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I picked up the codex this morning and my local store had 2 boxes of DA and still marked with a 33 dollar price tag. So i had to forgo buying a box wraithguard as the deal was to good to pass up. But i never really used the DA in the last dex and apparently there is a good reason the boxes went down to 5. I have a hard time seeing there value vs the new guardians. And having addition HW on the table has always been a good thing. What am i missing with and what new tactics have come into play with the new DA.

Thanks for the input...

I admit that heavy weapons, and the same number of bs4 shots for 2/3 price, are big bonuses for guardians (can also attach warlocks, for a suitable price). Dire avengers though have 4+armour and 18" range - these make a huge difference in the squad not being wiped out by return small-arms fire, flamers, or assault, which are huge dangers to the 12" range guardians.

Gut instinct - dire avengers for mechanised units, big squads of guardians with heavy weapons and a warlock for foot units.

Dire Avengers are your hammer, use them in mobile elements to strike forward and hit the enemy where it hurts. Guardians are your anvil, your cheapish wall of shooting to cut the foes of the craftworld to ribbons from the safety of cover while the aspect warriors lead the attack.

Apples and oranges really.

With battle trance the avengers are better for survival as the can reach a unit 24" away (6" move +18" range) then run a d6 with re-roll back and have a 4+ save but guardians will hit harder with more bodies within 12-18" range. I think lots of fearless guardians with an Avatar will make a good anchor while rangers and DA on the flanks to fold in on the enemy will be the best idea if going footdar.

I think the OP is asking a much better question than many people are likely to give him credit for. I think most people are so afraid of dying to AP5 fire that 12" Guardians are a no-go from the start for them. But in my hybrid lists they were already contributing by plinking away with Scatter Lasers while they protect Rangers who have no short-ranged offense to protect themselves with. That mix of long and short range fire was helpful in this support role.

Now Guardians have Pseudo-rending, great BS and have access to long-ranged heavy weapons that make them way more versatile than DAs. They actually shoot a bit harder than DAs due to that HWP and the potential for large squads. A Warlock can get them conceal 100% of the time, so they actually end up with better cover than Rangers.

As for mech armies, with mech mobility it is actually much easier to get Guardians into position to use their short range. DAs may be also good in this role, but 10 Guardians with a Shuriken Cannon and a Warlock makes 12 models in a Serpent and their firepower would hurt like hell against most infantry targets.

The composition of your army and your general strategy have to account for the ShuCat range and their poor armor. If you can, they should be a valuable unit to have in your force. But that is not to say anything penultimate about them. They're a cheap troops choice and few troops choices, cheap or not, are unstoppable killing machines. But they can do more than ever before and are a viable option even when compared to their aspect brethren. I intend to use them in most games and perhaps to buy a few more.

Guardians with a 2 plus save behind an adf will be cute for holding home objectives

When I first read the codex I thought that it was pretty clear cut that guardians were superior for mech, but now I'm not so sure. They're cheaper with same or better burst damage but DAs role is more for prolonged engagements. Better armour, much more capable in assault and that important 6" extra range is just a start, as the exarch also gives access to a true 5++ on the simmershield for the squad, a 4++ or even 3++ on his own and a 50% chance to deny a challenged opponent their weapon, all depending on how you kit him out.

I guess it can be summarized that if you want the unlock serpents and have a suicide unit cheap, take guardians, if you plan to tarpit or trade firefight, go with DAs. Either way they both have a place and are equally competitive

I have to say that I am definitely in the Guardian camp.

With a Warlock w/ Conceal - Guardians can easily get a 3+ cover save and when put in a Wave Serpent, the 12" range almost becomes a non-issue, especially when combined with Battle Focus.

With a 4pts difference between Dire Avengers and Guardians, I personally can't find the justification of a 4+ armour and +6" range, especially when considering the volume of AP4 in my meta.

Iranna.

Warlocks are a great benefit, but remember that LD8 is about a 3/4 chance of actually getting your psychic power off. (there is also the chance, which can be minimised by positioning, that your warlock will get picked off before most of his squadmates, and he always has to worry about perils)

So the protective benefits may fail you when you need them. Also the warlock raises the squad cost. 10 guardians+warlock is 125, 10 dire avengers is 130. I'm not saying warlocks are a bad upgrade, but remember you pay for what you get.

 Iranna wrote:
I have to say that I am definitely in the Guardian camp.

With a Warlock w/ Conceal - Guardians can easily get a 3+ cover save and when put in a Wave Serpent, the 12" range almost becomes a non-issue, especially when combined with Battle Focus.

With a 4pts difference between Dire Avengers and Guardians, I personally can't find the justification of a 4+ armour and +6" range, especially when considering the volume of AP4 in my meta.

Iranna.

My only issue with this stuff is that the wave serpents are so damn expensive this time around.