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 zephoid wrote:
.... People really dont read do they. Someone stated that the cron codex was bitched about at first also. However, things like the Doom scythe and Wraiths were overlooked by many players until 6th for the doom scythe and the new wraith models for the wraiths. The eldar codex really doesnt have many "must takes" like those two models. He is pointing that out.

your right. We have too many.

I mean looking at our fast attack we have the crimson hunter, warp spiders, shining spears. While Hawks, the hemlock bomber, and the vypers just need some play testing in order to find their uses.

For heavy we got: Dark Reapers, Fire Prism, Night Spinner, WW, WL and I just need to playtest the WK a little bit more ( I am liking him a lot atm) along with the support batteries.

Elite? Well Scorpions sure as hell have found their place in the codex, harlequins as usual, WG and I could care less about blades. While Fragons have lost a lil bit of their place in the codex with banshees, we really shouldn't discount them until we see if they have any potential.

Troops? I think we already know about them plenty.

Hq? I think everyone except for maybe 2 Phoenix lords and Yriel are ready to go in the codex.

So yes, we have too many options. At least we have a TON of more options than we have had beforehand.

 zephoid wrote:
.... People really dont read do they. Someone stated that the cron codex was bitched about at first also. However, things like the Doom scythe and Wraiths were overlooked by many players until 6th for the doom scythe and the new wraith models for the wraiths. The eldar codex really doesnt have many "must takes" like those two models. He is pointing that out.

It's not about the "must takes" or units that are no-brainer-powerful. It's about looking at a codex and not seeing any strengths at all.
It's about bitching the whole codex is ruined and worst while completely ignoring the options that are good. And there are good options and they already have been stated here and in other topics that bloomed after codex release.
Just because it doesn't have "doom scythes" does not mean that it's "unplayable mess". It does not have to include those and at the same time not to be the worst thing ever.

None of those are must takes. The fact that you include the two fliers is incredible. Do you really think that a AV10 flier with no defensive equipment will perform? Then their are spears, which are still as bad as ever. Nightspinner is clearly outclassed. WW and vypers are overcosted and will fall apart if someone looks at them (seriously, does no one see how fragile AV10 is? i stopped running my scatter walkers and converted them to cannons as they die 1st turn every game. Now i wouldnt run them at all).

The HS slot and HQ slots are contested, but troop, elite, and FA are all full of mediocre-duds. That doesnt mean the codex is bad. I like a lot of changes to a lot of the aspects and only banshees are truly unusable, but a lot of the units simply wont see competitive play.

Edit: Find me where i call the codex unusable. Hell, find me where i call the codex bad. Dont put words in my mouth(fingers?). By pointing out we dont have any amazing units doesnt mean i dont like the codex.

 zephoid wrote:
None of those are must takes. The fact that you include the two fliers is incredible. Do you really think that a AV10 flier with no defensive equipment will perform? Then their are spears, which are still as bad as ever. Nightspinner is clearly outclassed. WW and vypers are overcosted and will fall apart if someone looks at them (seriously, does no one see how fragile AV10 is? i stopped running my scatter walkers and converted them to cannons as they die 1st turn every game. Now i wouldnt run them at all).

do you understand battle rights? hide your walkers out of LOS, then move them into LOS, shoot and run back out of LOS which you can reliably do because they have fleet.

You run 4" on average. If you roll anything less than average, you are in sight and your war walkers are dead. Also, hiding more than 1 war walker would require a much higher roll. Anything that can move even 6" can get line of sight on some of the back WW. Then you have barrage, fliers, skimmers, bikes, jump inf, good enemy positioning, lack of tall cover that can cover 3 WW, and so on. Keeping out of LOS for extended time is a dream.

 zephoid wrote:
None of those are must takes. The fact that you include the two fliers is incredible. Do you really think that a AV10 flier with no defensive equipment will perform? Then their are spears, which are still as bad as ever. Nightspinner is clearly outclassed. WW and vypers are overcosted and will fall apart if someone looks at them (seriously, does no one see how fragile AV10 is? i stopped running my scatter walkers and converted them to cannons as they die 1st turn every game. Now i wouldnt run them at all).

The HS slot and HQ slots are contested, but troop, elite, and FA are all full of mediocre-duds. That doesnt mean the codex is bad. I like a lot of changes to a lot of the aspects and only banshees are truly unusable, but a lot of the units simply wont see competitive play.

Edit: Find me where i call the codex unusable. Hell, find me where i call the codex bad. Dont put words in my mouth(fingers?). By pointing out we dont have any amazing units doesnt mean i dont like the codex.

Your accounting for things way too early w/o any testing. I counted the fliers for their potential and not their ability to survive.

WW are not as fragile as you might think (but if they are the only threat to your enemy then yes they will be gone), especially when I have a WK looming over the battlefield and everyone aims for it. If I go first and I have the WK and Scatter walkers...well just imagine units being pummeled and vehicles going WABOOM. Have you ever played with the nightspinner? That thing is crazy with the amount of power, range, and AoE it has.

Mediocre duds? Just because our range wasn't changed doesn't mean they don't have their uses. My first game with the codex proved how deadly shuriken weps are. The opponent dropped a unit of marines in front of me (after deviating) and when he reduced one of my 3 10 man squads to just 3 guardians and a Warlock I was kinda impressed. Then it became my turn and the pod along with the whole squad died. The drop pod died to the Avatar, while one squad of 10 reduced the 10 man squad to a measly 4 and had the other healthy squad mop em up. We are talking about guardians raping a squad of marines. One can only imagine the potential of other shuriken weps.

hmmm more duds,,,lets see....harlequins? not duds by any means, I mean 4 attacks on the charge with rending? SS? even a cynic like you has to admit they can clear a crowd to allow the harlies to blast through. WG? i don't see how they are mediocre at all. Blades? Ill give you that, but only for now until I see how they work out. Fragons? Are at the right price and you can just take em in a Scatter Falcon. Banshees? have potential, we just need to test them and see what their worth is.

Now for FA: How dare you call the Warp spiders mediocre. They are the shining aspect in FA. Speaking of shiny our fliers! We are AV10, BIG FREAKING WOOP. So we don't have the armor of humans, BIG FREAKING WOOP. So we have to use our brains while playing Eldar....NOTHING CHANGED THERE! The Crimson is fast as all hell and with vector dancer, can maneuver to go into the side or even the freaking rear of fliers, while doing that they can stay out of range of the next wave of fliers(if cron air) or the AA on the ground. Our bomber? No surprise there with the track record of bombers these days. Just need to test out its weapon potential to see if it is really cracked up to anything (comboing it with the -ld power would be a great start as well). Swooping hawks need to be tested, but I can see their potential already. Spears and Vypers have both improved and can be great additions if used right. The trick is to finding what they are for.

Just like the 4th ed. codex we need to use our brains and figure out synergy all over again. No one unit is going to out shine the other because THEY ALL DO ONE THING AND ONE THING ONLY. A lot of people don't get that. Whats great about our codex is that even the worst unit on paper can kick on the field because someone found out that there is a use for them. It is just about rolling with the punches and hitting harder back with speed and tactics that other armies don't need as much of.

GTKA666 wrote:
No one unit is going to out shine the other because THEY ALL DO ONE THING AND ONE THING ONLY.

Except Warp Spiders. Warp Spiders do everything .

We are talking about guardians raping a squad of marines

3 squads of guardians , supported by an avatar should always kill a 10 man meq unit . If they wouldn't then there would realy be a problem. Besides you were realy supprised that when a single marine unit drop in front of a 4 unit formation the marines die? Unless it was some fire magnet tactics I dont see why would anyone drop or use a single pod. Maybe if it was a suicide unit , but why waste the shoting on a unit of guardians then ?


How big are the tables you play on , that you can stay of range of intereceptors and other flyers.

The problem with anything that isnt a wrighguard is that it is too random too use because of weapons range and how offten drakes or simiular are used.

Spears are bad because of the number of attacks they have , vypers are nice with the change made to shuriken weapons , but they still cost a lot .


and night spinners to be effective would require 6x6 boards or larger and tons of LoS blocking terrain.

Personally, I'm finding the Eldar codex to be very one-dimensional, and possibly overpowered. Jetbikes are just too cheap, now. Running 24 GJBs was a lot, before. That was all of my troops. It barely scratches the surface, now. I'm contemplating running 54 of them, while still having plenty or room to round out my lists. Honestly, I don't want to buy 30 more jetbikes (300 bucks MORE in jetbikes? lolno.), so GW can suck it, but it seems like a very reasonable thing to do. I can't imagine running anything else when the jetbikes are sooooo nasty.

JB_Man wrote:
Personally, I'm finding the Eldar codex to be very one-dimensional, and possibly overpowered. Jetbikes are just too cheap, now. Running 24 GJBs was a lot, before. That was all of my troops. It barely scratches the surface, now. I'm contemplating running 54 of them, while still having plenty or room to round out my lists. Honestly, I don't want to buy 30 more jetbikes (300 bucks MORE in jetbikes? lolno.), so GW can suck it, but it seems like a very reasonable thing to do. I can't imagine running anything else when the jetbikes are sooooo nasty.

I just bought six to get started on. It's really depressing to pay $80 for two boxes of minis, then open them to find "copyright 1994" on all the sprue...

Ugh. My eldar have gigantic 2nd edition heads.

Quick question:

Does anyone know what the errata was for? On page 63 under the weapon profile everything looks fine for the Shadow weaver.

-Dinkins

It's for the reference page at the back. The reference in the printed codex has Large Blast instead of just Blast.

Makumba wrote:

We are talking about guardians raping a squad of marines

3 squads of guardians , supported by an avatar should always kill a 10 man meq unit . If they wouldn't then there would realy be a problem. Besides you were realy supprised that when a single marine unit drop in front of a 4 unit formation the marines die? Unless it was some fire magnet tactics I dont see why would anyone drop or use a single pod. Maybe if it was a suicide unit , but why waste the shoting on a unit of guardians then ?


How big are the tables you play on , that you can stay of range of intereceptors and other flyers.

The problem with anything that isnt a wrighguard is that it is too random too use because of weapons range and how offten drakes or simiular are used.

Spears are bad because of the number of attacks they have , vypers are nice with the change made to shuriken weapons , but they still cost a lot .


and night spinners to be effective would require 6x6 boards or larger and tons of LoS blocking terrain.

The avatar hit the drop pod and only 2 guardians hit the meq squad. He planned on getting behind my lines and hit my WK I think, but I really have no idea as to what he was doing except to see how the weapons matched up seeing as to how he could have done things a lot differently. He even dropped his termies in a far off place that only the WK could get to. I also haven't really faced marines much and it was surprising how effective the new "rending" is because 3+ saves are just brutal.

I play on standard 6x4 tables and Spinners are effective on 6x4. You just need to deploy it just right, so that people are aware that it is there, but can't really reach it because if they try, they die .




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MandalorynOranj wrote:

GTKA666 wrote:
No one unit is going to out shine the other because THEY ALL DO ONE THING AND ONE THING ONLY.

Except Warp Spiders. Warp Spiders do everything .

Correct sir. Spiders do one thing and one thing only...Rape...

 zephoid wrote:
WW and vypers are overcosted and will fall apart if someone looks at them (seriously, does no one see how fragile AV10 is? i stopped running my scatter walkers and converted them to cannons as they die 1st turn every game.

Well as far as Shuriwalkers go, for 40 more points for the squad they've gained +1bs, a 5++, psuedorending and Battlefocus. 180pts for a unit that outflanks with 18 bs4 s6 rending shots. Thats hardly poor, even if they do have durability issues. Far as Scatterwalkers go, I'm waiting to see what the FAQ says about two lots of laserlock weapons on a model, but again they're only 30pts a unit more than they used to be and they gain so so much.

Brightlance Walker squads are still bad however.

 Farseer_Kaiser wrote:

 zephoid wrote:
WW and vypers are overcosted and will fall apart if someone looks at them (seriously, does no one see how fragile AV10 is? i stopped running my scatter walkers and converted them to cannons as they die 1st turn every game.

Well as far as Shuriwalkers go, for 40 more points for the squad they've gained +1bs, a 5++, psuedorending and Battlefocus. 180pts for a unit that outflanks with 18 bs4 s6 rending shots. Thats hardly poor, even if they do have durability issues. Far as Scatterwalkers go, I'm waiting to see what the FAQ says about two lots of laserlock weapons on a model, but again they're only 30pts a unit more than they used to be and they gain so so much.

Brightlance Walker squads are still bad however.

Laser Lock rule is clear on models with multiple Scatter Lasers - you fire them fire, all at once, so you can't TL the second with the first. Only works with different weapons.

With that in mind - I was thinking about giving mine a SL and a Bright Lance - same price as two SLs, but you get a twin linked anti-tank in the mix. Give them Star Engines as well (expensive I know) and you have a very powerful hit than can move out of cover, fire and has a guaranteed 4" move back in, so you should probably be able to keep them in cover almost the whole game (depending on your opponents movements of course). Makes them 85 points each though... Or give them holo-fields instead/as well, so they can be rocking a 3-4+ cover save all game...

Gotta say though, even with the 5+ they die quickly :(

Making them open-topped again was just mean, I mean the power field is supposed to be just as good as actual armour.

The avatar hit the drop pod and only 2 guardians hit the meq squad.

Because the third one was almost dead . I get it . Doesn't change the fact that a meq drop pod attacked 3 units of guardians with support. That is a stupid thing to do , unless someone wants to destroy a very specific target , which doesn't seem to have happened here. Now If let us say the pod droped and had a unit made to kill the avatar and then die , Then we could say that the meq unit did his job and then died what was expected from it . But what realy happened was a meq unit do a kamikaze drop , not even going a kill point or first blood and then get wiped out.
If he did the same to a Tyranid army with 3 steal squads and a prime , we wouldnt say that the stealers are good this edition because a single squad of meqs got killed by them ?

The range is a huge , no go factor for me as far as the eldar guardians goes. It maybe 18+run technicly , but on turn one the guardians do nothing and out of transports they die even easier then my IG , because my IG aren't trying to get within 18" of an opponent unit . Eldar can of course fix the range problem by runing wave serpents for their guardians , but at that point I may as well take DA with extra range and less random influence on game play.

Farseer_Kaiser wrote:

 zephoid wrote:
WW and vypers are overcosted and will fall apart if someone looks at them (seriously, does no one see how fragile AV10 is? i stopped running my scatter walkers and converted them to cannons as they die 1st turn every game.

Brightlance Walker squads are still bad however.

Walkers and Vypers can be kept alive with various combinations of terrain, Outflank, Battle Focus, Jink or Fortune. Plus the obvious "keep them away from anything dangerous". Most weapon options are 36" meaning they don't need to be in assault or bolter range of their target. You can also be clever with the 6e allocation rules, such as buying Holofields for a single Vyper in a squadron and keeping him nearest the enemy. In the end they're not too different from the rest of the Eldar codex - hard-hitting but vulnerable under anything more that light fire.

And why do you think Brightlance Walkers are bad? The weapon is only 5pts now, and that's six S8 AP2 lance shots at BS4. Waaaaaaaay better than paying 30pts per weapon at BS3. They will out-damage 2 Fire Prisms and cost 40pts less for the trouble. With the amount of W4+ MC's running around these days, that much firepower can come in handy.

JB_Man wrote:Personally, I'm finding the Eldar codex to be very one-dimensional, and possibly overpowered. Jetbikes are just too cheap, now. Running 24 GJBs was a lot, before. That was all of my troops. It barely scratches the surface, now. I'm contemplating running 54 of them, while still having plenty or room to round out my lists. Honestly, I don't want to buy 30 more jetbikes (300 bucks MORE in jetbikes? lolno.), so GW can suck it, but it seems like a very reasonable thing to do. I can't imagine running anything else when the jetbikes are sooooo nasty.

Just because one unit is particularly good, does not mean GW is forcing you to max out your list with them. There are plenty of other solid Troops choices. You could experiment with those instead of trying to build a WAAC list then complaining it involves spending money.

 xttz wrote:

Farseer_Kaiser wrote:

 zephoid wrote:
WW and vypers are overcosted and will fall apart if someone looks at them (seriously, does no one see how fragile AV10 is? i stopped running my scatter walkers and converted them to cannons as they die 1st turn every game.

Brightlance Walker squads are still bad however.

Walkers and Vypers can be kept alive with various combinations of terrain, Outflank, Battle Focus, Jink or Fortune. Plus the obvious "keep them away from anything dangerous". Most weapon options are 36" meaning they don't need to be in assault or bolter range of their target. You can also be clever with the 6e allocation rules, such as buying Holofields for a single Vyper in a squadron and keeping him nearest the enemy. In the end they're not too different from the rest of the Eldar codex - hard-hitting but vulnerable under anything more that light fire.

And why do you think Brightlance Walkers are bad? The weapon is only 5pts now, and that's six S8 AP2 lance shots at BS4. Waaaaaaaay better than paying 30pts per weapon at BS3. They will out-damage 2 Fire Prisms and cost 40pts less for the trouble. With the amount of W4+ MC's running around these days, that much firepower can come in handy.

JB_Man wrote:Personally, I'm finding the Eldar codex to be very one-dimensional, and possibly overpowered. Jetbikes are just too cheap, now. Running 24 GJBs was a lot, before. That was all of my troops. It barely scratches the surface, now. I'm contemplating running 54 of them, while still having plenty or room to round out my lists. Honestly, I don't want to buy 30 more jetbikes (300 bucks MORE in jetbikes? lolno.), so GW can suck it, but it seems like a very reasonable thing to do. I can't imagine running anything else when the jetbikes are sooooo nasty.

Just because one unit is particularly good, does not mean GW is forcing you to max out your list with them. There are plenty of other solid Troops choices. You could experiment with those instead of trying to build a WAAC list then complaining it involves spending money.

Of course GW isn't forcing anyone to run them. Just like GW didn't force anyone to run GK in 5th, or Cron Air in 6th. Oh wait.

JB_Man wrote:
Personally, I'm finding the Eldar codex to be very one-dimensional, and possibly overpowered. Jetbikes are just too cheap, now. Running 24 GJBs was a lot, before. That was all of my troops. It barely scratches the surface, now. I'm contemplating running 54 of them, while still having plenty or room to round out my lists. Honestly, I don't want to buy 30 more jetbikes (300 bucks MORE in jetbikes? lolno.), so GW can suck it, but it seems like a very reasonable thing to do. I can't imagine running anything else when the jetbikes are sooooo nasty.

How would 54 jetbikes win games? They're durable, but there are a lot of things they are useless against (str 4 weapons, not stellar in assault)...

Jetbikes certainly got better, but I'm confused about how they fill 1000 points in a competitive list

 xttz wrote:
And why do you think Brightlance Walkers are bad? The weapon is only 5pts now, and that's six S8 AP2 lance shots at BS4. Waaaaaaaay better than paying 30pts per weapon at BS3. They will out-damage 2 Fire Prisms and cost 40pts less for the trouble. With the amount of W4+ MC's running around these days, that much firepower can come in handy..

Ok, maybe I was a bit hasty about that one, but you'll get so much more mileage out of Fireprisms that I think they're a much better take, also Prisms is the same number of Hull Points, but AV12 and nearly double the range. 210pts for 6 shots on a av10 frame just a bit hard to swallow, I think Walkers are best left to mowing down infantry and light vehicles and heavy fire support left to other units in the codex (god knows we have enough choice!)

jcress410 wrote:

JB_Man wrote:
Personally, I'm finding the Eldar codex to be very one-dimensional, and possibly overpowered. Jetbikes are just too cheap, now. Running 24 GJBs was a lot, before. That was all of my troops. It barely scratches the surface, now. I'm contemplating running 54 of them, while still having plenty or room to round out my lists. Honestly, I don't want to buy 30 more jetbikes (300 bucks MORE in jetbikes? lolno.), so GW can suck it, but it seems like a very reasonable thing to do. I can't imagine running anything else when the jetbikes are sooooo nasty.

How would 54 jetbikes win games? They're durable, but there are a lot of things they are useless against (str 4 weapons, not stellar in assault)...

Jetbikes certainly got better, but I'm confused about how they fill 1000 points in a competitive list

When coupled with the Runes of Battle powers the Jetbikes have a good chance of being a very hard to kill unit. They do well enough in assault, especially if you attach some independant characters. Their big niche is their speed and points cost for a 3+ save, tough 4...with the possibility of being +1 armor save or Shrouded on their jinks.

Makumba wrote:

The avatar hit the drop pod and only 2 guardians hit the meq squad.

Because the third one was almost dead . I get it . Doesn't change the fact that a meq drop pod attacked 3 units of guardians with support. That is a stupid thing to do , unless someone wants to destroy a very specific target , which doesn't seem to have happened here. Now If let us say the pod droped and had a unit made to kill the avatar and then die , Then we could say that the meq unit did his job and then died what was expected from it . But what realy happened was a meq unit do a kamikaze drop , not even going a kill point or first blood and then get wiped out.
If he did the same to a Tyranid army with 3 steal squads and a prime , we wouldnt say that the stealers are good this edition because a single squad of meqs got killed by them ?

The range is a huge , no go factor for me as far as the eldar guardians goes. It maybe 18+run technicly , but on turn one the guardians do nothing and out of transports they die even easier then my IG , because my IG aren't trying to get within 18" of an opponent unit . Eldar can of course fix the range problem by runing wave serpents for their guardians , but at that point I may as well take DA with extra range and less random influence on game play.

Go ahead and roll how many meqs die to guardian fire....from BS3 and then compare it to the new BS4 "rending" guardians. Like I said he was probably wondering how the new Eldar stacked up because he played Eldar as well.

jcress410 wrote:

JB_Man wrote:
Personally, I'm finding the Eldar codex to be very one-dimensional, and possibly overpowered. Jetbikes are just too cheap, now. Running 24 GJBs was a lot, before. That was all of my troops. It barely scratches the surface, now. I'm contemplating running 54 of them, while still having plenty or room to round out my lists. Honestly, I don't want to buy 30 more jetbikes (300 bucks MORE in jetbikes? lolno.), so GW can suck it, but it seems like a very reasonable thing to do. I can't imagine running anything else when the jetbikes are sooooo nasty.

How would 54 jetbikes win games? They're durable, but there are a lot of things they are useless against (str 4 weapons, not stellar in assault)...

Jetbikes certainly got better, but I'm confused about how they fill 1000 points in a competitive list

Don't forget the Shuriken Cannons at str 6. Insanely mobile, scoring heavy hitters. Maybe 54 is an exaggeration, but they're way over the top at almost the same price as a basic marine... I could see it happen.

Wraithknights are nearly unkillable., Bring instant death weapons to the party.

 Jancoran wrote:
Wraithknights are nearly unkillable., Bring instant death weapons to the party.

they are not unkillable. They just know how to draw the fire to em.

GTKA666 wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
Wraithknights are nearly unkillable., Bring instant death weapons to the party.

they are not unkillable. They just know how to draw the fire to em.

I think he was using humour. Like getting a forceweapon inot combat with it. Bit o' biomancy can help a long way, too.

 DeffDred wrote:

GTKA666 wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
Wraithknights are nearly unkillable., Bring instant death weapons to the party.

they are not unkillable. They just know how to draw the fire to em.

I think he was using humour. Like getting a forceweapon inot combat with it. Bit o' biomancy can help a long way, too.

if Eldar had access to biomancy...all the Tyranid players would quit playing rofl...and their rage would feed me for years on end.

 Phazael wrote:
Had a big long rant from 14 years of built up nerd rage of every marine whine causing the army to be repeatedly nerfed, but let me sum this up in five thoughts:..... This should surprise me, but every book since the Eldar debuted has been a giant nerf loaded love letter to MEQ books.

Erm, just to correct this point, which others missed correcting you on.

Are you SERIOUSLY claiming that 4th edition Eldar, when it debuted, was a "nerf" ? One of the most fundamentally broken books of 4th edition, which exploited every single rule it could do (SMF, rending, skimmers LOS, glancing table) to create a nearly unkillable army was a nerf? Really?

Others have covered your other inaccuracies, however I could not let this one lie uncontested.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 Phazael wrote:
Had a big long rant from 14 years of built up nerd rage of every marine whine causing the army to be repeatedly nerfed, but let me sum this up in five thoughts:..... This should surprise me, but every book since the Eldar debuted has been a giant nerf loaded love letter to MEQ books.

Erm, just to correct this point, which others missed correcting you on.

Are you SERIOUSLY claiming that 4th edition Eldar, when it debuted, was a "nerf" ? One of the most fundamentally broken books of 4th edition, which exploited every single rule it could do (SMF, rending, skimmers LOS, glancing table) to create a nearly unkillable army was a nerf? Really?

Others have covered your other inaccuracies, however I could not let this one lie uncontested.

Yeah, 4th ed Eldar was insane. I swear that the Harlequins were designed solely to take advantage of the rending and the "consolidate into a new target" rules