New Eldar Tactics - Iyanden update added to 1st page

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**Powerguy**

ansacs wrote:
Actually you are ignoring the S9 lance mode that is one of the best ways to kill AV 13+ in the codex.

Not that I entirely disagree with you almost every unit in the HS slot is great in the right list (except arguably the knight).

Yeah the Lance profile is great, particularly when you factor in the huge range. Being able to sit in the back corner out of range of most weapons and deal with heavy armour lets it fill that role much better than the Falcon (its doesn't even really need Holos either). For me the range is the biggest advantage, for the most part Eldar look like they will be a close range army, which most of their burst damage happening inside of 12" from Catapults and D Scythes. The only long range options are Serpents (imo not cheap enough/punchy enough to rely on as your main source of firepower) and everything in the heavy slots, which is what makes it such a competitive slot.

Imo the Knight is definitely viable, have found it has done fine so far with the standard 2 S10 shots (Guided most of the time). The biggest advantage it has is that it has 2 units worth of firepower (similar to 2 Prisms for similar cost, but doesn't factor in the added durability and assault threat the Knight has) but only takes up a single slot, which is great in a hugely overcrowded Heavy section.

It might just be the way my local meta is at the moment, but I am thinking that the Nightspinner is the best tank in the heavy slot. S8 against vehicles hitting side armour is very nice against the occasion Guard parking lot that shows up (or can hurt the Manticores that tend to hide at the back in the Blob lists) and is enough for it to be viable as an anti tank option of sorts. The main advantage of course is the fact that you get S8 against a large number of popular multi wound models, you ID Wraiths, Nobz and Tau Battlesuits. You can also ID the Marine characters leading Guard blobs, since the majority I is 3, probably not going to happen against the tougher characters like Azreal (who have 2+ saves, so would have to fail two 2+'s in a row) but quite possible against Librarians and Rune Priests. Either way its worth a shot, you still end up killing Guardsmen either way.

**MandalorynOranj**

DarknessEternal wrote:
MandalorynOranj wrote:
DarknessEternal wrote:
Surprisingly, Falcon w/ Scatter Laser, Shuriken Cannon, and Holo-field is also one of the only vehicle options to go down in points with this codex. It's the dark horse of Heavy Support, as it's clearly the best vehicle, and probably no worse than the third best in slot at all (after Support Batteries and Dark Reapers).

Really, what makes you say that? I still prefer Fire Prisms and War Walkers, and Dark Reapers seem to have much improved, but I'd like to hear why you think Falcons and Batteries got so much better.

Batteries (at least the weaver/vibro variety) are absolutely the best place to shelter Farseers. With T7, Shouded, and plenty of throw away wounds, you aren't going to find a place that is cheap, safe, and effective. Three twin-linked lascannons doesn't hurt either.

Falcons are better than Fire Prisms, objectively. Prisms only offering is in the form of the large blast, as Pulse laser beats the single and small blast version unless you're talking about twin-linking it and firing it at a deep-striked regular Terminator formation (not Paladins nor storm shields). That situation just doesn't come up much. As far as the large blast goes, it's good at killing a bunch of marines. Well, any ponits you spend in the Eldar codex is roughly the same as any other points at Marine-killing duty.

Seriously, do the math on that. They couldn't have come up with a better internal balance on marine killing if they had done actual math (which we all know they certainly did not). So the only thing a Fire Prism is good at is the same thing nearly the rest of your army is also as good at.

War-walkers, yes, better, but also more expensive and easier to kill. Yep, they are easier to kill now than they used to be. No save and not opened top was tougher. Now they will be exploded by random bolters and close combat attacks, not just inevitably hull pointed by them. I'm not saying their trash, I'm saying they aren't as good as they used to be, nor are they better than Dark Reapers.

Having both reaper launchers and krak missiles on an infantry sized, 3+ save, mobile platform is just phenomenal. Sure, they are expensive, but that doesn't stop Broadsides from being good either. I'd rather have 5 Reapers (with a starshot, fast shot, night vision exarch) than 3 walkers for roughly the same cost. The only targets Walkers would be better on is double-lance vs AV 14, or side shots on vehicles. Nothing is good against AV14 from range, so better doesn't mean much, and, this is a personal preference, but I'd rather have the extra turn(s) on the Reapers, since outflanking is still gambling.

If you want to say "I think War Walkers are competitve and use them over any other Heavy," I wouldn't actually disagree with you. They're pretty good, and if that's your taste, we just differ on taste.

Fire Prisms are right out though.

Those are valid points for the most part. I think everything is certainly viable and good, but there are a few things I'd disagree with.

Fire Prisms certainly seem more attractive to me still than Falcons, simply because of their versatility. They have the capability to threaten tanks, hordes, and everything in between. To me, having this amount of versatility on one model leaves me with more room to specialize with the rest of my stuff, knowing that I'm at least a little less screwed if I lose one thing. So regardless of preference, I think it's unfair to say that they are "right out."

War Walkers also seem to have improved. I've always run them dual-SL and plan to continue doing so. They are 10 points more expensive per model, and for this you get a 5+ invul, one higher BS, Fleet, and Battle Focus. That seems worth it to me! I normally play them behind an Aegis anyway, so the invul just gives them extra protection vs. ignores cover weapons, assaults, or annoying Drop Podders sneaking in behind them. My Walkers typically die to Hull Points from small-arms fire before rolls are even made on the chart. That said, I found it easy before, and probably even easier now, to make sure my opponent has more pressing things to shoot at so they can stay safe and keep doing work.

I totally agree with you about Dark Reapers being awesome now, I'm glad to bring them out of retirement.

All that said, these opinions could very well change soon. My codex hasn't come in yet so I haven't gotten to actually try anything out yet (damn GW only giving Frontline half their preorders...) so these are all impressions from what I've been seeing here on Dakka, and not things I've seen on the table.

**DarknessEternal**

MandalorynOranj wrote:

Fire Prisms certainly seem more attractive to me still than Falcons, simply because of their versatility. They have the capability to threaten tanks, hordes, and everything in between.

So do Falcons.

MandalorynOranj wrote:
To me, having this amount of versatility on one model leaves me with more room to specialize with the rest of my stuff, knowing that I'm at least a little less screwed if I lose one thing. .

What if that one thing you lose is the prism cannon?

**Sasori**

DarknessEternal wrote:
MandalorynOranj wrote:

Fire Prisms certainly seem more attractive to me still than Falcons, simply because of their versatility. They have the capability to threaten tanks, hordes, and everything in between.

So do Falcons.

MandalorynOranj wrote:
To me, having this amount of versatility on one model leaves me with more room to specialize with the rest of my stuff, knowing that I'm at least a little less screwed if I lose one thing. .

What if that one thing you lose is the prism cannon?

The chances of loosing the prism cannon, before the Vehicle gets wrecked are very very slim. Assuming a 4+ cover save from holos, and the 2+ downgrade, it's almost a non factor.

The Prisim cannon also doesn't have to upgrade any of it's weapons, unlike the falcon, and can preform it's varity of rules given any game. So, you end up with a cheaper, All comers unit with significantly better range. This puts it ahead of the Falcon, IMO.

**GTKA666**

What we forget though is that the falcon can have people in the carriage that can melt tanks to the ground. So it really is like, do you want to be up close in their face? Or would you prefer to try to find the enemy from behind LOS blocking terrain? The plus and minuses are there. Just take one over the other depending on how you stack your army.

**wuestenfux**

GTKA666 wrote:
What we forget though is that the falcon can have people in the carriage that can melt tanks to the ground. So it really is like, do you want to be up close in their face? Or would you prefer to try to find the enemy from behind LOS blocking terrain? The plus and minuses are there. Just take one over the other depending on how you stack your army.

The Falcon is still a gun ship. I'd hesitate to get too close with it to the enemy since it can destroyed by massive S4 weapons in cc.
In the new edition, the Serpent seems to be the better gun ship thanks to the energy field.

**Shandara**

With CTM and Holofield and a squad with a shrouding warlock inside, flat out 30" to the enemy and blow something up with the field and enjoy a 2+ cover save.

It's just a shame that Wraithguard can't take warlocks anymore.

**Farseer_Kaiser**

With CTM and Holofield and a squad with a shrouding warlock inside, flat out 30" to the enemy and blow something up with the field and enjoy a 2+ cover save.

Sorry it doesn't work that way, it doesn't confer to the vehicle the unit is embarked on.

It's just a shame that Wraithguard can't take warlocks anymore.

Well, they kinda can: the Spiritseer. Much better chance of pulling off his powers and an extra one to boot. He's significantly better than two Warlocks, for the same points.

**Belly**

Shandara wrote:
With CTM and Holofield and a squad with a shrouding warlock inside, flat out 30" to the enemy and blow something up with the field and enjoy a 2+ cover save.

Pretty sure he can only cast conceal on his squad, not their transport.

I had a similiar idea about a 4+ coversave, and just casting fortune on the serpent before it flatout's.

**chelsea_hollywood**

Sasori wrote:
DarknessEternal wrote:
MandalorynOranj wrote:

Fire Prisms certainly seem more attractive to me still than Falcons, simply because of their versatility. They have the capability to threaten tanks, hordes, and everything in between.

So do Falcons.

MandalorynOranj wrote:
To me, having this amount of versatility on one model leaves me with more room to specialize with the rest of my stuff, knowing that I'm at least a little less screwed if I lose one thing. .

What if that one thing you lose is the prism cannon?

The chances of loosing the prism cannon, before the Vehicle gets wrecked are very very slim. Assuming a 4+ cover save from holos, and the 2+ downgrade, it's almost a non factor.

Prisms don't get the "downgrade to a glance on a 2+". Only Serpents get that.

Prism is still a solid choice, just worried about a single shot weapon (ie: Heavy 1) without TL. Every miss hurts so much more. sure you could leave a farseer to baby sit it w/ Guide/Prescience but that's almost the cost of a 2nd prism...

**Mandor**

Farseer_Kaiser wrote:
It's just a shame that Wraithguard can't take warlocks anymore.

Well, they kinda can: the Spiritseer. Much better chance of pulling off his powers and an extra one to boot. He's significantly better than two Warlocks, for the same points.

And with the Iyanden supplement, you can supposedly field 1-5 Spiritseers as a single HQ choice. Such a shame they lack Ghosthelms and you can't put them on Jetbikes, though. That would have made me very happy as ally to my DE force.

**pizzaguardian**

chelsea_hollywood wrote:

Prism is still a solid choice, just worried about a single shot weapon (ie: Heavy 1) without TL. Every miss hurts so much more. sure you could leave a farseer to baby sit it w/ Guide/Prescience but that's almost the cost of a 2nd prism...

That's why i plan to put 2 fire prisms!

I agree that fire prism is one of the more attracting heavy support choices for me. Moving 12" and still able to put the same kind of punishment with a 4+ cover save is well worth 150 points imo.

**sudojoe**

Uriels_Flame wrote:
sudojoe wrote:
Just some initial thoughts after playing a few test games with and against the new elder....

wave serpents are the bomb. Horribly hard to kill with that convert pens into glances and 4+ cover in the open

Two things here - how did you have yours equipped? I'm actually considering TL Bright Lances for mine, though the more oft TL SL is standard at this time.

Did you use the extra shield shots to any effect?

Still experimenting but I've been doing half and half of the sepeants with the SL and other with bright lances. I don't know if I'd go all in on one or the other. Gives me a little variety when I may face more tanks as opposed to hordes.

The Lances go after the more ranged shooting in horde lists and the SL go after soft fliers and infantry.
In the reverse on elite lists, both are somewhat good with one throwing on wounds and some able to force wounds. I personally enjoy the tactical flexibility

**Prophet of Khaine**

My Brothers in Khaine, hear me for I have been blessed with a profound vision of victory for our race. How many times have you had a game decided by 1 victory point? How many imes has that one point meant the difference between a win, draw or a loss? Our new codex has given us an answer so simple that it has been missed...until now. Everyone is talking about the direct overt path of brute strength and by this I mean shooting and assault, there is a indirect path to victory my Brothers......one model in one move will get you that 1 victory point. I am talking about the linebreaker vp and the model is any HQ that can take the Faolchu's Wing item from the Remnants of Glory. This blessed item gives the model with it a 48 inch run in the shooting phase. I will writ it again, a 48 inch run. Give this to your Farseer, Autharch or Spiritseer and on turm 5 you use it to run them into your opponents deployment zone for the linebreaker point. Since this is in the shooting phase you can still cast your psychic powers before to buff yourself and then run for it. You can also re-roll faild cover saves until your next turn just in case there is a turn 6 or seven. I call this the run forrestseer run move. Let me know what you think of this?

Peace, Love and Khaine.

**Quark**

Eldar are already the easiest army to get Linebreaker with. Spending 30 points to make it easier (and leave my HQ vulnerable if there's still Ignores Cover on the table) doesn't really appeal to me.

If I take Faolchu's Wing it will be planned to have much more use than just Linebreaker.

**jbunny**

I just realized how much better our deep strikers are. Hawks don't scatter, and after landing where they want, firing into a unit, they can then run and disperse to negate the effects of template weapons.

Also, if I remember right the Ranger HQ allows units outflanking to instead deep strike next to him with out scattering. Would this work for War walkers?

**PredaKhaine**

jbunny wrote:
I just realized how much better our deep strikers are. Hawks don't scatter, and after landing where they want, firing into a unit, they can then run and disperse to negate the effects of template weapons.

Don't forget, Hawks can also throw a haywire grenade. Give the exarch a hawks talon (st5), appear behind a tank (av10)and try to stop it functioning till you can shoot it with a proper unit

**shamikebab**

Prophet of Khaine wrote:
My Brothers in Khaine, hear me for I have been blessed with a profound vision of victory for our race. How many times have you had a game decided by 1 victory point? How many imes has that one point meant the difference between a win, draw or a loss? Our new codex has given us an answer so simple that it has been missed...until now. Everyone is talking about the direct overt path of brute strength and by this I mean shooting and assault, there is a indirect path to victory my Brothers......one model in one move will get you that 1 victory point. I am talking about the linebreaker vp and the model is any HQ that can take the Faolchu's Wing item from the Remnants of Glory. This blessed item gives the model with it a 48 inch run in the shooting phase. I will writ it again, a 48 inch run. Give this to your Farseer, Autharch or Spiritseer and on turm 5 you use it to run them into your opponents deployment zone for the linebreaker point. Since this is in the shooting phase you can still cast your psychic powers before to buff yourself and then run for it. You can also re-roll faild cover saves until your next turn just in case there is a turn 6 or seven. I call this the run forrestseer run move. Let me know what you think of this?

Peace, Love and Khaine.

Better yet , run into the enemy deployment zone and contest an objective

**CthuluIsSpy**

Prophet of Khaine wrote:
My Brothers in Khaine, hear me for I have been blessed with a profound vision of victory for our race. How many times have you had a game decided by 1 victory point? How many imes has that one point meant the difference between a win, draw or a loss? Our new codex has given us an answer so simple that it has been missed...until now. Everyone is talking about the direct overt path of brute strength and by this I mean shooting and assault, there is a indirect path to victory my Brothers......one model in one move will get you that 1 victory point. I am talking about the linebreaker vp and the model is any HQ that can take the Faolchu's Wing item from the Remnants of Glory. This blessed item gives the model with it a 48 inch run in the shooting phase. I will writ it again, a 48 inch run. Give this to your Farseer, Autharch or Spiritseer and on turm 5 you use it to run them into your opponents deployment zone for the linebreaker point. Since this is in the shooting phase you can still cast your psychic powers before to buff yourself and then run for it. You can also re-roll faild cover saves until your next turn just in case there is a turn 6 or seven. I call this the run forrestseer run move. Let me know what you think of this?

Peace, Love and Khaine.

That sounds really annoying. I like it

It does seem to be an Eldar sort of thing, after all.

**gravitywell**

I can see why reading it I might think the Falcon could upgrade any Shuriken Cannon... including the one that was already upgraded from twin-linked catapults. That sentence for that upgrade isn't specific... and grammatically they could have used the article "the" in several of the upgrade lines throughout the codex. I guess it is just point form sloppiness.

Is there anything explicit that says it can't be done? Or are we just going on precedent and the fact that the model doesn't come with that upgrade?

**Gangrel767**

gravitywell wrote:
I can see why reading it I might think the Falcon could upgrade any Shuriken Cannon... including the one that was already upgraded from twin-linked catapults. That sentence for that upgrade isn't specific... and grammatically they could have used the article "the" in several of the upgrade lines throughout the codex. I guess it is just point form sloppiness.

Is there anything explicit that says it can't be done? Or are we just going on precedent and the fact that the model doesn't come with that upgrade?

For me, it is both of those reasons in addition to the fact that all the other tanks with a chin catapult use the same terminology to upgrade the weapon. (May exchange twin-linked shuriken catapult for a shuriken cannon.). Though the falcon is the only one which presents this conundrum. To me that just means they meant for it to operate like the other vehicles, and now requires an FAQ.

I am definitely not disputing that RAW it is correct that you could upgrade the chin cannon, and then upgrade it further.... actually as I look again I believe you have the same issue with the vyper jetbike.

**Crimson**

Good catch with the Vyper.

Yeah, I don't think it is intended, although it would be cool if it was. Having nose-mounted scatter laser might make Falcon worth taking.

How was this worded in the previous codex?

**akaean**

Faolchu's Wing is dumb. Why would you ever take this for 30 points when you can take a Jetbike for 15? The Jetbike gives you toughness 4, 3+ armour save (nice on a farseer) and you still get a 12 inch move + 36 inch turbo boost. So basically the jetbike is just as fast, improves your tougness and armour save and is 15 points cheaper.

Anyway, I am on the Falcon side of the debate vs the Prism. I like having the consistancy of 3 s8 ap2 shots instead of relying on a single albiet more powerful shot for dealing with vehicles and 2+ save models from long range. I also really find the transport capacity useful while playing games as lots of things tend to happen in a battle, and having a spare transport to pick up a squad and relocate them has opened up a lot of options for me more than a few times.

**Gangrel767**

Crimson wrote:
Good catch with the Vyper.

Yeah, I don't think it is intended, although it would be cool if it was. Having nose-mounted scatter laser might make Falcon worth taking.

How was this worded in the previous codex?

In the previous codex the vehicles did not automatically come with a shuriken cannon, so there was no "upgrade the shuriken cannon" feature. which eliminates the confusion. You merely purchase a gun, and you have the option to upgrade the TL shuriken catapult.

akaean wrote:
Faolchu's Wing is dumb. Why would you ever take this for 30 points when you can take a Jetbike for 15?

The Jetbike gives you toughness 4, 3+ armour save (nice on a farseer) and you still get a 12 inch move + 36 inch turbo boost.

So basically the jetbike is just as fast, improves your toughness and armour save and is 15 points cheaper.

It's a little more situational. I do not disagree with you, but your opponent won't expect the foot character sitting in your backfield to run that far. On a jetbike, everyone knows he's a threat. With the wing... it could be a surprise, or something your opponent forget.

I agree with you though. I dont think it's worth 30. maybe in bigger games.

**gravitywell**

I think I saw some posts about it before, but I'm not clear...

A war-walker with 2 Scatter Lasers...

1 - Twin-linked scatter laser
or
2 - Fire one scatter laser, if a shot hits, the 2nd is twin-linked (due to laser lock from the first)
or
3 - Fire both scatter lasers, neither is twin-linked

I would have thought that the laser lock rule applies to one of them... and the second benefits (#3). But I might be missing a rule or some sort of precedent about two weapons both with a rule saying "role to hit with this weapon first".

**Uriels_Flame**

gravitywell wrote:
I can see why reading it I might think the Falcon could upgrade any Shuriken Cannon... including the one that was already upgraded from twin-linked catapults. That sentence for that upgrade isn't specific... and grammatically they could have used the article "the" in several of the upgrade lines throughout the codex. I guess it is just point form sloppiness.

Is there anything explicit that says it can't be done? Or are we just going on precedent and the fact that the model doesn't come with that upgrade?

I think we picked up this conversation piece on P 7 and decided we'd through it out to YMDC. Would be cool though.

**Crimson**

So, some people seem to think that Falcon is OK (even without abusing the Shuriken Cannon bug.) I thought they were kinda crap, but I'm willing to change my mind. What is better secondary weapon, Brightlance or Scatterlaser?

**Kirasu**

It's a little more situational. I do not disagree with you, but your opponent won't expect the foot character sitting in your backfield to run that far. On a jetbike, everyone knows he's a threat. With the wing... it could be a surprise, or something your opponent forget.

I agree with you though. I dont think it's worth 30. maybe in bigger games.

Can't say I'd want to use a strategy that involved a player forgetting a unit has wings.. over just using a vastly superior option.

**Gangrel767**

Kirasu wrote:

It's a little more situational. I do not disagree with you, but your opponent won't expect the foot character sitting in your backfield to run that far. On a jetbike, everyone knows he's a threat. With the wing... it could be a surprise, or something your opponent forget.

I agree with you though. I dont think it's worth 30. maybe in bigger games.

Can't say I'd want to use a strategy that involved a player forgetting a unit has wings.. over just using a vastly superior option.

I completely agree.

**Nevelon**

Crimson wrote:
So, some people seem to think that Falcon is OK (even without abusing the Shuriken Cannon bug.) I thought they were kinda crap, but I'm willing to change my mind. What is better secondary weapon, Brightlance or Scatterlaser?

My gut reaction is to go with the scatter. It lets you TL the pulse, but still keeps up a nice volume of mid-strenght fire. People better then I at the mathhammer can work out the details for which is pops tanks better. But if you find yourself shooting at infantry or MCs, I'd rather have the volume of fire from the scatter then the one extra lance hit.

Of course, if you frequently find yourself across the table from LRs, go for the lance.