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Thank you so I just want to be clear Im dense sorry it only shoots in its front arc? Therefore what situation would it ever need to check leadership to not shoot? It seems that a smart player would never put the doom wheel facing your own troops. Thnx for all the help :}

nosferatu1001 wrote:
I am a skaven player, I was just pointing out the current rules that cover this

If you then decide to alter the rules that is fine, you just need to know that not everyone would play that way

Yes, it only shoots in your front arc. As for when? Easy. Charges have resulted in your troops now in front of the doom wheel.

My reading is the front arc but the gw store said its 360 so I will discuss with the gw storemore in depth. more comments welcome just want clear guidance being a new player thnx

GW stores are notorious for not understanding rules - because it isnt actually their job to.

Theyre thinking of 7th edition, when it was 360.; In 8th it is front arc.

Niteware wrote:
No, I was asking if it said the closest unit (which does imply that it could be 360º) or if it used some other language to indicate targets.

Given that this is a unique unit type, assuming that it follows standard rules seems like a bit of a jump. Especially since it can target friends and units in cc.

If it says "the closest unit", what gives you the right to add caveats?

I agree. Closest unit means the relevant criterion to define a legal target is distance and trumps the BRB rules.

Only where there is a conflict is this true.

To take an easy example from 40k - an allowance to charge after disembarking a vehicle does not mean you can charge having arrived from reserves, after firing a rapid fire / heavy weapon, etc.

Well at my local GW shop the ruling was it shoots 360 as the rule says nearest unit regardless of LOS or terrain. It may also be worth noting the model has nodes to shoot in the front and the sides.
thnx for all the help

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Only where there is a conflict is this true.

As in this case.

I have no idea what 40k matters or what its rules are. They are insubstantial to the question at hand.

I found out what the "best" answer to this question as both answers are fine by me as long as I know in advance:
I ask the TO / my opponent before the tournament / game begins, and just rolls with what decision is achieved
I'm happy in both cases and there's no conflict arising

And so far everyone considered that it's 360 degrees by the way

+1. The question never came up in the last 5 years, and I've been playing against a whole lotta Skaven.

 Mike der Ritter wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Only where there is a conflict is this true.

As in this case.

Please find the conflict then, without making rules up, like you did in the post I was responding to.

You are told to fire at the nearest target. Nowhere does it state you can fire at a target out of arc. So there is no conflict between the armybook and the rulebook.

Same as being asked to charged the nearest enemy. Does this let you charge out of LOS, arc, through a building, etc? No? Gee, guess this is the same....

Mike der RitterI wrote:have no idea what 40k matters or what its rules are. They are insubstantial to the question at hand.

Inconsequential or irrelevant would be a more relevant term.

It matters when it is an illustration of "conflict", as you appear to suffer from a misunderstanding of what the term means in a permissive ruleset

Warhammernut - LOS != arc of sight. This is a change to 8th edition from prior editions.

People used to playing prior editions are likely to not spot changes like this - rule blindness. It happens. The correct thing to do is point it out.

It i s like claiming a cannon can place the initial "mark" out of LOS of the cannon. This is impossible in 8th edition, yet is still incorrectly played that way at a number of tournaments. Doesnt make it any less wrong (or, rather, that everyone is subconcsiously playing a hosuerule)

The rules are actually crystal on this - an allowance to ignore LOS has no bearing on your ability to ignore another, totally different restriction. Sayiong otherwise menas you do not understand permissive systems.

Usually, if told to charge the nearest enemy, you are also told to spin to face it.

In the doom wheel, does it say closest target or closest unit? Closest target would def be front arc, closest unit is not the same and does not imply a targetable unit.

Which doesnt alter if you have a building (or other impassable like terrain) that would physically stop you cmopleting the charge

Being told to charge the nearest unit lifts exactly as many restrictions as being told to shoot the nearest unit - none. Only those restrictions explicitly lifted (ignoring LOS, for example) would be ignored.

Agreed, except that the wheel, iirc, does have alll those restrictions lifted. I could see it beinf forced to face the nearest unit in order to shoot it, but "nearest unit in front arc" seems very different from "nearest unit".

Then where does it lift the restrictions?

Page and paragraph where it states you can shoot at the nearest unit, regardless of LOS AND Arc of Sight

this is unlikely given 7th edition considered the two to be the same, but, given you contention is these restrictions are lifted then you can show the rules for this?

This one is interesting and can go both ways,

Most units have to shoot from their forward ark. However DoomWheels are not like most units. They are Unique. The Zzzzap shoots more like a War Machine than a bow or Gun.

I just reread the book about 5 times to make sure I was reading it correctly then compared it to the BRB. The Skaven book states, "... will strike the Nearest Unit (Friend or Foe) regardless of X and Y....". “Strike” is not target. If it was Target then you would use ark of site. However it specifically states “strikes the nearest unit”, It also uses an Artillery Dice, can Misfire unlike other bows/guns. As such it shoots more like a War Machine for all intensive purposes. Based on the words from the Army Book, which override the BRB. You should select the closest unit, be it in front, on the side or behind and strike at it. There are numerous items in the Skaven book that do just as much damage to themselves as they do to the Enemy. So this is no way strange for a Skaven Unit to hurt themselves.

Everywhere I have played people has used the 360 ark to detrain the closet unit. I have seen one Doomwheel, take out two others in the same turn.

"Arc"
"Intents and purposes"

Sorry, pet peeves there.

"strike" must mean target, otherwise it doesnt get to use the shooting rules.

It has the restriction on X and Y lifted, but does not lift the restriction on Z. What gives you permission to lift the restriction on Z?

"strike" must mean target, otherwise it doesnt get to use the shooting rules.

Good thing the doomwheel doesn't use the normal shooting rules I guess?

Anyway, even if you are right, everyone else I met (in about 6 different countries, about 25+ clubs) play it as "Doomwheel doesn't give a damn about arc of sight", so I guess we'll just all continue to bath ourselves in blissfull ignorance

Yep, and same as the largest tournaments in the UK still let people play cannon as they did in 7th, by being able to place the initial target point out of LOS of the cannon.

Lots of people being ignorant of the rule, or not realising things have changed quite markedly between 7th and 8th (like the swap from 4th to 5th 40k) doesnt mean they are "right". De jure is not the same as de facto.

I wonder why they put the leadership to avoid shooting the warp lightning in as a rule.?
Compulsory moves come after charges and you move like a chariot
A player can easily keep all their units out of front arc the There is no reason to test against leadership.
Isn't it written somewhere that rules in your army book take precedence over the rule book?
So when a rule states that it effects all units within 6" like the luminarc or hurricanum..does that only apply to units in their front arc?
The doom wheel strikes the closest 3 units within 18"
Under the same restrictions people are applying to the doom wheel it must.

Do you have any rules to argue with here, or just arguing how you would play it?

You haven't as yet presented anything that can be argued

Yes.
Let me clarify.
According to the assumption that the doom wheels lightning is in the front arc..the hurricanum must be front arc also.
I believe this to be incorrect.
The doom wheel is a 360 degree lightning as is the luminark.
Both of their rules state ... with in x"

It's already been debated a lot, so far the results of the debate are:
nosferatu plays it "front arc"
everyone else on the thread playd it "360"

he won't budge whatever you say or offer to argue, so I stopped

More Doomwheel Questions, I just started playing Skaven. so here are some questions If a Doomwheel,rallies, does it then move in the remaining moves phase and shoot in the shooting phase. Rally RAW says you can not move, or shoot after ralling, but Random movement states that you always move in the remaining moves, phase, and doomwhell states that you always shoot int he shooting phase. Also where are the rulls for shotting into CC that the doom wheel is not in.. /if the Nearest unit, is also in combat. who gets hit?

Doomwheel always shoots, even when fleeing or rallying, that's a given
Never looked at it moving after rallying though, don't know about it
When it shoots into CC, it just hit the closest units as usual
Note that it might hit several units this way, if the first or second Zzzap kills its target, as usual

edit: I just scoured the BRB and my findings are
Basic rule: rallying units can't move
Advanced rule: random movements units HAVE to move
Adv rule trumps basic rule --> rallying Wheel has to move

Ok, I might have found an answer to the who the Doomwheel shoots. It comes down to Basic vrs advanced rools. Basic Rule, Modesl require AOC and LOS to target an enemy, Advanced rule, Zapp shots target the nearest Unit regardless of ZXY. BRB states, Advanced rules override Basic So because the Doomwheel does not say Nears Target, it says Nearest Unit, It would not use AOC to select a target. It simply shoots at the target that is closest to the model.

The Movement came up in my game today,

cawizkid wrote:
Basic Rule, Modesl require AOC and LOS to target an enemy, Advanced rule, Zapp shots target the nearest Unit regardless of ZXY.

I missed the underlined bit, it seems. Which entry was that?

Peasant wrote:
Yes.
Let me clarify.
According to the assumption that the doom wheels lightning is in the front arc..the hurricanum must be front arc also.
I believe this to be incorrect.
The doom wheel is a 360 degree lightning as is the luminark.
Both of their rules state ... with in x"

The luminark is a spell not a shooting effect. It has a classification and power level requirement. It follows the rules of the spell type which I believe is magic missile. The luminark follows those rules. It's been a while since I've been looking at the ska em version but it doesn't happen in the magic phase? Or does it? Either way, it has no spell type thus it follows the rules of its own description.

While I don't agree that it's front arc only, I believe this is a false analogy and it needed to be clarified

Peasant wrote:Yes.
Let me clarify.
According to the assumption that the doom wheels lightning is in the front arc..the hurricanum must be front arc also.
I believe this to be incorrect.
The doom wheel is a 360 degree lightning as is the luminark.
Both of their rules state ... with in x"

So found a specific rule overriding the requirement that you fire in front arc?

TanKoL wrote:It's already been debated a lot, so far the results of the debate are:
nosferatu plays it "front arc"
everyone else on the thread playd it "360"

he won't budge whatever you say or offer to argue, so I stopped

Given you failed to provide a single rules quote, or indeed any actual argument based on the rules of the game we play, why would I "budge" given my position does follow the rules of the game?

A lot of people play that cannon can target a point anywhere on the table, disregarding true LOS. Doesnt mean they are right by the rules.

You can play a houserule all you like. It would behoove you, however, to realise this and ensure people are happy with your houserule before playing. Assuming otherwise is an unsafe position.

Oh, and you make a critical failure in arguments - you assume I play any way or the other. Dont. Thanks!

Nearest unit seems to override the usual targeting. That is a rules arguement. Some people agree with it, some disagree. It IS still a rules arguement.