supplements!

Somehow, putting the words "40 Approved" in instead makes that line OK to folks even though both are approved for 40K... Isn't that special.....

http://www.maniacworld.com/we-dont-need-no-stinking-badges.html

The supplement is an add on as well, that's where the word "supplement" comes in. They are both legal for 40k....

hyv3mynd wrote:
I respectfully disagree.

Every army receives a codex which contains several HQ, Elites, Troops, FA, and HS options. The numbers may not all be equal, but every army receives this treatment.

I guess my response to this would be, can you find me a Sisters of Battle codex? And we have multiple armies that had codex books and do no longer (e.g. Catachans, Squats, Assassins, etc), while FW also has full armies with full HQ/Elites/Troops/FA/HS and those are even less welcomed despite typically being better balanced than anything else.

Now tell me exactly how many IG units have the 40k approved stamp compared to Tyranids.

Lots more, but why is that relevant? They have more than half again as many codex units than Tyranids do as well and that doesn't appear to be a problem.

The competitiveness of the units matters not to me. It's the fact that you can play 40k with a rulebook, codex, and models off the shelf in any game store.

You can't get all the models in many game stores (many are direct only), some armies aren't available at all in game stores outside of special orders (Sisters), some units still lack models (e.g. IG vets while SM vets have their own models, or Ymgarl Genestealers) or only have FW models even for codex entries (e.g. Hydra Flak tanks). Before the current Eldar codex the Nightspinner had been out for nearly 3 years as a core GW plastic kit, but no rules were anywhere to be found if you didn't snag the one WD it came out with, nobody had an issue with it (or the fact that Eldar got an additional new unit from WD, not much different than adding the Firestorm from Imperial Armour except that you can buy the IA book for more than a month).

FW is an expansion that isn't needed or mentioned in the BRB, codex, has no presence in a typical gaming store

Neither does it specifically spell out what armies, codex books, versions, etc what you can use. The rulebook doesn't spell out that Codex: Imperial Guard is legal or which of the 4 different books entitled Codex: Imperial Guard that have thus far been released are in fact legal. And again, I'd ask you to find a Sisters of Battle codex.

and doesn't treat each and EVERY army with the same unit selections as core codexes.

Why is that relevant? They're things that exist in the 40k universe meant to be portrayed in the game. The codex books don't treat each and every army the same either. Some get half a dozen troops like Tyranids, others only get two. Some armies have nearly 50 unit entries, others struggle to hit 30.

It doesn't apply to vendetta spam because it's a codex FA unit. Every army has codex FA units they can choose to spam. Not every army has similar FW variety or selections.

I ask...why it's relevant if all its doing is adding to the codex options? If they're already unequal and we're not concerned about it, why are we suddenly caring? Why was there no such care about White Dwarf units?

 hyv3mynd wrote:
It's the fact that FW produces 100 units for one army and 20 for another.

Now go count the total number of units in the IG and Tau codices. Once you've done so you can come back and demand that codex units be banned in tournaments.

That portion of GW is invested in supplying imperial units to imperial players.

And xenos units to xenos players. Seriously, you're completely ignoring the fact that Tau/Eldar/Necrons have powerful FW options that their players would love to use in tournaments.

GW gives every army a full codex with between 2 and 8 options for every FO slot, why can't FW?

Because they'd rather do a good job of making new models instead of rushing out a bunch of garbage for the sake of "fairness".

It's also very interesting to me that the most vocal and active "pro-FW" advocates in this very thread are IG players.

I also play Tau, and my Tau army loves its FW units. In fact, before the new codex, FW units were the only thing keeping it even remotely competitive.

It's also very interesting to me that the most vocal and active "pro-FW" advocates in this very thread are IG players.

Well, I'd pull out my sisters army but I can not seem to get a GW Codex codex for it.....I keep getting stares when I pull out 2 White Dwarf magazines that are falling apart.....

Total units in C:SM: 45

Total units in C:Tau: 25

BAN CODEX UNITS FROM TOURNAMENTS. IMPERIAL BIAS!!!

hyv3mynd wrote:

It's also very interesting to me that the most vocal and active "pro-FW" advocates in this very thread are IG players.

I happen to play IG, I also just happen to play other armies

 NeedleOfInquiry wrote:

It's also very interesting to me that the most vocal and active "pro-FW" advocates in this very thread are IG players.

Well, I'd pull out my sisters army but I can not seem to get a GW Codex for it.....I keep getting stares when I pull out 2 White Dwarf magazines that are falling apart.....

In point of fact I actually have more points and money in Sisters than I do in IG or Forge World...far more...

My Grey knights Inquisitional army which I had to covert once 6th edition came out is almost as large as my IG


It's a fairness issue...

 NeedleOfInquiry wrote:
It's a fairness issue...

Total units in C:SM: 45

Total units in C:Tau: 25

BAN CODEX UNITS FROM TOURNAMENTS. IMPERIAL BIAS!!!

 whembly wrote:
It's not an auto-lose dude.

I didn't say it was ... ? I said I was scared of it. As in - it's possible for me to win but it would take exceptional luck/stupidity from my opponent. And I use a low model count Nid army - horde Nids are essentially auto-lose.

This player really didn't want to play against a dual Ravenwing/Death wing list. (well, from memory one squad of termies and rest bikes/speeders). Fortunately, he didn't face the DA player... because if the DA player has first turn, he can neuter the thudd guns by scouting forward and on first turn, turn the bikes side-ways and be 1" away. The cupcake template wouldn't be able to land w/o touching his own unit.

That's not true. The bikes are 1" away, the base of the bike is about an inch thick. Placing the center of the "cupcake" marker at the edge of the bike means you're short of hitting your own unit.
Or are you under the mistaken impression that the center of the marker must be centered on the target's base?

Another list he really didn't want to play was a 5 (or 6) Landraider BA spam. The only reason he still won that game, was that the terrain was stacked to his favor... there were terrain pieces all over the place, such that the LR player had to roll for dangerous terrain multiple times per movement phase... thus, immobilising himself more often than not.

Then it wasn't a well built IG army. Tanks are something that IG just should never be afraid of.

I was playing CSM+Deamon allies... I was chopping at the bit to get matched up to him as I could deepstrike half my army easily. *shrugs*

Deep Striking is actually the thing you really don't want to do. If you fire, you're in perfect "Own me now" position for all the blasts. If you run and spread out a) you can roll a 1 b) you caused no casualties for 2 turns with that unit.

While the pro-FW strike team in this thread has great witty comebacks, I haven't actually seen a single presentation that would convince someone who is against FW in tournaments to change their stance.

All I've seen is:

"40k approved, I don't need permission"

and

"Codexes already have broken units, so what's the problem with including more?"

Any arguments that would actually convince a tyranid player push his local TO to change tournament formats?

 hyv3mynd wrote:
While the pro-FW strike team in this thread, has great witty comebacks, I haven't actually seen a single presentation that would convince someone who is against FW in tournaments to change their stance.

All I've seen is:

"40k approved, I don't need permission"

and

"Codexes already have broken units, so what's the problem with including more?"

Any arguments that would actually convince a tyranid player push his local TO to change tournament formats?

Even w/out the Tyranid subcomponent, this feels fairly accurate. You can say it until you are blue in the face, but a large mass of players, and the fairly obvious "status quo" is not pro-FW, and does not see FW as an OBVIOUS part of 40k rules that everyone needs to just accept and play.

Taking the stance that it *already is* fully accepted and used everywhere by "normal" 40k players and should be accepted by tournaments of all kinds and formats, and that any tournament that doesn't is somehow outlawing part of the "basic" game ... is an ineffective stance to take, b/c it doesn't resonate even really with those who are putting it forth (or else, why argue so hard?).

You are more likely to be effective trying to persuade the masses who do not routinely see it or play with it that it SHOULD BE, and is fun to use, and no more expensive, and has no broken units, and has fun things for every codex to enjoy, etc., etc., than basically saying "If you don't use it, you're obviously just not aware of the rules that say it is an automatic must-use part of the game!!!!!!"